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  #361  
Old 04-27-2017, 1:46 PM
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Heard back from RCBS, here is what Mr Meyers said. I even initially spelled his name wrong. Sounds same, spelled different.

Quote:
Mr. xxxxxx, I was asked to contact you to answer a couple of questions you had about our dies;

Our dies are made from 12L14 and case hardened to a depth of about .006 at 62-65 C scale.

Thank You for choosing RCBS
So Randall, you were spot on. RCBS must have a freak'n huge "gas carburizing" oven to keep up with production.

The question of SMP for new CH-D4 dies will remain a mystery. Person I spoke to, said they do not give out "proprietary info". It may be that with their hardness quote of .030", they may be doing what I though they did. But again maybe not.

With the small percentage of the OP's cases, which fail to chamber. I still contend that a simple "push through" base sizing die on a 7/8-14 body would solve his problem. As well as added advantage, of not breaking down rounds, and possibly harming those expensive bullets.

JM2c
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  #362  
Old 04-27-2017, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by pacrat View Post
So Randall, you were spot on. RCBS must have a freak'n huge "gas carburizing" oven to keep up with production.
Someone who used to work at reloading die maker once told me they also used 12L14, but I didn't mention it because my research into case hardening said that 12L14 was not a good choice for case hardening.
Perhaps that's why the case depth is only around 0.006"...
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Last edited by ar15barrels; 04-27-2017 at 8:22 PM..
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  #363  
Old 04-27-2017, 9:25 PM
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Hello Pacrat, ar15barrels and other contributors to this thread. I've been busy for a couple of days.

In a holding pattern pending the disposition of the damaged extractor

Ejector.jpg

This part will be upgraded as previously described.
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  #364  
Old 04-27-2017, 9:35 PM
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To packrat & ar15barrels, I'm just catching up on the last pager here myself. Doing so again, it again becomes apparent to me, that you both know a LOT more about this than I do. So, to you this path leads to an assured outcome.

Whereas, to me, this seems like nothing but a path fraught with uncertainty.

To five five six, chambering each round individually is exactly what I thought seemed like the smart way to check check each of these rounds, perhaps two pages ago. . .

As you or someone else said there's an 'a' pile, and a 'b' pile. The 'b' pile get taken apart.

pacrat, sir, I have an FL body die. This was THE problem. That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 04-27-2017 at 9:47 PM..
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  #365  
Old 04-27-2017, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by sfarchitect View Post
That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.
This is NORMAL for almost all reloading dies.
The shelholder accounts for 1/8" of that length.
Exactly 0.125" as that is the standard depth of shellholders and the dies are dimensioned so they will size the shoulder to the correct length when against the shellholder.
Then you have a chamfer at the bottom of the die so that it does not scrape up cases that are not aligned properly as you attempt to slide the case into the die.
This can account for up to another 1/16" to even 1/8" or more in some dies.

Experienced reloaders know to watch for this and to avoid buying brass that has been previously fired in a chamber larger than they want to use the brass in.
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  #366  
Old 04-27-2017, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sfarchitect View Post
To packrat & ar15barrels, I'm just catching up on the last pager here myself. Doing so again, it again becomes apparent to me, that you both know a LOT more about this than I do. So, to you this path leads to an assured outcome.

Whereas, to me, this seems like nothing but a path fraught with uncertainty.


pacrat, sir, I have an FL body die. This was THE problem. That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.
As to the underlined, Here we are, 18 days and 365 posts later. 1st day, Post #30, Randall said to use a steel rod with a brass sleeve to punch out the stuck round. I said the same thing several times, but a copper sleeve. Yet it took you 12 days to unstick it. The wait for a "brass" rod, just took more time, and assured you would have to beat on it more, because of the properties of the brass rod.

As a Noob to this stuff, I can understand your trepidation. It is a very expensive "Derringer". And you had a mishap that was far beyond your experience. People have been driving stuck cases/ammo out of barrels since cartridge guns were invented. Scale is the only difference. It doesn't matter if it is a .22 RF or a .338 LM. Problem is same, solution is same.

Surprise, nothing blew up and the world didn't end. And you didn't have to resort to the dreaded "liquid jelly bean hydraulics" to clear it. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

As to the bold. Yeah, I've known since 1968 that a FL die isn't actually a FL die. I told you "why in post #209. And again in Post #325 explains why in detail. So does Randall's last post. A SB [small base] die with no mouth chamfer "MAY" solve your bulged base issue. A "Push Through Die" is the ONLY way to ASSURE the problem WILL be solved.

