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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #201  
Old 09-23-2009, 3:43 PM
SickofSoCal SickofSoCal is offline
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Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
What makes you think that the voters would vote against it?
Nothing really.

I just find it interesting how some things are lobbied for like crazy to get on the ballot, while others aren't.

I mean, they didn't have to spend tens of millions to pass this thing. But, at any rate, I still think it's kind of messed up the way they did. Why couldn't it have just been an L.A. County deal? Isn't that were most of the gangs are? Their voters could have voted on it.

Instead, they have to make it for this whole huge state. Like there's so many gangsters north of Sacramento.....
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  #202  
Old 09-23-2009, 3:48 PM
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Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post
Nothing really.

I just find it interesting how some things are lobbied for like crazy to get on the ballot, while others aren't.

I mean, they didn't have to spend tens of millions to pass this thing. But, at any rate, I still think it's kind of messed up the way they did. Why couldn't it have just been an L.A. County deal? Isn't that were most of the gangs are? Their voters could have voted on it.

Instead, they have to make it for this whole huge state. Like there's so many gangsters north of Sacramento.....

The rationale was that it was easy for the L.A. Gangsters to go just over the border, even if still within L.A. County, and buy ammo without the restrictions. This law will make them, and us, go to Las Vegas or Reno - a much more time consuming process.

And anyway, they don't really care about whether the gangsters shoot each other - they really want to make it too much of a hassle for us to practice our sport so we take up golf instead.
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  #203  
Old 09-23-2009, 3:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Glock22Fan View Post
The rationale was that it was easy for the L.A. Gangsters to go just over the border, even if still within L.A. County, and buy ammo without the restrictions. This law will make them, and us, go to Las Vegas or Reno - a much more time consuming process.

And anyway, they don't really care about whether the gangsters shoot each other - they really want to make it too much of a hassle for us to practice our sport so we take up golf instead.
I just don't see why my rights (and yours) have to be compromised because of the actions of a reckless few.


This bill is Collectivism at it's finest.
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  #204  
Old 09-23-2009, 4:28 PM
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Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post
I mean, they didn't have to spend tens of millions to pass this thing. But, at any rate, I still think it's kind of messed up the way they did. Why couldn't it have just been an L.A. County deal? Isn't that were most of the gangs are? Their voters could have voted on it.

Instead, they have to make it for this whole huge state. Like there's so many gangsters north of Sacramento.....
You mistakenly assume this has anything to do with gangs.

It's a play on that Chris Rock standup routine, where he joked that they should make bullets cost $5,000 each. Some wise legislator/staffer actually ran with that idea, and not to stop crime, but purely to inhibit legal firearms ownership, training and competition. It's no coincidence that gun control advocates are focusing on restricting ammunition, in the post-Heller world of 2009.
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  #205  
Old 09-23-2009, 4:52 PM
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Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post
I just don't see why my rights (and yours) have to be compromised because of the actions of a reckless few.


This bill is Collectivism at it's finest.
You are missing the point that it is exactly my rights, and yours, that they are deliberately targetting.
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  #206  
Old 09-23-2009, 5:53 PM
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You are missing the point that it is exactly my rights, and yours, that they are deliberately targetting.
right, because as far as I can tell, the point is that *we* should be disarmed, and they simply use the gang's behavior to justify it. how do I know that? because this bill doesn't inhibit the purchase of ammo by people who are *already* restricted nor does it further protect us from them. but it does effectively inhibit the purchase of ammo by people who *weren't* previously restricted, and who have violated no existing laws.

this bill is constructed using one of my favorite political ploys... wait for something awful to go wrong, and then immediately use that as leverage to punish and restrict the uninvolved.

