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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #681  
Old 07-28-2017, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uparmor View Post
Back in the day i could buy 5 gal buckets full of 993 projectiles at the gs for 50 bucks.
Considering that you could sell a single 993/995 projectile today for at least $5, too bad you didn't keep some. Not sure how you lucked out, since 993 and 995 have never been released to the general public. That GS must not have known what they had.
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  #682  
Old 07-28-2017, 2:27 PM
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What is the current state of the art and should I be OK with SAPIs and backers when the mountain people come and raise hell in town?
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  #683  
Old 07-28-2017, 5:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Droppin Deuces View Post
What is the current state of the art and should I be OK with SAPIs and backers when the mountain people come and raise hell in town?
SAPIs are outdated at this point, though they will still work, and you would want to get them X-Rayed prior to use. It also depends on what threat you are expecting. If you need black tip protection, a multi-hit Level IV like the Midwest FM4 is a good choice. If thinner plates that will stop all 5.56 and most 7.62x39 (but not .308) are more your speed, the Midwest STX plates are still extremely nice.

Backers should be worn with all rifle plates, regardless of whether they are considered "stand alone."
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  #684  
Old 07-28-2017, 9:43 PM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Considering that you could sell a single 993/995 projectile today for at least $5, too bad you didn't keep some. Not sure how you lucked out, since 993 and 995 have never been released to the general public. That GS must not have known what they had.
It gets worse.....

I bought 3 buckets, reloaded ammo and went plinking in the desert with my real german made hk91 that i sold.
The seller said it was mil pull downs that didnt meet spec.

Kicking self forever!
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  #685  
Old 07-28-2017, 10:54 PM
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man is that stuff really $1000 a plate? That's crazy.
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  #686  
Old 07-29-2017, 11:30 AM
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Originally Posted by osis32 View Post
man is that stuff really $1000 a plate? That's crazy.
Yes. But then, it is important to look at the specs:

Multi-hit level IV. Standard level IV is ONLY rated for a single round.

Exceptionally light/thin for type.

Good Company, with a good rep.

If you want the best plates available as a private citizen, these would be the top of the heap. And quality is never cheap.
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  #687  
Old 07-29-2017, 5:07 PM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
SAPIs are outdated at this point, though they will still work, and you would want to get them X-Rayed prior to use. It also depends on what threat you are expecting. If you need black tip protection, a multi-hit Level IV like the Midwest FM4 is a good choice. If thinner plates that will stop all 5.56 and most 7.62x39 (but not .308) are more your speed, the Midwest STX plates are still extremely nice.

Backers should be worn with all rifle plates, regardless of whether they are considered "stand alone."
Got it, thanks. So, assuming that the majority of mountain and hill people are working with bulk m193 up to M80 ball and mostly from a distance of 100m or greater, I should be OK with SAPI's?
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  #688  
Old 07-29-2017, 6:56 PM
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I get it d-r I was not trying to talk smack I'm just not used to seeing those kind of prices. my life isn't worth that much haha.
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  #689  
Old 07-30-2017, 9:46 AM
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I get it d-r I was not trying to talk smack I'm just not used to seeing those kind of prices. my life isn't worth that much haha.
Absolutely didn't think you were. The sticker shock is a big one. But yes, your life is worth that much.
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  #690  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by d-r View Post
Whose left nut did you have to sell to get M993?
haha, it was only about the price of 100 rounds of 9mm HST, for just those two..

Now I do have some M995 and AP4 (heavier version of M995), and some 152gr tungsten .308 I'm working on next!
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  #691  
Old 09-09-2017, 10:43 AM
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Here was that Engarde vs .300 WM;



The beauty of PE plates. They stop high velocity but fall short of steel core ammo. This 2.5lb plate stops M193 :O
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  #692  
Old 09-14-2017, 12:38 PM
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The Firearms Blog has 2 guest posts on body armor today:

Choosing the right armor and Ceramic vs Steel

I don't think there's much different here from what's already in the thread, but maybe the all-in-1-place part would be useful.
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  #693  
Old 09-15-2017, 6:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
The Firearms Blog has 2 guest posts on body armor today:

Choosing the right armor and Ceramic vs Steel

I don't think there's much different here from what's already in the thread, but maybe the all-in-1-place part would be useful.
Had high hopes for the article and dispersion of good armor knowledge....alas there are multiple errors. The first comment by "kjack" sums it up nicely. So, below is a copy& paste of his comment which were my exact thoughts as I read- glad he beat me to it.



I'd like to know more about a few parts of this.

>These plates (UHMWPE) are generally going to be the lightest and or thinnest level 3 plates available.

Last I checked, UHMWPE plates tend to be the thickest.

>A pure Polyethylene plate can be defeated by a single round of M193 or M855

I know M855 is a problem for UHMWPE plates, but I have never heard of M193 being a problem for them.

>Low-visibility/ concealment.
Steel can be thin, yet stop rifle threat rounds, hence its usefulness in
concealment scenarios. However, Ceramic/ Polyethylene technology has
reached a point where steel is obsolete for this role.

Concealment under what? I can conceal a hell of a lot under a coat. I can't conceal a .5" thick ceramic plate strapped to my chest under a loose shirt. Steel in this case would still have an advantage being that it's generally .2"-.25" thick.

