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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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Enfield 2A .308
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#2
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A few problems exist with these...
1.) They have 12 round mags which aren't legal to import. 2.) They're not safe to fire .308 commercial ammo in (even in small doses). And, they are likely at the edge of what's safe for 7.62 Nato. I had a long talk with Dennis Kroh about this (owner of Empire Arms, definetly knows his stuff and is a straight shooter). Here's what he said... When these first arrived on our shores they sold 20. Out of the 20, 16 developed excessive headspace issues (some after firing only a box or two of commercial .308. So, 16 became wall hangers. He is also aware of one catastrophic failure that caused a serious injury (luckily not from a rifle he sold, but at a local range). Now, to their credit AIM does say use only 7.62 NATO ammo. However, Dennis feels that even this is pushing the limit for these rifles. Contrary to what some say these were not made out of any special steel. Even if you already have mags I would pass on these. Sometimes one's safety is worth more than a 169 dollar rifle. 3.) One more thing...these being less than 50 years of age...require an FFL 1. From a post Dennis made... Actually we neither buy nor sell Ishapore Enfields chambered in 7.62 NATO. We had done so when they were first imported, but over HALF of the ones we bought and sold during that period ended up with headspace problems that relegated them to "wallhanger" status after firing as little as one box of commercial .308 Winchester ammo in them. The first sign of trouble was that the extractor broke off and the owners wanted to know where they could obtain a replacement extractor. Further inspection of their rifle found that the headspace of every one of the suspect rifles (though they had been previously checked by us before selling them) had been stretched beyond FIELD limits and were no longer safe to fire (it was the extreme bulging of the base of the case that caused the ejector to break). I have personally seen one person (thank GOD he didn't buy it from us) at a local range, get severely injured in the groin after his Model 2A1 Ishapore Enfield had a intense gas-rupture and "let go" when firing it, blowing the loaded magazine under high-pressure out of the rifle and landing between his legs. This "accident" required major hospitalization and surgery to repair his grievious and painful injury. This guy was so CLEVER that even after the extractor broke-off of his Ishapore Model 2A1 rifle (hello. . . serious WARNING SIGN there. . . ) he continued to shoot it at the range while simply knocking out the empty case after every shot by running a cleaning-rod down the barrel rather than attempt to purchase another extractor! Little wonder that his wife forbid him from owning even a single firearm after that experience (we ended up buying every gun he owned or will ever own from her). Nahhh. . . we won't find or sell you one of these rifles. . . we like you too much! ------------------ Denny Kroh, owner, EMPIRE ARMS email: kroh@empirearms.com website: http://www.empirearms.com Last edited by TonyNorCal; 07-14-2006 at 4:04 PM.. |
#3
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#4
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Read this, it debunks a fair bit of the myth about Ishapore Enfields.
http://www.surplusrifle.com/shooting/oddshot2/index.asp
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NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA Life Member / SAF Life Member Calguns.net an incorported entity - President. The Calguns Shooting Sports Assoc. - Vice President. The California Rifle & Pistol Assoc. - Director. DONATE TO NRA-ILA, CGSSA, AND CRPAF NOW! Opinions posted in this account are my own and unless specifically stated as such are not the approved position of Calguns.net, CGSSA or CRPA. |
#6
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I own an Ishipore Enfield. It is the same feel as my 303 made in Australia. The only difference is the baked enamel finish. You have to be really careful as to what you use as a cleaner. The good thing is that you dont have to worry about using corrosive ammo if you buy modern NATO ammo. I paid 300 for mine at a gun show in the 90's. I have not taken it out in years as it sits in my moms safe in SF. I say buy it or regret it.
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#8
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Now in his defense he did post and apologized. He didn't think his ad was that arrogant. Apparently I wasn't the only one to think so. iirc, this was on Gunsnet a long while back. Ever since then, his opinions are his. Now back to the Enfield. My buddy has one and we've gone for extensive range sessions with it. The rifle is still intact. In fact I think we were shooting South African Surplus back then. I now own a beater on that someone tried to convert to a jungle carbine, so once I get the barrel recrowned, I'll be shooting that. Seriously, if they were really bad, do you think guys like AIM, Interordnance, Century would still be in business? With this sue happy culture of ours, if one exploded, you or your family would be suing them. And if they were all bad... you can multiply this. |
#9
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He is in the same class as Tom Forrest and David B. Just my experience. I call his overpriced junk "junk" and his discriptions "lies". If he was selling these 308 Enfield 2A's, they would be the greatest thing out there! |
#10
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Or WOLF with its massive 2400FPS haha J |
#11
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ishy info
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#13
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I bought one from AIMS (comes w/ 10rd mag for Calif.customer) about 6mo ago. Shot it w/ 7.62mm South African surplus (about 40rd), action smooth and flawless. However, the grouping was poor, 4-6" at 50yrd.