Quote:
The 'b' pile get taken apart.
Because you don't have a "push through" base sizing die.

JM2c

Last edited by pacrat; 04-28-2017 at 2:42 PM..
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  #367  
Old 04-30-2017, 8:53 PM
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Well sir, you may have known that since 1968. I however learned in April of 2017. I guess at the early stages of this thread I didn't even know the right questions to sort the knowledgable folks from the merely opinionated?

I used a brass rod because I know just enough a out the properties of materials to understand that a brass rod will be hard pressed to any kind of damage to my steel barrel. Using a steel rod to get the stuck round out, again, to me, seemed like a profoundly bad idea. This weapon was, again to me, a significant investment. Undertaken in a narrow window of opportunity. If it took me another few days to gather enough knowledge being comfortable making that decision, I'm OK with that sir. I very much appreciate the help you and other provided here.

As has been repeatedly stated, I am not, an experienced reloader.

I guess I'm still learning about push through resizing dies. I'm trying to weigh the cost of the push through die, that apparently I cannot even use on my dillon 50 press, against the cost of just buying new Lapua Brass.

So yes to another earlier comment, knowing what I know now, perhaps the recommendation about "finding a source of 'once fired' military Lapua brass" was not in fact the best advice I received. Do I wish I knew al of these beforehand, sure. But I am now reasonably 'committed' to this path. At least it gives me the opportunity to acquire further 'once fired' brass. I am not the 'second-guesser' type. I made the decisions I made based on the information I had available at the time. Live & learn right. Is it reasonable to think I might have somehow unearthed this very specific relatively obscure piece of information before I bought that pile of 'once fired' Lapua brass? I think its certainly reasonable to say, its pretty unlikely.

The BC has gone back to AA for warranty repair & upgrade of the extractor.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 04-30-2017 at 9:24 PM..
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  #368  
Old 04-30-2017, 11:24 PM
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Just in case it hasn't been mentioned-

When your Hornady die is in, you can buy a Lee press which has a 1 1/4" top thread for $150-ish bucks.

I have an RCBS single stage with 1 1/2" top for reloading .50 (and smaller with the adapter in), but I picked up some LEe dies in .577 snider and .450-577 which needed the 1 1/4" thread.
I found an adapter online, but the damn thing cost so much it was cheaper to buy the Lee press. Not sure it has the easy power to handle .338, but it'll get you going.

I do all large calibers on the single stage. Realistically, what will you shoot, 20, 50 rounds? IT would take longer for me to set up the progressive to crank out even 100-200 rounds than just knocking them out on the single stage.

For something like the.338 I would be hand prepping the brass, uniforming the primer pockets, and all the other bench shooter fixings. Probably wouldn't notice it on a semi, but it makes me feel better

-Dave

BTW, standard redding dies (and Dillon for that matter) are not 'small base' dies, which is what you need. I have a couple .308 match guns with chambers so tight they won't work unless I resize the brass with a specific .308 small base die.
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  #369  
Old 05-01-2017, 3:04 AM
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That is COOL. Why isn't this mandatory gear for all ranges?
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  #370  
Old 05-01-2017, 5:43 AM
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This thread reminds me of Dianne Feinstein, it just won't die.
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  #371  
Old 05-01-2017, 2:09 PM
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Quote:
As has been repeatedly stated, I am not, an experienced reloader.
That Sir, is abundantly clear. And that, is not meant or implied to be a condescending statement. Nobody "starts" reloading knowing even a fraction of the multitude of problems and variables involved. Everybody starts as a FNG, and builds experience over time. As problems are faced and overcome. Sometimes by trial and error. Other times, by learning from the experience of those that came before. And not repeating "their" mistakes.

Your "brass rod" choice cost you a lot of time. And was not the "optimal" solution, to start with. Physical properties of "brass" make it a poor choice for the purpose. You based your decision on a faulty premise. Every nation in the world issues "STEEL" cleaning rods for their weapons systems. There are reasons for that. Trying wooden dowels was a big mistake. And could have created an exponential increase in your difficulties.

It's out now, so moving forward.

Quote:
I guess I'm still learning about push through resizing dies. I'm trying to weigh the cost of the push through die, that apparently I cannot even use on my dillon 50 press, against the cost of just buying new Lapua Brass.
You also cannot use the 1 1/4" BigBoy die you ordered at great expense, in your Dillon. So you still need a Single Stage, or access to one, to correct problems caused by that the limitations of the Dillon fail to address. There is NO solution to your bulged case issue that can be resolved on a Dillon.