megan
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  #207  
Old 09-23-2009, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LesGrossman41510 View Post
Im not a big fan of the internet ganging up in this thread, seems like some of you folks think you are in the elite CG club and can talk down on anyone.
But that is the ONE HUGE weakness of CalGuns: the fact that we have a HUGE number of 'certain' 'members' who will jump on the bandwagon and gang up on someone like rabid friggin' monkeys as soon as they smell even a hint of blood. These are the same people who (conveniently & quickly) "forget" a fellow member who has been a good, generous Samaritan if it means jumping in and name calling just for the sake of doing it. Until these people either take a close look @ themselves, or just leave, this kind of petty crap will continue. I remember someone made a very profound statement recently. It went something like "Why CalGunners eat their own....." Sad, but true.
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  #208  
Old 09-23-2009, 6:17 PM
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While true - if everyone on this forum donated $100 to CGF I *PROMISE YOU* in 5 years you will be able to CCW a select fire suppressed MP5.
I'm already in for $1500+. I still, and always will , believe.
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  #209  
Old 09-23-2009, 6:19 PM
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Let's not blow smoke- why not name people and discuss it openly with them?

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But that is the ONE HUGE weakness of CalGuns: the fact that we have a HUGE number of 'certain' 'members' who will jump on the bandwagon and gang up on someone like rabid friggin' monkeys as soon as they smell even a hint of blood. These are the same people who (conveniently & quickly) "forget" a fellow member who has been a good, generous Samaritan if it means jumping in and name calling just for the sake of doing it. Until these people either take a close look @ themselves, or just leave, this kind of petty crap will continue. I remember someone made a very profound statement recently. It went something like "Why CalGunners eat their own....." Sad, but true.
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  #210  
Old 09-23-2009, 6:26 PM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Let's not blow smoke- why not name people and discuss it openly with them?
"Blowin smoke???" No, not quite. Anyone who has spent a decent amount of time on these boards has seen it time, and time again. And the 'offenders' know exactly who they are. No need to start calling out others for a rumble in an already half-way f00ked up thread that is on the road to repair.
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  #211  
Old 09-23-2009, 6:28 PM
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If it were on the road to repair, do you feel your post helpful in this regard? I'm not sure your comments reconcile.


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Originally Posted by supersonic View Post
"Blowin smoke???" No, not quite. Anyone who has spent a decent amount of time on these boards has seen it time, and time again. And the 'offenders' know exactly who they are. No need to start calling out others for a rumble in an already half-way f00ked up thread that is on the road to repair.
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  #212  
Old 09-23-2009, 7:34 PM
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If it were on the road to repair, do you feel your post helpful in this regard? I'm not sure your comments reconcile.
Oh-KAY...Let's DRAG this out just for the sake of a 'debate.' If you move your eyes a little 'North' in my post that is getting to you so much, you might see that it was relevant to a quote made by an earlier post. Can we move on, now? Or are you going to come up with another clever argument? The 'state of all things CalGuns.'...is relevant in any thread such as this.
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  #213  
Old 09-23-2009, 8:25 PM
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Can we move on, now? Or are you going to come up with another clever argument?
Thank you for the compliment.

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Originally Posted by supersonic View Post
Oh-KAY...Let's DRAG this out just for the sake of a 'debate.' If you move your eyes a little 'North' in my post that is getting to you so much, you might see that it was relevant to a quote made by an earlier post. The 'state of all things CalGuns.'...is relevant in any thread such as this.
Let's be frank: there is a difference between 'piling on' and calling bull**** on, well, bull****. Posters who choose to maintain an indefensible position and elect to stay active in the discussion will continue to garner responses; if one does not like the responses they receive, they can a) defend their position with substantive evidence supporting their position or b) declare all arguments to the contrary baseless and impliedly insult the others without providing any factual basis for their continued disagreement.

This was a passionate discussion. As they say, if you can't stand the heat...
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  #214  
Old 09-23-2009, 8:43 PM
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You are missing the point that it is exactly my rights, and yours, that they are deliberately targetting.
Duh! You once again, have assumed that I am ignorant or something. I am perfectly aware of what they are up to, and what the intended results will be.

My post was in reference to how they market and sell these things to the greater public at large.




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



And for the record, Glock, it's time for peace, alright? I'm not on the warpath after you, and you don't need to be on it after me.

If we were having this same conversation in a voice chat room and not a static message board, we would not be having these commutation issues.