After dissembly, I found the action bedding (the wood underneath the action) was half-rotted and spongy. I did some woodwork (clean/file/sand/JBweld) to repair the bedding, but have not shot it since because of other rifle interest. BTW, it is not C&R, so FFL1 is required. |
#14
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Tteng-
You'll also want to make sure the fore end stud and spring are in place. I've bought a few No1 MkIII's and 2A1's where somebody had removed that piece. It’s easy to lose, and easy to replace. Most importantly, its absence will make for a pretty poor grouping. |
#16
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Is that for all of the grades that AIM offers?
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#18
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Tell you what they are good for though.
Reenactors. We love 'em. Cheap .308 Austrian or British blanks, makes it economical for the reenactor on a budget. You can buy a case of 2000 blanks for less than $70 delivered. That's .03c per round. With the equivalent .303 blanks costing over .35c a round its a no brainer. Cheers Gaz |
#19
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My Ishapore does not have the baked enamel finish, it has a blued finish & at about 85% I think it looks best. Excessive headspace is I think a result of the Enfields using rear rather than front locking lugs, I don't think it is the result of too powerful a cartridge.
Saying that the Ishapores have a "generous" chamber dimension is putting it mildly though. With respect to being "over 50 years old" I presume this is a reference to whether or not the Ishapores are C & R eligible. They are listed as C & R eligible in their original military condition. |
#21
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Quote:
http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd....6330&chrSuperS
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#22
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Cool...zombie thread. Back from the dead. Feed it some brains (Where's Iggy?) and let's see how long it lives for!
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My friends and family disavow all knowledge of my existence, let alone my opinions. |
#23
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Got a Enfield 2A 7.62 Nato years ago because I somehow wound up with a lot of 7.62 Nato ammo and had no gun in that caliber. I read up and found out that the steel of the receiver and bolt was different than the .303 versions. BUT looking at mine, the look of the receiver steel and the bolt were very different from each other.
I didn't feel comfortable with firing the gun and sold the Enfield without firing the piece. In retrospect, just because a gun is cheap and affordable doesn't make it safe. Who knows, maybe I slid by getting a bolt stuck in my forehead (or not)! |
#24
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I also have a 2A and have run at least a thousand rounds through it with no headspace issues, I have gauges and check all my shooters regularly. As far as Dennis Kroh the guy is an arrogant ***** call his shop and see for yourself.
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#25
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Couple of Points as have a few of these and several more Enfields. I know several people who have shot lots and lots of .308 through these rifles without an issue. There are lots of myths about these things and it would really help to check with peopel who know Enfields before making judgements.
Headspace - These are military rifles and the action was designed in the late 1890's. They were designed to be dropped in a trench and dragged across teh desert and still fire afterwards, so the chambers by modern standards are sloppy. Do as the guy Above said - use a military field gauge NOT modern commerical gauge. Even if it's failing that use discretion, but Enfields do have two significant size holes in the chamber for gas exchaust in case of head separation. Also someone made a lovely little comment about india and their industrial quality. Possibly a fair point in general, but the factories that made the Enfield No.1 MkIII and then the 2A1 in india were set up and run by the British and even after Indian independence were still run to the same standards as the british armouries, same checks, same proof marks and same metallurgy. Where the difference is, is in how rifles are treated after they get out of the factory. I found that mine were very accurate - no problems with having fired corrosive ammo, and as it's easier to get quality 7.62 than .303, they tend to open a few eyes at the range when the guy next to you with scoped M16alike is getting bigger groups than something which looks like it was out of date in the First world war |
#27
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Interesting discussion about 2As on the CSP forum
http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/fal/fal.pl?read=5087
Some of the folks on this forum are still serving Commonwealth armorers who have experience with the Lee Enfield and 2A series. Worth reading this discussion about the 2As. I learned something. |
#28
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I do not have a 2a but everything I have ever heard is that they are great rifles. I own several Ishapore .303 both post independence examples and they are fine quality, on par with the English and Australian examples I own. The failure described earlier is almost (if not completely) impossible in any Enfield design. The receiver is designed to handle a case failure. Headspace will probably fail a no go gauge, use a field gauge, it is what they are designed for.
