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  #1  
Old 03-31-2018, 3:17 PM
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Default To those of you that believe in hell

The concept Hell is one of the reasons I've backed away from my Presbyterian roots, and the Pope's recent comments on the topic have me thinking. For those of you who believe in hell, do you believe that people who's souls end up in hell are:

A) big time dirt bags in real life, i.e., serial killers child abusers, etc., or

B) those that deny Jesus Christ, or

C) both?

If you believe the pedos, Dahmer, Hitlers and Clinton's will burn forever, didn't Jesus die for ALL of our sins? Or was there a list he submitted of exceptions? Do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice was only worth absolving white collar criminals, petty criminals and average Jerks? Is that all God's only born son was worth?

If you believe that anyone who rejects God goes to hell, do you believe that all the mass killers who repented, all the child murderers who had death row conversions, and all the dead human traffickers who God fearingly wore gold crosses around their necks are sitting in heaven, yet the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and every Rabbi will rot In hades for eternity?

And as a bonus question; for those of you who feel your beloved Aunt Percy is 'smiling down from heaven' and that Osama Bin Laden is 'rotting in hell', then you must believe that God has somehow already passed judgment on all dead people and is doing so on a rolling basis? For you, do you still believe in the biblical judgement day? Do you believe there will be a second coming? What would be the purpose, in your mind, if God's already sorting and filing all the souls as they come in? Seems kind of redundant and unnecessary to me.

Last edited by The Duke; 03-31-2018 at 3:21 PM.. Reason: Error
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Old 03-31-2018, 3:23 PM
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So you are saying it is Not Escondido?
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Old 03-31-2018, 3:58 PM
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So you are saying it is Not Escondido?
Not until you shave off west Escondido. That, sir, is still the promised land.
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Old 03-31-2018, 4:13 PM
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Since you have church roots, you have probably heard this verse quoted, “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:23

Salvation is a free gift. As for who is saved and who isn’t, no person can tell you who is in heaven or hades. But the scriptures tell the believer that when we die, we are immediately with Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:8, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

But who is a worse sinner, you, me or the evil people you mentioned? The answer is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We are equally condemned.

“But God demonstrates His own love to us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. “ Romans 5:8

That is the gift I mentioned. Christ paid the penalty for our sins. We can accept that gift and have the hope of eternal life that comes with it.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

Happy Resurrection Day
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Old 03-31-2018, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Since you have church roots, you have probably heard this verse quoted, “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:23

Salvation is a free gift. As for who is saved and who isn’t, no person can tell you who is in heaven or hades. But the scriptures tell the believer that when we die, we are immediately with Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:8, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

But who is a worse sinner, you, me or the evil people you mentioned? The answer is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We are equally condemned.

“But God demonstrates His own love to us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. “ Romans 5:8

That is the gift I mentioned. Christ paid the penalty for our sins. We can accept that gift and have the hope of eternal life that comes with it.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

Happy Resurrection Day
When Jesus was at the stake with a criminal, he said 'truly I say to you, today you will be with me in heaven.' or is the comma in the wrong place? Did he say 'truly I say to you today, you will be with me in heaven" which more means he's saying now that after the resurrection and judgment day, this crook will SOMEDAY ascend to heaven. Your quotes make it no more clear to me. Care to express an opinion?
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Old 04-01-2018, 1:56 AM
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ill give my reply later.... traveling atm. Great question though.
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Old 04-01-2018, 3:49 AM
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Jesus speaks more of hell, than He does of heaven, in the Gospel.

The only people who are ever 'surprised' by this, are the ones who DON'T read their Bible...
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Old 04-01-2018, 4:42 AM
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The lake of fire. From the bible represents hell. Crime and punishment. Achievement and reward. Heaven and hell. Life is all about decision.
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Old 04-01-2018, 5:03 AM
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
The concept Hell is one of the reasons I've backed away from my Presbyterian roots, and the Pope's recent comments on the topic have me thinking. For those of you who believe in hell, do you believe that people who's souls end up in hell are:

A) big time dirt bags in real life, i.e., serial killers child abusers, etc., or

B) those that deny Jesus Christ, or

C) both?

If you believe the pedos, Dahmer, Hitlers and Clinton's will burn forever, didn't Jesus die for ALL of our sins? Or was there a list he submitted of exceptions? Do you believe that Jesus' sacrifice was only worth absolving white collar criminals, petty criminals and average Jerks? Is that all God's only born son was worth?