Not a big problem. As was advised by others, in your early posts in the "Reloading Forum" before you even got the rifle. Which I quickly perused last night. You need one anyway, for proper reloading of a big case like your 338. You don't have to "buy new". Nobody can "wear out" a quality single stage. Mine was made in 1967 and I got it used about 1970. And it can be bolted to a 12" x 12" piece of plywood and simply "clamped" to your kitchen table when needed.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rcbs-rock-ch...0AAOSwjqVZBROM

Quote:
So yes to another earlier comment, knowing what I know now, perhaps the recommendation about "finding a source of 'once fired' military Lapua brass" was not in fact the best advice I received. Do I wish I knew al of these beforehand, sure. But I am now reasonably 'committed' to this path. At least it gives me the opportunity to acquire further 'once fired' brass. I am not the 'second-guesser' type. I made the decisions I made based on the information I had available at the time. Live & learn right. Is it reasonable to think I might have somehow unearthed this very specific relatively obscure piece of information before I bought that pile of 'once fired' Lapua brass? I think its certainly reasonable to say, its pretty unlikely.
Once fired military cases are certainly a viable source of less expensive components. Entire businesses are built on the concept. Supply and Demand. What was not taken into consideration. Was the issues than can arise by using those same cases. [bulged bases] Which is not an obscure problem, it is actually quite common. Someone was remiss in not advising you of this possibility at the onset. Use of Mil Fired cases SOP quite often requires that those cases be "reconditioned" in an appropriate manner to make them usable in commercial chambers. Simply resizing with a FL die, that isn't really FL, as you found out too late. Isn't the solution.

That is the link in the SOP chain that was missed, because you didn't know to check for it. You placed yourself on a very accelerated learning curve by jumping in with a .338 LM for a beginner. Missteps are to be expected. Which can and will lead to problems.

Live and learn........you bet, life itself is a learning experience.

The ONLY reason that "push through dies" are not an OTC item for cases like yours. Is that there is no commercially viable market for them.

Same goes for many aspects of the shooting sports. Many "common cartridges" that are today OTC. Spent decades as "wildcats" before they became commercially viable.

edit........changed "caused by" to "fail to address".

Last edited by pacrat; 05-01-2017 at 9:57 PM..
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  #372  
Old 05-01-2017, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
...Perhaps that's why the case depth is only around 0.006"...
Randall, I'm thinking that's a typo and he meant .060? I've never heard of case hardening less than about .035 or .040.
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  #373  
Old 05-02-2017, 12:25 AM
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Randall, I'm thinking that's a typo and he meant .060? I've never heard of case hardening less than about .035 or .040.
I'm quite sure Mr Meyers meant .006" because he used that dim. in another Email to me. In that correspondence, in reply to a second question from me. He did say that the heat required to get the surface hardness carburized to .006" which is hours in the oven. That the heat, and controlled cool down cycles, does increase internal hardness somewhat. But is not the purpose of the process.

"Case Hardened" is a very broad term used to describe "Carburizing". See the link I posted.

I've used "Kasenit" to get hardness down to about .003-.005" in my home shop. This type of surface hardening is done using a torch or other high heat source. Also "Color Case Hardened" parts using old school Bone Meal and Charcoal powder sealed in a black iron container in a forge. It is much thinner. And not all that hard, but very pretty.

Really big parts like 30" dia dynamo shafts can be cooked in a carburizing vacuum chamber. Down to a depth of .250" or so. But takes over 200 hrs at close to 2,000*F. With cool down cycles that take weeks to accomplish.
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  #374  
Old 05-02-2017, 1:09 AM
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Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
Randall, I'm thinking that's a typo and he meant .060? I've never heard of case hardening less than about .035 or .040.
I think it's because 12L14 does not really take to hardening.
Perhaps if you subjected 8620 to a similar carburizing, you would get a more realistic 0.035" of case depth.
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  #375  
Old 05-02-2017, 4:32 PM
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Talking about wood dowels, I know a guy who stuck not two, but THREE chopsticks in a barrel (you know who you are!).

How we got them out warrants a thread of its own

-Dave
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  #376  
Old 05-02-2017, 5:46 PM
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Yes I understand I cannot use the 1-1/4" die in my Dillon 550. Yes I will eventually have to buy one. But I live in a 648 Sqft apartment. That day will come. But in the meantime I am reasonably certain that it will cost me, not more than a twelve pack of beer each time I want to use one of my buddies single stage presses for a couple of hours.