>Spalling is a major concern for all steel armor

There is a group called Sierra 12 (I'm not going to be able to link it because my posts don't go through when I post links) that did some tests where they had ballistics gel blocks around a bare steel plate when shooting it. All but one round penetrated under 1" into the ballistics gelatin (which is comparable to what an airsoft gun will do and will not break skin in practice) and one round managed 3" of penetration (which is less than what is expected of the calibration BB and still might not break skin).

>Steel is a rigid and hard material, when a
bullet strikes it, the energy will “pass through” the steel and into
the chest of the wearer.

If the plate is struck at the
right place, depending on how strong your bones are, it may break your
sternum and puncture your heart.

What the hell are you talking about here and do you have any scientific basis for this claim? How is steel going to magically focus the energy on your bones in a way that could kill you while simultaneously not exceeding maximum backface deformation standards?
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  #694  
Old 09-16-2017, 7:38 AM
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Doc,

Is the largest reasoning for ICW ratings with plates to reduce back face deformation or is the soft armor actually expected to stop the bullet after being slowed by the plate (partial penetration, spall, etc)?

Is it to achieve the multi-hit rating?

I been using VS Special Threat plates (standalone) but recently picked up a set that is lighter and thinner than the Velocity with same threat protection but requires IIIA.

Wouldn't second guess putting soft armor behind the plate but curious as to why.

Last edited by patriot_man; 09-16-2017 at 7:48 AM..
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  #695  
Old 09-19-2017, 6:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot_man View Post
Doc,

Is the largest reasoning for ICW ratings with plates to reduce back face deformation or is the soft armor actually expected to stop the bullet after being slowed by the plate (partial penetration, spall, etc)?

Is it to achieve the multi-hit rating?

I been using VS Special Threat plates (standalone) but recently picked up a set that is lighter and thinner than the Velocity with same threat protection but requires IIIA.

Wouldn't second guess putting soft armor behind the plate but curious as to why.
P_Man,

ICW plates are engineered with the assumption that the soft armor is part of the backing. It is nominally there to meet the BFD requirements (44mm in Roma Plastalina), but also to catch any backface spallation. Generally, rounds that are overmatch tend to fragment pretty heavily when impacting ceramic strike faces, so the soft armor has a reasonable chance of catching it.

As a general rule, I advocate wearing soft armor behind all hard armor, regardless of ICW or standalone.
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  #696  
Old 09-19-2017, 6:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DeliveryBoy View Post
Had high hopes for the article and dispersion of good armor knowledge....alas there are multiple errors. The first comment by "kjack" sums it up nicely. So, below is a copy& paste of his comment which were my exact thoughts as I read- glad he beat me to it.



I'd like to know more about a few parts of this.

>These plates (UHMWPE) are generally going to be the lightest and or thinnest level 3 plates available.

Last I checked, UHMWPE plates tend to be the thickest.

>A pure Polyethylene plate can be defeated by a single round of M193 or M855

I know M855 is a problem for UHMWPE plates, but I have never heard of M193 being a problem for them.

>Low-visibility/ concealment.
Steel can be thin, yet stop rifle threat rounds, hence its usefulness in
concealment scenarios. However, Ceramic/ Polyethylene technology has
reached a point where steel is obsolete for this role.

Concealment under what? I can conceal a hell of a lot under a coat. I can't conceal a .5" thick ceramic plate strapped to my chest under a loose shirt. Steel in this case would still have an advantage being that it's generally .2"-.25" thick.

>Spalling is a major concern for all steel armor

There is a group called Sierra 12 (I'm not going to be able to link it because my posts don't go through when I post links) that did some tests where they had ballistics gel blocks around a bare steel plate when shooting it. All but one round penetrated under 1" into the ballistics gelatin (which is comparable to what an airsoft gun will do and will not break skin in practice) and one round managed 3" of penetration (which is less than what is expected of the calibration BB and still might not break skin).

>Steel is a rigid and hard material, when a
bullet strikes it, the energy will “pass through” the steel and into
the chest of the wearer.

If the plate is struck at the
right place, depending on how strong your bones are, it may break your
sternum and puncture your heart.

What the hell are you talking about here and do you have any scientific basis for this claim? How is steel going to magically focus the energy on your bones in a way that could kill you while simultaneously not exceeding maximum backface deformation standards?
The whole post was, sadly, facepalm-worthy. The comments are examples of third-hand "knowledge" and hearsay.

UHMWPE are never going to be the thinnest plates. They will always be thickest for equivalent protection.
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  #697  
Old 09-19-2017, 9:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by d-r View Post
The whole post was, sadly, facepalm-worthy. The comments are examples of third-hand "knowledge" and hearsay.

UHMWPE are never going to be the thinnest plates. They will always be thickest for equivalent protection.
+1. Typically UHMWPE plate can stop high velocity threats (m193), but will fall short when you mix steel into the round (m855), at least from my testing..
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  #698  
Old 09-20-2017, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Buffman View Post
+1. Typically UHMWPE plate can stop high velocity threats (m193), but will fall short when you mix steel into the round (m855), at least from my testing..
From my tests, the mechanism of action for stopping the round is frictive braking, and because M193 is compressible, it is able to be stopped. M855, because the tip/core is steel, and non-compressible, is able to penetrate.
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