Therefore, I am offering an e-olive branch to you and everyone else, I hope ya'll can accept it.
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  #215  
Old 09-23-2009, 8:50 PM
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Olives/Olive Branches are goood. Olive oil, Virgin olive oil, Extra Virgin olive oil, Stuffed olives, Kalamata Olives..
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They don't believe it's possible, but then Alison didn't believe there'd be 350K - 400K OLLs in CA either.
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  #216  
Old 09-23-2009, 10:31 PM
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Maybe I should have said peace pipe instead..........but I'm sure that the clever will find a way to jest as well.
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  #217  
Old 09-23-2009, 10:45 PM
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Maybe I should have said peace pipe instead..........but I'm sure that the clever will find a way to jest as well.
What are you smoking?
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  #218  
Old 09-24-2009, 3:15 AM
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My 0.02:

-It's quite clear that most CA gun owners do not choose to live here or continue to live here due to the liberal gun laws

-Personally, I live here, and really have no plans to "escape" from CA because I honestly and genuinely love this state, for all of it's shortcomings and flaws, I love this place. At the same time I also love my 2A rights, and do not believe those two need be mutually exclusive. Therefore, in order to ensure that 2A rights are protected and preserved in CA, I will continue to promote gun ownership and shooting sports. Simple activities such as continuing to support my local gun shops, frequent local shooting ranges, and contributing to the vitality of local forums all help to preserve 2A rights.

-As for all the people who decided, for whatever reason, to leave CA or believe that 2A in CA is a lost cause, you are very much entitled to your opinion, that is your right. But please remember, the fight for 2A rights is for the long haul, we need to be looking at the long term welfare of 2A in this state. If we are to understand government as a collection of self-interest, then someone's self-interest will always prevail, so as we continue to lobby for our interests to be heard around the state, and be more active in our communities, our presence will be known and our voices heard.

-So...if we're going to be here for the long haul, why not do what you can to help keep the fight for 2A rights alive in CA?

I apologize for the long rant, but I am of the opinion that most gun owners in CA do not wish for any violent demonstrations or blatant disregard for the law, but we should learn the laws and use them to our advantage, and lobby for new legislation that will further protect 2A rights.
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  #219  
Old 09-24-2009, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
Thank you for the compliment. EEK!



Let's be frank: EEK! there is a difference between 'piling on' and calling bull**** on, well, bull****. Posters who choose to maintain an indefensible position and elect to stay active in the discussion will continue to garner responses; if one does not like the responses they receive, they can a) defend their position with substantive evidence supporting their position or b) declare all arguments to the contrary baseless and impliedly insult the others without providing any factual basis for their continued disagreement.

This was a passionate discussion. As they say, if you can't stand the heat...EEK-EEK!
'Got a Monkey on my Back....' "EEK-EEK!"

Why don't you reveal your TRUE 'beef?' Why do you have to hide behind the guise of "OH, I call BULL**** on YOU!???? What is exactly "Bull****" about my statement(s)??? As I was merely elaborating on an earlier post in agreement :

Quote:
Originally Posted by LesGrossman41510 View Post
Im not a big fan of the internet ganging up in this thread, seems like some of you folks think you are in the elite CG club and can talk down on anyone.
....And it was obviously a 'rhetorical post ' anyway, what was it about my more descriptive elaboration that was so different than the above??what was it that made you single me out??? Let's hear it! What exactly is it that is on your lofty list of 'B.S.' about CG members ganging up on each other? Maybe I hit a sore spot? You are, maybe, ....."guilty" of the ignorant piling-on of which I spoke? (I think we may be getting somewhere now!) Let's see what really chapped your hide about a simple fact that I posted (that has been brought to light , not only by the post before mine, but by many members in the past). 'Spill your guts,' as they say.

