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Long Distance Shooting Discuss tools, techniques, tips and theories of long distance shooting

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  #1  
Old 05-11-2017, 1:43 PM
Whiterabbit Whiterabbit is offline
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Default Anyone compare starline 308 to lapua 308 brass?

specifically for any effects on velocity uniformity and group size.

Of course, Starline is the gold standard for pistol brass. But with companies like Lapua with very very good reputations for making excellent rifle brass, Can starline forge a reputation as being second fiddle only to Lapua? Maybe even surpass Lapua reputation?

Only data can confirm one way or the other. Has anyone tried 308 starline head to head with lapua brass? Anyone have any measurable differences in results?
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Old 05-11-2017, 5:07 PM
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As far as I know . . . Lapua is the best on the market
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  #3  
Old 05-11-2017, 9:10 PM
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Starline brass in 308 is a very new development by comparison. The question is since starline is known to be the best for pistol, did they transfer that excellence to their forray into rifle brass making, and if so, does it translate into rifle excellence that can compete with the likes of lapua.
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  #4  
Old 05-12-2017, 7:31 AM
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Velocity uniformity and group size. well among other things but when talking about the cartridge case comes down to cases volume consistency. Guys will weigh cases thinking that's a good way to separate cases, I'm not going to say it doesn't but it's not the best way to do the job.

The other and it's also subject to debate is neck tension.

If you have cases that are consistent in volume, and you have them consistent in neck tension, sized correctly, the neck is concentric to the head, All other things that make good ammo good. There should be no reason.

IMHO the cartridge case is little more then a house for powder, That being said i'm very picky on what brass i use, and how it's treated, i keep brass separated in lots, I primarily use Lapua and Peterson.

If you are looking for good inexpensive brass. Look at Hornady Match. this is good quality consistent and cheep brass. about half the cost of Lapua.
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  #5  
Old 06-15-2017, 9:37 PM
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Wonder if starline will start producing cheytac brass. Support USA? Pistol brass has been excellent. I just bought some 243 and will see how they compare.


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  #6  
Old 06-15-2017, 10:52 PM
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Will you be comparing starline 243 to Lapua 243?
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Old 06-27-2017, 6:47 AM
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Default Anyone compare starline 308 to lapua 308 brass?

What I see now is lapua weights are within +\- 0.5 gr. Starline is about +\- 2 gr. This is max spread over 10 random cases


Need some time to load up and see durability. I used my Annie annealer to anneal the necks first
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Old 06-27-2017, 9:02 AM
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cool, thanks for that. Are you willing to go one step further? are you willing to mark the cases (10 is probably enough for this) based on weight, and shoot 10x random lapua cases, and then the 10x starline marked cases, in random order, and track velocity for each of the 20 shots?

If we can associate case weight with a velocity shift, then we know 100% that the starline cases are for range ammo and hunting ammo, not for long range.

If the result is random, then we know the caseweight uniformity is meaningless.

If you are willing, you can send me your outliers (heaviest and lightest starline cases, 10-20 from your population) and I'm happy to perform this test and report the results. Obviously I'd compensate you for the cases. though it's likely easier for you to collect that data since you have the cases on hand.

That is data I would really, really like to see. Frankly, I think calguns in general would benefit from that data, they could know just how strongly they can associate the caseweight to downrange performance.

Last edited by Whiterabbit; 06-27-2017 at 9:13 AM..
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:11 AM
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I think you'll wear out the brass before you see a velocity shift due to case weight. I reloaded my first lot of lapua brass 9 times before the necks started to split, this was before I bought an annealer, I had to trim cases once in 9 reloadings and I was running them pretty damn hot.
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  #10  
Old 07-05-2017, 11:03 PM
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Pm me. I'll find time to sort out 10 starline cases. I'm interested too but don't have much range time. I have a magnetospeed but keep forgetting to bring it.


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  #11  
Old 07-06-2017, 9:53 AM
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I don't have much range time either, but can make the time. I love the data collection and analysis portion of shooting almost more than the shooting.
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  #12  
Old 08-06-2017, 11:43 PM
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Hi Guys,

Here's a followup. Trakker was awesome and sent me 10 of his cases for me to compare. I have some results.

Background:
-Ruger Precision Rifle, 243
-10x New Starline cases
-10x used Lapua cases (bought on calguns, they have 3x firings on them now)
-cases were "uniformed" by running all through a FL sizer then trimmed to identical lengths. Loaded using my standard load.
-Load is 2897 fps, ES 26, SD 8.