Yes I was fortunate I had no problems with the wooden dowels. Lesson learned. While waiting for the brass rod might have cost me some time, I'm OK with that. This is a pricey weapon. While yes they make steel cleaning rods, you do not use a finish, or later a framing hammer on a cleaning rod. I did on that brass rod. I do understand now about the copper or brass sleeve. I was skeptical of my ability to execute that earlier however, so I often for the brass.

I got a lot of good advice in my previous "newb reloader" thread and this one. Was it perfect, no, but what is? Again, to me, this is the 'highest and best' use of the interwebs. I got enough information to sort through the chaff and find the important insights. Again, I'm extremely thankful for everyone time, advice and comments. Even the stuff I didn't use. It all lead me to thinking critically and helped me work the problem.

Once again, it is clear several of you know way(!) more about metallurgy than I do. While that is not saying much, I do understand enough to ask one question: One one hand you tell me I could have saved money by buying an off the shelf GR-X or some other such through die. But then you advise me to have someone bore it out which will remove the heat treated surface?

I ordered the purpose built and spec'd Hornady die. I'm going to stick with that. Even if it cost me more.

I've done enough specifying of materials professionally to be wary of using things for purposes other than what they were designed for. Even without having to bore them out and remove any surface heat treatment.

That said, once again, thank you everyone for your input. It is now officially time to put this thread to rest. Namaste.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 05-02-2017 at 5:48 PM..
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  #377  
Old 05-02-2017, 7:50 PM
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Quote:
Once again, it is clear several of you know way(!) more about metallurgy than I do. While that is not saying much, I do understand enough to ask one question: One one hand you tell me I could have saved money by buying an off the shelf GR-X or some other such through die. But then you advise me to have someone bore it out which will remove the heat treated surface?

I ordered the purpose built and spec'd Hornady die. I'm going to stick with that. Even if it cost me more.

I've done enough specifying of materials professionally to be wary of using things for purposes other than what they were designed for. Even without having to bore them out and remove any surface heat treatment.
In answer to your question..........AGAIN. I'm old, OK that I readily admit. But I'm not yet senile. I remember what I did and did not advise. There has never been a "But then You" involved in the push through advisement. I will refer you to post #350, and this excerpt from it. Which was prompted by your question in #349. Quoted first, for reference.

Quote:
Again, for the third time, there is no push through die for a 338LM that I have been able to find.

Quote:
In reverse chronological order. Four times, I explained I was talking about a Non Stock Part.

Quote:
post 325....
It is not a "stock part" hence the modified. It is what they call their GR-x die. Made in steel and carbide. You would need the steel body, anybody with a lathe and the skill to use it could make the "modification". Which amounts to opening the ID and polishing, to appropriate diameter.

Quote:
post 307....
[2]...Not Necessarily. The aforementioned modified Redding "Push Through Die" allows "safely sizing" the web of loaded rounds.

Quote:
post 265....
I truly believe that the [KISS] modified Redding GR-X push through die will solve your problem.

Quote:
post....252
In retrospect I now suggest. That OP get a Redding [steel not carbide] GR-x die and have it opened up [modified] to appropriate dia.

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/35...FQuifgoduu4PTg

<snip>
Easily modified to suit your required need.

In Your Own post 242, you acknowledged that I was describing a modified "Push Through".

Quote:
If the modified "bulge buster' will not work on my Dillon press.

I cannot understand why after all this time you are being obtuse about finding one made for a 338 LM.
I did not, and would not, send you on a blind UNICORN hunt. A "MODIFIED" push through has always been what I suggested. NO such thing exists to OTC fit a 338 LM.

So I now have to ask. Have you even read this lengthy thread you started? And paid attention to the relevant information given by those you admit have much more experience and knowledge than yourself?

As to the loss of "Surface heat treatment" that is a NON ISSUE. Any of the suggested experienced Firearms related METALSMITHS. Would, as part of SOP of opening a die dia. EASILY, resurface harden it using any number of products they already have in their shops. Kasenit and Cherry Red, just to name a few of the options. And this also has already been discussed, between Randall and myself on this thread.
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  #378  
Old 05-02-2017, 8:58 PM
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Quote:
So I now have to ask. Have you even read this lengthy thread you started? And paid attention to the relevant information given by those you admit have much more experience and knowledge than yourself?
No pacrat, I just made all of this up. . . purely to entertain myself because I have nothing else to do with my time and wanted the attention.

Yes, I read every post, most I read multiple times in fact. Sometimes wondering what the hell people were thinking, or what they were on, and sometimes trying to follow what was being said.

I've been polite. I have made every reasonable effort to be gracious. On multiple occasions, I profusely thanked you and others who have contributed to this thread and to my, and likely others knowledge on this subject.