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Originally Posted by wildhawker View Post
declare all arguments to the contrary baseless and impliedly insult the others without providing any factual basis for their continued disagreement
Who, exactly, was insulted? You? The only ones who would be insulted by my post would be the ' rabid monkeys' of which I spoke. I'm not out to insult good people with no ignorant agenda.
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  #220  
Old 09-24-2009, 6:10 AM
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Sept. 1st our NRA Member's Council enjoyed the privilege of hearing from Chuck Michel about what is going on here in CA from the legal standpoint. Like the ice berg, what people generally see is a fraction of what is really going on. The NRA, CRPA, CGF and a host of other groups are fighting and defeating bad law and beating down ill-advised commission decisions et al. Many of us spend so much time working on these issues and rallying troops to work against travesties like AB 962 and SB 585, we don't have time to moan about what is not being done.

My suggestion to Sick... is, do your research and know the FACTS, then join in the fight; we can use the help. We have enough opponents, we don't need to fight each other and criticize the active troops.
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  #221  
Old 09-24-2009, 7:03 AM
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Those who call out the misinformation of others are often viewed collectively as a "gang" by those who feel personally invested in those concepts in question when, in fact, there were simply more people who took an alternative/contrary view. Do we agree that there was quite a bit of misinformation in this thread or do you still have a raised fist from post nos. 1 & 8?

I wasn't trying to hide anything; my beef with your post was that I disagreed with your position [taken by your angeement with LesGrossman's post, quoted]. I wasn't referring to your post as "BS"; I was referring to my and others' calling BS on previous posts that were, in fact, BS. This might actually be a point previously misinterpreted and the cause of our continued discussion.

If you feel I regularly 'pile on' or 'gang up' on others please feel free to join the debate more often and defend my supposed victims from further senseless attacks of internet violence.


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Originally Posted by supersonic View Post
'Got a Monkey on my Back....' "EEK-EEK!"

Why don't you reveal your TRUE 'beef?' Why do you have to hide behind the guise of "OH, I call BULL**** on YOU!???? What is exactly "Bull****" about my statement(s)??? As I was merely elaborating on an earlier post in agreement :



....And it was obviously a 'rhetorical post ' anyway, what was it about my more descriptive elaboration that was so different than the above??what was it that made you single me out??? Let's hear it! What exactly is it that is on your lofty list of 'B.S.' about CG members ganging up on each other? Maybe I hit a sore spot? You are, maybe, ....."guilty" of the ignorant piling-on of which I spoke? (I think we may be getting somewhere now!) Let's see what really chapped your hide about a simple fact that I posted (that has been brought to light , not only by the post before mine, but by many members in the past). 'Spill your guts,' as they say.



Who, exactly, was insulted? You? The only ones who would be insulted by my post would be the ' rabid monkeys' of which I spoke. I'm not out to insult good people with no ignorant agenda.
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  #222  
Old 09-24-2009, 7:23 AM
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I'd have to say, that politically charged forums make for cannibalistic posters. That's just the way it is. I got eaten for breakfast, for no good reason really.
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  #223  
Old 09-24-2009, 8:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cool Gun Wife View Post
Sept. 1st our NRA Member's Council enjoyed the privilege of hearing from Chuck Michel about what is going on here in CA from the legal standpoint. Like the ice berg, what people generally see is a fraction of what is really going on. The NRA, CRPA, CGF and a host of other groups are fighting and defeating bad law and beating down ill-advised commission decisions et al. Many of us spend so much time working on these issues and rallying troops to work against travesties like AB 962 and SB 585, we don't have time to moan about what is not being done.

My suggestion to Sick... is, do your research and know the FACTS, then join in the fight; we can use the help. We have enough opponents, we don't need to fight each other and criticize the active troops.
True. You can compare our country to a sinking ship, say the Titanic. We are bailing constantly to keep it afloat. If there are not enough people bailing it will sink.

It has always been a struggle to keep afloat, there will always be people who wish it to sink, but the only way to keep it afloat is to have as many people to bail as possible.

Get involved, get people informed, educate people on what is really going on. It is time to take control of our country. People have been sacrificing and bailing for this country for a long time, don't let that all go to waste.
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  #224  
Old 09-24-2009, 9:11 AM
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I'd have to say, that politically charged forums make for cannibalistic posters. That's just the way it is. I got eaten for breakfast, for no good reason really.
The way I see it, you got eaten for breakfast because you deserved it.