Testing consisted of shooting 3x targets printed from the OnTarget TDS program. 30 rounds total, 10 per target. First 10 were warmups, then the next 20 were randomly selected and shot. Each shot was associated with a case, case weight, and velocity.

Two 10 round groups were assembled, and compared for group analysis (SD shift, POI shift, etc). The individual shots were also charted to look for trends (effects leverage for case weight to velocity, etc).

The Conclusion:

No statistical difference was found. If I were not sitting on 320 rounds of Lapua brass, I'd be buying Starline.

Group Comparison:
POI shift:
x-0.028"
y-0.068"
z-0.074"
CTC shift-0.008" (<---- wow!)
Velocity SD shift-1.76 fps (22%)
Velocity shift-17.8 fps

Case Weights:
Average case weight between L and S is within 1.5 grain.
Case ES in the 10 case groups was within .3 grains, and SD was within .2 grains.

Effects Leverages: none found (IOW, no measurable differences looked at had an effect on velocity, POI, etc)

----------

Biggest difference was a velocity shift of 17.8 FPS, lapua brass was faster. Technically, the SD shift of 1.76 fps is significant because SD is 8, so to see SD DROP from 8 to 6 and change with starline is actually significant. But I suspect that if I shot groups of 30 I would not see the same big difference (IOW, I think it's noise)

------------------------

I kinda planned for this to be a "test 1" of a multi test study with followup experiments, but now I'm not sure it's needed. Shooting 20 rounds in random order and assembling them into two 10 shot groups of like-brand-brass and having them differ in group size by .008", and POI only shift .074", I mean come on! Gotta be the same.

Hope this helps anyone wondering if Starline can make rifle brass as good as their pistol brass.

Obviously this does not study well-used brass. The starline used in this study is now exactly once-fired.
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  #13  
Old 09-26-2017, 3:55 PM
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I have both sets of brass.

I shoot the Lapua small primer in my palma 308 gun(s)

I have been shooting the Starline in my M14/M1A

-All weighed on a Sartorius Entris-64 to the nearest .1gr
-I pulled 25 cases of Starline out of a batch of 250
-I pulled 25 cases of Laupa out of a batch of 300 from the same lot#

*When I speak of Quality I define it as variance; lower variance is higher quality. Durability is how long it lasts it is not a measure of quality.

Starline has an ES of 5 grains and SD of 1.34
Lapua has an ES of 1.1 and SD of .26

Honestly in terms of quality Starline can't hold a candle to Lapua; the ES and SD of Starline is 5X greater than Lapua.

That being said you have to ask yourself is it relevant?
Let's say the weight is worth 1/4 minute at 600 and 1/2 minute at 1000

For my M14 at 600 yards with iron sights and a sling the Lapua brass won't really do much; I'd be super happy just to keep in the "10" ring(2 MOA on an MR1 target).

For an LR target with a palma gun it makes difference because with a palma gun and sights you can realistically expect to shoot within a minute.

Final thoughts:
If you are going to spend the money on buying a high-end scale (sartorius, A&D, etc), shooting match bullets (sierra, berger, flatline) in a custom built bolt gun at 600+ yards than Lapua is probably worth the money. If you want to shoot your factory bolt gun or custom gas gun at 200 to 600 yards, weighed to the .1gr, with bargain to mid range bullets starline is fine.

That being said Starline is probably my new go to brass for my M14 I've gotten 5 firing from it so far from my m14 going to how many i can go before the brass goes kaput.

Starline
+ Cheap - at 35/40 cents a case it's a deal
+ durable - 5+ firings from an M14 enough said
+ accurate - shoot great from 200 to 600 yards
- Not as high "quality" as Lapua (quality is defined as variance i.e. lower variance = higher quality)

Lapua
+ Quality - Stats don't lie; this stuff is quality SD of .26gr...
+ durable - I won't waste it in an M14 but you can get 10+ firings in a bolt gun with great accuracy
- Price - .75 cents a pop on sale ouch!

