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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #1  
Old 06-20-2018, 2:09 PM
Usmc0844spare Usmc0844spare is offline
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Default Alive at the end of the shift

All, please don't let the following line of questions fool you, I really am on your side. Just trying to formulate an informed opinion.

1) Some internet talk about how the emphasis of LEO has changed from "serve and protect" to "make it home alive". For those with some longevity, does that ring true?

2) When I was in the reserves, I realized, and accepted, that at some point some idiot might tell me "sorry dude, your turn to charge the machine gun" and I would HAVE TO DO IT, cuz that's what I signed up for, like it or not. Have been wondering if the LEO version of this isn't "I might have to take a second or 2 extra to try and figure out if that person is actually reaching for a gun (or if that thing that MIGHT BE a gun in his hand actually IS a gun), and that could cost me my life, cuz that's what I signed up for, like it or not."

Obviously a lot to unpack in some of that, not suggesting that LEO and military are the same thing (but then I sorta AM suggesting that). You can see how the 2 questions dovetail together.

I can definitely see some strong reactions coming, so be gentle. I am not a cop obviously.
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  #2  
Old 06-20-2018, 2:52 PM
esy esy is offline
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I don’t have as much time on as many others on here. I would say that my mindset is definitely to make it home. I don’t find anything wrong with that. It gives me a goal and something unbelievably tangible to work towards everyday of my life. I still work my butt off, do my job, and make sure I do it the right way without cutting corners.

The satisfaction of going home to my wife, my dogs, our home, and my life, in general, is significantly greater to me than being able to say, “I caught that bad guy, etc., etc.” I am not defined by my job.

#2 is more of a statement than a question and I think I know what you’re getting at. In essence, hesitation kills and I’m not in the business of hesitating. Rules of engagement from military and LE are different because of what the military is afforded. If you’re going to tell me that we can wear helmets, plates, have a rifle slung over our shoulder, walking around tanks, etc., etc. then I’d be more than happy to take on the military’s rules of engagement.

That’s not the case though. My department doesn’t even allow load bearing tac vests unless you’re in our specialized Units like POP, gangs, etc. All we get is soft body armor that a knife can go through, that blunt force trauma could mortally wound from just a .38 special, that a rifle round can eat up like a hot knife through butter. All we have in terms of lethal options is our sidearm on us at all times with our long guns (many departments have eliminated the shotgun as a lethal option like mine did) locked up in our cars or armory.

That’s the big difference, IMO. LE and military definitely share some similarities. The biggest difference from what I can see (I’m not former military) is the equipment that we are both afforded and that dictates our rules of engagement, IMO.
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Old 06-20-2018, 3:01 PM
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When I was hired in 1981 rule #1 was, "make it home alive". Charging that machine gun, well sure, active shooter in a school comes to mind.
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Old 06-20-2018, 7:10 PM
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1. One of my mentors (salty retired detective) that helped me get into the LE field has always told me, "I'd rather get tried by 12 than carried by six". I carry his words highly and ultimately I do want to get home to my family. I'm pretty sure regardless of what field you're in, everyone carries that mantra either to higher or less degree.

2. What esy said, hesitation kills. Always make the scene safe before proceeding to engaging in anything else.
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Old 06-20-2018, 7:38 PM
CinnamonBear723 CinnamonBear723 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by esy View Post
I donít have as much time on as many others on here. I would say that my mindset is definitely to make it home. I donít find anything wrong with that. It gives me a goal and something unbelievably tangible to work towards everyday of my life. I still work my butt off, do my job, and make sure I do it the right way without cutting corners.

The satisfaction of going home to my wife, my dogs, our home, and my life, in general, is significantly greater to me than being able to say, ďI caught that bad guy, etc., etc.Ē I am not defined by my job.

#2 is more of a statement than a question and I think I know what youíre getting at. In essence, hesitation kills and Iím not in the business of hesitating. Rules of engagement from military and LE are different because of what the military is afforded. If youíre going to tell me that we can wear helmets, plates, have a rifle slung over our shoulder, walking around tanks, etc., etc. then Iíd be more than happy to take on the militaryís rules of engagement.

Thatís not the case though. My department doesnít even allow load bearing tac vests unless youíre in our specialized Units like POP, gangs, etc. All we get is soft body armor that a knife can go through, that blunt force trauma could mortally wound from just a .38 special, that a rifle round can eat up like a hot knife through butter. All we have in terms of lethal options is our sidearm on us at all times with our long guns (many departments have eliminated the shotgun as a lethal option like mine did) locked up in our cars or armory.