If you want to be a moaning defeatist, that is your right. But don't expect support from most people here.
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Old 09-24-2009, 9:27 AM
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The way I see it, you got eaten for breakfast because you deserved it.

If you want to be a moaning defeatist, that is your right. But don't expect support from most people here.
If being a realist causes flak over the target, I stand guilty as charged.
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Old 09-24-2009, 9:32 AM
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The way I see it, you got eaten for breakfast because you deserved it.

If you want to be a moaning defeatist, that is your right. But don't expect support from most people here.


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Old 09-24-2009, 9:53 AM
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If being a realist causes flak over the target, I stand guilty as charged.
Ever heard the quote "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

"Being a realist" seems, in your book, to mean that you've lost all hope. Therefore, you are part of the problem.
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  #228  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:06 AM
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We're not going to win anything at the way we're progressing here. We don't know how to accept help where we can get it.

It's a simple fact that we live in a liberal dominated state. It's also a simple fact that many liberals own guns are are pro-2A (I myself included). The problem is that many pro-2As, A LOT of people here included, choose to berate liberals and call them idiots (amongst other things). If you choose to make enemies of people that could help your cause, then by all means do it, but don't sit there and wonder why so many people are against you. *rant off*.

In other words, what I'm saying is, maybe it's time to change the approach
Good point.

I think every person who misuses the term "liberal" to mean "illiberal" (90% of the posters on this forum) should give themselves a big ol' punch in the gut for constantly making the job of the nonpartisan anti-statist so much harder, all for the "gain" of perpetuating the false paradigm of the "right" and the "left".

It's all a fantasy, and the sooner we deal with issues directly the sooner we can cross the "aisle" and meet in the middle to stop the constant assault on our rights.
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  #229  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:10 AM
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Persistence is key. Never give up. Run them into the ground and make them give up. It is a hard battle, but remember, what John Adams said:

"Posterity: you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it.
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  #230  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:32 AM
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Ever heard the quote "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."

"Being a realist" seems, in your book, to mean that you've lost all hope. Therefore, you are part of the problem.
Tit for tat.

Either that, or you can't recognize a stacked deck.
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Old 09-24-2009, 11:31 AM
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Tit for tat.

Either that, or you can't recognize a stacked deck.
Stacked deck or not, what alternative would you suggest to fighting the good fight? If we don't fight here, surely we will have to fight someplace else almost as a direct consequence of losing here as a result of not fighting the good fight here.

The nature of that which we fight against is such that we either continuously fight or we lose it all. There really isn't any middle ground because history has repeatedly shown that those we fight against want to take from us all our freedom. They want us to be slaves. Most of them are simply misguided or unable to think this through, but those at the top know exactly what they're doing and why: to increase their own power and control, and that of their peers and heirs.

The U.S. as an idea, as it was envisioned by the founders, is something that by its nature is an abomination in the eyes of the greedy and power hungry, because it places power in our hands and not theirs. The fight against them is continuous by its very nature. And if we do not wish to become slaves, it's a fight we must fight. The fight for 2A rights is but one facet of that, and it's an important one.

So yes, you could easily be right about losing the fight here. But would you really do things any differently, knowing the above?
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  #232  
Old 09-24-2009, 1:52 PM
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Tit for tat.

Either that, or you can't recognize a stacked deck.
"Still, if you will not fight for the right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than live as slaves." Sir Winston Churchill.
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  #233  
Old 09-24-2009, 6:29 PM
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Stacked deck or not, what alternative would you suggest to fighting the good fight? If we don't fight here, surely we will have to fight someplace else almost as a direct consequence of losing here as a result of not fighting the good fight here.

The nature of that which we fight against is such that we either continuously fight or we lose it all. There really isn't any middle ground because history has repeatedly shown that those we fight against want to take from us all our freedom. They want us to be slaves. Most of them are simply misguided or unable to think this through, but those at the top know exactly what they're doing and why: to increase their own power and control, and that of their peers and heirs.