Even if a rifle failed I would wager that every rifle ever built has had a catastrophic failure at some point for some reason. M-1, M-1a, AR-15s, you name it it has or will fail. One rifle can not be used to judge the type of firearm. Whoever this Empire Arms guy is selling everyone a bill of goods, I really believe his Enfield story is a load of crap, and second after checking out his website anyone who buys anything from that guy got sold a bill of goods too. Everything there is overpriced by a factor of at least 2. What a rip off. |
#29
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Thanks guys.I got one of the 5 rounders from Promag ,and the first time I loaded it the top round kept popping out like a jack-in-the-box.The last round slipped half under the bolt and was bent into an ''L''. The stock mag ,a twelve rounder,normally loaded with ten rounds [with two five round strippers] works pretty well in the Ishi's,but the Importer switched to ten round after-market Promags,and in so doing,they changed the normally dependable work horse Enfield into a tempermental jammo-matic.
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#30
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BHP FAN-Take a heavy pair of pliers/vise and play-around-with/tweek the feed lips of the mag to get it right. That means supporting the top round so it feeds directly into the chamber. I've done that with some aftermarket mags that are problemental.
Are you really a fan of the BHP? Had two and a Charles Daly (very nice gun for the price), what are your thoughts about them? |
#31
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#32
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Brownells sells a mag lip tool for about $5.00 - basically a screwdriver with a round shank, a slit in the side. The thing works so damn good, it's saved a few mags from being launched downrange by me, including the SMLE replacement mags. They can be made to work, but I had to fiddle with mine to get them to seat in the gun and feed.
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#34
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I call B.S. I've fired thousands of 308win and 7.62x51 in my 2a purchased 15 years ago. I've never had a stuck bolt or had any sign of high pressure on fired brass. Use a go-no-go guage and check yourself first. I'm suggesting safety first and know what your shooting. Any Milsup should be checked out before firing. Thanks for the link to the mag
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#35
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#36
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I picked up an Ishy 2A in the late 90's that was in good shape and it's one of those that Navy Arms converted to a jungle carbine format. It is by no means a tack driver with the original Enfield military sights but it will hit a silhoutte target at 200m (disclaimer: my old eyes aren't the best and the crude sights don't help me much).
For those who put down the Indian manufacturing, it may be true for many products, but their arms industry used the Enfield production machines and high quality steel for re-arming their army. No shortcuts. I've put at least 300 rds downrange with the Ishy and no signs of any problems. It's a fine rifle but it kicks hard. But I did find out by accident it is a natural pointer from the hip. I hit a soda can at 20 yards 8/10 times out in the boonies to get rid of some milsurp ammo. Quite surprising. |
#37
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I don't doubt the carbine itself is well made,I wouldn't have bought it otherwise.That darn magazine is a steaming pile of...something,though.One of the fellas here mentioned a Brownell's maglips tool though,and I'm getting one of those for sure. I can always use tools,being an AGA member,and shade tree gunsmith. failing that,another member here posted a link to Gunpartsco,who I've been doing buisness with since they were Numrich Arms the first time...but I used his link,and the original,NOT aftermarket mags are in stock again.If I can't make my mag work,that's next. As far as the sights go,I ordered Mojo's because the STOUT recoil of the little Gibbs Carbine caused the stock sight to flip up each shot.So I ordered the Mojo,and a fresh spring...same thing.Sooo....I ordered a B-Square Scout mount,and a pistol scope,and a Harris bi-pod.I haven't given up on this project yet,but it HAS caused me to use some 'colorfull' sailor language.Worst case scenario,you'll see a tricked out Enfield at our next gunshow.
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#38
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Just FYI, on the aftermarket mags I bought from Numrich I had to fit the mag just to get the thing to stay seated. I usually don't bother using the aftermarket ones, I'll probably but originals. |
#40
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I have one I bought in 1999. I have 4-5 thousand rounds thru it. It is one of my favorite rifles. I do only shoot nato or Indian ammo thru it. The Indian is a soft shooting ammo for sure. If I remember right it is cordite loaded. Dont hold me to that.
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