Thatís the big difference, IMO. LE and military definitely share some similarities. The biggest difference from what I can see (Iím not former military) is the equipment that we are both afforded and that dictates our rules of engagement, IMO.
Pretty much covers how I feel as well. I like to help and all, but it's kinda difficult to help when ur dead.
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  #6  
Old 06-20-2018, 10:37 PM
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1) Not sure what you consider “longevity” or seniority but I’ve been with my department for a little over 20 years. IMnshO, I believe that there has Always been an emphasis on BOTH “serve and protect” and “going home safe at the end of shift” and they are Not mutually exclusive (i.e. it’s possible to have and/or emphasize both at the same time – like “warrior” and “guardian”, it’s not one or the other). In recent years, while we still provide service to and protect our communities, I know that for me and many other instructors, we have highly emphasized officer safety and tactics (going home safe) simply because society has become increasingly more dangerous for everyone, especially LE – IMO, we are facing higher percentages or frequencies of assaults, attacks, ambushes, etc now than ever before.

2) Not sure if I’m picturing exactly what you’re saying but I would have a real hard time with Anyone ordering me to take one for the team who isn’t right there with me taking it for the team as well! (Clueless ahole upper management sitting in the comfort of an office deciding that LEOs out in the field facing rocks and bottles should take off their riot helmets because they look too intimidating or threatening comes to mind). I think your example is a little off – on one hand you have someone else telling you to charge the machine gun on the other hand, you have an LEO deciding on his/her own to hesitate (instead of someone else telling the LEO that he/she needs to make sure a deadly threat is 100% real or legitimate before reacting). Btw, CA is heading that way now with AB931.

I think the vast vast vast majority of people who claim that someone (e.g. civilian LE or military) should accept being abused, seriously hurt or killed because they (the people claiming) believe it’s part of a soldier or cop’s job have NEVER been in harm’s way and have NEVER been a part of Any solution to Any of society’s problems – just STFU already.
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Old 06-21-2018, 12:17 AM
CBR_rider CBR_rider is offline
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1) Doubt it; considering I have worked alongside of and talked with retired LEO's at length over the years; some of whom started their careers in the 50's and 60's. None of them ever mentioned having any real goals at work other than making it home each night, making it to retirement at the end of their careers, and making it to the end of their lives knowing they did the right thing each day at work.

2) I think I get where you are coming from here; and as someone else said this might be akin to facing an active shooter at a school and choosing to go in alone (or not, like the apparent Coward of Broward). Believe it or not; many LEO's (nearly all perhaps at some point or another in their careers?) make decisions every day to put themselves in further jeopardy if you will in an effort to bring a situation to it's most peaceful conclusion (though that doesn't mean without a use of force). I know a guy who got reprimanded for NOT shooting a guy with a knife because he feared he would kill the subject and he didn't want to shoot a mentally ill person (the reprimand was probably justified.... the subject nearly sliced a bystander up), I have personally NOT thrown some punches/or used as hard a force as I should have because I didn't want to hurt the other person (and in every case it wound up biting me in the butt), I know many LEO's, myself included, who have taken those few extra moments and NOT taken shots when we could have believing that a little extra time could prevent a shooting... of course because no shooting took place those incidents are never known.
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Old 06-21-2018, 1:56 AM
9M62 9M62 is offline
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Dying is not a part of the job. Ever.

Period, end of discussion.
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Old 06-21-2018, 1:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Usmc0844spare View Post
1) Some internet talk about how the emphasis of LEO has changed from "serve and protect" to "make it home alive". For those with some longevity, does that ring true?
IMO...

Both statements are complimentary.

Keep in mind that, because of Federal court rulings since the late-1970s, "serve and protect" means serving and protecting the Government.

Starting in the late-1970s, Federal courts started ruling that the police is not responsible or liable for an individual's safety or protection and that their duty is to enforce the laws and protect the government. SCOTUS upheld this in the mid-2000s.

This is one of the reasons why the term "peace officer" has been replaced with "law enforcement officer".
^A "peace officer" was responsible for maintaining the peace and was beholden to the community they served and a "law enforcement officer" is responsible for enforcing laws and protecting the government that employs them.

So, "making it home alive" means you will be able to continue with serving and protecting the Government.
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Old 06-21-2018, 2:34 PM
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"serve and protect" was a PR slogan dreamed up by LAPD. It's like the current one "community policing". That is not the LEO mindset. There were times in my career where I had to do things that I thought might end me. Did I want to do those things? No. But when I swore an oath I knew that doing things like that were part of the package.

My son wanted to go into law enforcement. I told him I would cripple him if he applied. I told him to read through Calguns and other online forums to see how people hate and despise LEOs. No matter what you do you are the corrupt bad guy. The whole "but he made it home alive" BS that is non stop is a slap in the face of Men and Women that honorably want to make a difference in society.
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Old 06-21-2018, 2:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
This is one of the reasons why the term "peace officer" has been replaced with "law enforcement officer".
IME, LE/LEO is more commonly used but PO is still found in our statutes:
http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...de=PEN&title=3.
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