DATA:
Sample starline 308 Lapua Palma
1 172.5 177.3
2 172.8 177.1
3 171.6 177.3
4 168.8 177.3
5 172.4 176.8
6 170.1 177.3
7 172.3 177.9
8 172.3 176.9
9 171.7 176.9
10 170.7 177.6
11 171.4 177.2
12 167.8 177.6
13 172 177.1
14 171.3 177.5
15 168.7 177.4
16 170.7 177.5
17 171.1 177.2
18 170.5 177.4
19 170.7 177.1
20 170.7 176.9
21 171.8 177.4
22 169.3 177.2
23 170.5 177
24 172.1 177.2
25 169.2 177.5
MIN 167.8 176.8
MAX 172.8 177.9
ES 5 1.1
SD 1.34 0.26
Avg 170.92 177.264
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  #14  
Old 09-29-2017, 6:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy Mustang View Post
That being said you have to ask yourself is it relevant?
Let's say the weight is worth 1/4 minute at 600 and 1/2 minute at 1000
I agree with you, but I quoted this because you concluded ultimately that the Lapua Brass was better, but the evidence is based on a thought experiment that assumes the information I quoted.

IF your assumption is true, then all your conclusions I agree with.

Thing is, I have data that shows that the brass variability you measured, does not result in the performance variability you are positing. In fact, I showed that the performance variability is near zero. And that's not an assumption, that's data.

In short, brass weight variability was shown to be a non-factor for velocity or group size variability.


----------------------------------------

Don't let me stop anyone from buying lapua brass. I use it too (because I had it before Starline made brass in my cartridge). But I guarantee you next time around I'll buy starline and run with it confidently. Because down range, it's the same as lapua.

(I too have no data on how long the brass will last, lapua vs starline)
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Old 09-29-2017, 10:46 PM
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what range/distance was the test conducted at and what measuring equipment was used?
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:04 PM
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100 yards, magnetospeed. group size was measured with TDS which can resolve group size within a few pixels, limiting accuracy to the quality of your camera. Effects leverage was calculated using JMP software.

Of course, 1/4 MOA is measurable at any distance, where velocity variation is the expect cause for both vertical dispersion directly, and enhanced wind variability at distance as well. Thus, 100 yards is not a problem when taken in conjunction with velocity variation. In short, negligible group size variability can only be considered valid if velocity variability is also negligible.

So don't try to dismiss the short range when velocity is included.

the measured variability was near zero for group size, and actually improved velocity variation with starline cases, meaning the data came from the same population.

The only real change was an average-shift in absolute velocity which would make sense if there was a bulk weight difference between cases, or perhaps a dimensional difference in neck thickness. Neither would be relevant to variability.

Last edited by Whiterabbit; 09-29-2017 at 11:06 PM..
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Old 10-03-2017, 4:06 PM
Roy Mustang Roy Mustang is offline
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When I analyze it more I started looking at the specs you provided for the Starline cases .3 ES and .2 SD in weight; I'd almost have to say that those cases were selected as the 10 closest; (i.e. component grouping).

The SD and ES stated for the Starline cases in the 243 test is less than mine for the Lapua 308. I think a more realistic test would be 10 "random" pieces pulled from the brass population. I don't doubt sorted starline brass will shoot as good as lapua; that being said do you think you could obtain similar results out of starline if you randomly picked brass with the stated ES/SD's?
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  #18  
Old 10-12-2017, 4:00 PM
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Default Anyone compare starline 308 to lapua 308 brass?

I did not sort the cases, they were random. There is more variation in weights with starline, but is it at the point of diminishing returns?


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Last edited by Trakker; 10-15-2017 at 8:25 AM..
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  #19  
Old 10-20-2017, 11:19 PM
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Technically, I FL sized and trimmed (WFT) all cases (both starline and lapua comparison cases) to ensure I was not inducing geometry differences between the cases and chamber to muddy results.

I don't know if that is a contributing factor to the higher comparative uniformity of my starline case sample compared to yours. I can't generate that data, but both Trakker and you could.

As for picking cases that represent YOUR experience with case weight, I can;t do that, obviously. However, I could take a bottoming tap if I can find one long enough and buzz the bottom of each case. No way can I do that by hand with precision uniformity, so I would not only be inducing case weight variability, but you can be guaranteed it will be variability induced into case volume, and re-run the test.

What do you think?

Can't do it for more than a month as I have a business trip coming up that will take me to Thanksgiving, but I can shoot for some December data.

But if I did that, and the data came out the same, would you accept that starline cases are as good as Lapua, or would you question my data or instrumentation? (or question something that implies the test was invalid or inconclusive?)
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Old 11-22-2017, 12:20 AM
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I have good confidence in your testing. I will gather some 6.5 creedmoor cases in hornady, lapua, and starline. It would be interesting to see what counts more.


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