Just so others know, earlier tonight, as I signed off on this thread, I even took the time to send both Pacrat and AR15 Barrels a PM and privately, once again, say thank you for their time, their knowledge and kind contributions.

But even that is not enough sir. This no longer has anything(!) to do anything, other than you having to prove you're right. Basta!

I'm sorry but, while your contributions and knowledge were and are greatly appreciated, this was not your decision to make.

Maybe that all seemed simple and reasonable to you. But it did not, in any way, seem reasonable, or simple, to me. What you recommended seemed to do little more than add more uncertainty and more variables to the equation. At the end of the day, its my weapon, and its my money. I chose the path that, TO ME, represented certainty and the way to solve the problem.

Instead of:

1-Using a part in a manner that it was most assuredly NOT designed to be used
2-Sending it off to someone, and who's skill set and capabilities I do not know . This is, in no way meant as a slight to you or AR15 Barrels, it is simply a fact sir.
3-modifying this off the shelf part and removing all of the heat treatments you both spent pages discussing. That I suspect virtually no one else understood three words of.
4-Assuming all of the above went swimmingly, then, proceeding to place a much greater tension loading on this part than it was ever designed to bear to begin with. . .

Maybe to you and AR15 Barrels this all made sense? Maybe you are right. I don't know. I simply maintain that to me, and likely others, it made no sense at all, and again represented nothing but more uncertainty and more variables to deal with.

I'm no longer going to post in this thread. But as you seem like the sort that simply must prove you are right, have at it sir.

Last edited by sfarchitect; 05-02-2017 at 9:24 PM..
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  #379  
Old 05-03-2017, 1:10 AM
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  #380  
Old 05-03-2017, 2:27 AM
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One one hand you tell me I could have saved money by buying an off the shelf GR-X or some other such through die.
<<<separated sentences for clarity of structure>>>
But then you advise me to have someone bore it out which will remove the heat treated surface?
Quote:
So I now have to ask. Have you even read this lengthy thread you started? And paid attention to the relevant information given by those you admit have much more experience and knowledge than yourself?
Your question, prompted my question. Because it was not only an inaccurate paraphrasing of anything I have actually said. It was something that you had claimed I had advised multiple times before. Which had already been addressed as incorrect. In several previous posts.

That, and this quote from your post #366.

Quote:
pacrat, sir, I have an FL body die. This was THE problem. That 'FL' body die, is NOT in fact FL! It fails to encompass the very bottom 3/16'-1/4" at the base of the case by the rim.
On 4-27,...18 days into this thread. Gives the distinct impression that you were not reading your thread, but popping in from time to time. To the point that you didn't even remember what you yourself, had posted previously. Because the shortcomings [pun intended] of a FL die had also been discussed as causation of your problem. With concise explanations as to why it happens the way it does. In multiple posts.

Quote:
I'm sorry but, while your contributions and knowledge were and are greatly appreciated, this was not your decision to make.
And I agree with that whole heartedly as I had also previously stated.

Quote:
post #95, Your rifle, your choice, whichever method used, I hope it works for you.
Quote:
post #287, In the instance of this particular rifle. It has everything to do with it. Because it is OP's rifle. So realistically, his opinion on how to best proceed. Is the only opinion that counts.
And then this

Quote:
But even that is not enough sir. This no longer has anything(!) to do anything, other than you having to prove you're right. Basta!

I'm no longer going to post in this thread. But as you seem like the sort that simply must prove you are right, have at it sir.
Unfortunate that you have chosen to assign a "presumptive" ego driven element, to my attempt to aid you in flattening the steep learning curve on the path you chose. I don't really care about being "right". I do try to help others. And if I put forth an opinion during a discussion. And someone else shows my logic to be faulty, or based on an inaccurate premise. As Randall did. Then I have learned something, and can possibly use that info in the future to help someone else.

You hold Bill Alexander in high regard. I must admit it is an impressive rifle. Yet he admits to previously knowing about the problem you had with the "jam". Because other shooters of his rifle had similar problems. Yet he said nothing. A simple notation in the owners manual, or a 2 cent printed copy of a "caution" in the box, would have saved you, and others a lot of grief, time, and money.

"CAUTION, IF YOU RELOAD AMMUNITION FOR THIS RIFLE, BE CERTAIN TO CHAMBER CHECK IT BEFORE FIRING. OTHERWISE JAMS MAY RESULT".

Quote:
post #95, Your rifle, your choice, whichever method used, I hope it works for you.
Still goes, All the best.
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