The U.S. as an idea, as it was envisioned by the founders, is something that by its nature is an abomination in the eyes of the greedy and power hungry, because it places power in our hands and not theirs. The fight against them is continuous by its very nature. And if we do not wish to become slaves, it's a fight we must fight. The fight for 2A rights is but one facet of that, and it's an important one.
Thank you for your kind and sensible reply.

I have not given up, I am not a defeatist. I simply am not in the NRA, and that is my prerogative.

Additionally, my reasons for moving out of state have very little to do with 2A issues.


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So yes, you could easily be right about losing the fight here. But would you really do things any differently, knowing the above?
Politically, California is like a snake with many heads, everyone is clamoring for something different, as we slither along without any solid direction.

I have some ideas for a change in tactics. However, these ideas would be far too radical for about 98% of the members on this message board. (no, they do not include the use of violence)

Until the false Democrat-Republican dialectic is broken, little will change.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



Therefore, everyone who has taken a disliking to me and advocated the continuance of the current modus operandi, are in fact correct in their assertion that this is the only effect way in the present system.


In my personal view, until the day that American adults learn to assert themselves as sovereign citizens, exercising self-reliance, self-determination, self-responsibility, and self-governance, the creeping Collectivist gradualism will push California into becoming the first "UK" of these great united states.
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  #234  
Old 09-24-2009, 7:05 PM
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I don't know what it will take for you to see that we're winning.... but this sure doesn't look like defeat to me..

Lots of people are working in lots of different venues to secure our 2A rights.

Remember, we have to win EVERY time, the anti's just have to win once.

Its substantially more work on our end of the stick.




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  #235  
Old 09-24-2009, 9:57 PM
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I like that pic. It reminds me of the Surplus store in Terminator, or was that Commando.

Ohh snap, Arnold was in both of those movies. The irony is chilling.
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  #236  
Old 09-24-2009, 10:47 PM
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Everything in that pic has a MMG grip or is otherwise featureless, a magazine locking device, and is not on "the list"......

While there is a whole lotta win there,.....there is still a whole lotta fail too. We have a ways to go.
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  #237  
Old 09-24-2009, 11:18 PM
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We have a ways to go.
I'm glad you agree we're further from 2000 than closer. However, you have to admit that you sound like someone whose patience is not confident of the eventual win. That's more a comment about your patience than the actual outcome.

Which 3-4 year span did gun rights in California get better in the last 30 other than the last 3-4?

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  #238  
Old 09-24-2009, 11:32 PM
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I'm glad you agree we're further from 2000 than closer. However, you have to admit that you sound like someone whose patience is not confident of the eventual win. That's more a comment about your patience than the actual outcome.

You are correct there. I lack patience. However, I am confident. I know you guys know how to handle business. That is why I believe so many trust our fate in your(CGF) hands...



Which 3-4 year span did gun rights in California get better in the last 30 other than the last 3-4?

-Gene
I think thats a trick question....
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  #239  
Old 09-24-2009, 11:49 PM
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Originally Posted by SickofSoCal View Post
Tit for tat.

Either that, or you can't recognize a stacked deck.
Defeatest crap.

It's not over until we say it is.

The offer is still extended. Are you willing to take flyers to businesses and FIGHT misguided legislation like AB962 and SB585?

You can make a difference.
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  #240  
Old 09-25-2009, 1:06 AM
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Defeatest crap.
Call it what you will. He's almost certainly right. The people who want to disarm us are very rich and very powerful. Their money and influence is their advantage.

We have our own advantage: our numbers. That is sadly no guarantee of victory, otherwise we would have won long ago. But it is an advantage.

It's an advantage we will lose if we choose to ignore and lambaste those who would tell it like it is.

Calling a spade a spade does not make one a quitter, and ignoring the truth does not make one stronger.

This is a fight we must fight in order to regain the liberties we have lost and to prevent the loss of any more of them. To win, you must know what you're up against.

Ignore that at your peril.


Quote:
You can make a difference.
Yep. That's true regardless of your assessment of the progress of the fight.

Last edited by kcbrown; 09-25-2009 at 4:10 AM..
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