If you believe that anyone who rejects God goes to hell, do you believe that all the mass killers who repented, all the child murderers who had death row conversions, and all the dead human traffickers who God fearingly wore gold crosses around their necks are sitting in heaven, yet the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and every Rabbi will rot In hades for eternity?

And as a bonus question; for those of you who feel your beloved Aunt Percy is 'smiling down from heaven' and that Osama Bin Laden is 'rotting in hell', then you must believe that God has somehow already passed judgment on all dead people and is doing so on a rolling basis? For you, do you still believe in the biblical judgement day? Do you believe there will be a second coming? What would be the purpose, in your mind, if God's already sorting and filing all the souls as they come in? Seems kind of redundant and unnecessary to me.
Will try to answer more later after church and family.

Per your phrasing, only those who deny Christ are in hell. I'd prefer to say that only those who acknowledge that they are sinners worthy of / destined to hell that accept Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation (Romans 6:23)are going to heaven. Faith alone, no works. You're not good enough / cannot be good enough. Salvation is a work all of God's (Ephesians 2:8-10). Ask Abraham (Romans 4:1-5).

Since ALL have sinned, ALL are destined to hell (Romans 3:23). The rest of that verse says ALL have fallen short of the glory of God. God defines sin as falling short of His perfect standard, His righteousness. So, ALL have fallen short of His perfect standard. That's why it doesn't matter how good you are (or bad) in this life, you still fall short. The Dalai, Gandhi, every Rabbi, and even Mother Teresa fall/fell short and need/needed to accept Christ's free gift of salvation. Whether or not they did is between them and the Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other end of falling short -the super bad - Jesus Christ's free gift is also available - no matter how bad your life has been. Ask King David - murderer, adulterer, terrible Father, etc. Ask Paul - murderer and persecutor of Christians. Ask the thief on the cross. Ask anyone who's ever been saved just how bad our lives were and how undeserving of heaven we were and still are. But, a free gift doesn't depend on how good or bad I am.

Today is a wonderful day to talk with the Lord. Admit you're a sinner and deserve hell. IOW, admit you fall short/have fallen short of His perfectness. And, accept His FREE gift of heaven, of eternal life. Tell Him you want His death to count as the death in hell that you deserve. Tell you want His life to be your life - eternally. Tell Him you don't understand it all, don't understand what has happened to all the good and bad people of the world, but want to start understanding through salvation in Him.

If you have any questions, need help, anything, just PM me! I'd love to see you all in the choir with me in heaven!

God bless and Happy Resurrection Sunday! He is RISEN!

(no time to review / edit - time for church!)
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Old 04-01-2018, 5:07 AM
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
When Jesus was at the stake with a criminal, he said 'truly I say to you, today you will be with me in heaven.' or is the comma in the wrong place? Did he say 'truly I say to you today, you will be with me in heaven" which more means he's saying now that after the resurrection and judgment day, this crook will SOMEDAY ascend to heaven. Your quotes make it no more clear to me. Care to express an opinion?
My second most favorite person in the Bible is Thiefawna Cross. (Sorry I couldn't resist. )

Firstly, the Greek word for the device used in crucifixion is STAFRON. Staff could be translated as a stake but the cross was indeed a vertical stake with a horizontal cross member. The Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus was crucified on a stake which is in error.

Quote:
Luke 23:39-43 39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!" 40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." 42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise."
The scripture says "today". That very day the believing thief would be with The Lord Jesus in paradise. The Apostle Paul affirms in the scriptures I posted above that to be absent form the body is to be in the presence of God. The moment a believer dies, said believer's spirit in in heaven with Christ Jesus.

Happy Resurrection Day
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Old 04-01-2018, 5:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
Since you have church roots, you have probably heard this verse quoted, “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:23

Salvation is a free gift. As for who is saved and who isn’t, no person can tell you who is in heaven or hades. But the scriptures tell the believer that when we die, we are immediately with Christ. (2 Corinthians 5:8, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

But who is a worse sinner, you, me or the evil people you mentioned? The answer is that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. We are equally condemned.

“But God demonstrates His own love to us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. “ Romans 5:8

That is the gift I mentioned. Christ paid the penalty for our sins. We can accept that gift and have the hope of eternal life that comes with it.

“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” John 3:16-17

Happy Resurrection Day
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
When Jesus was at the stake with a criminal, he said 'truly I say to you, today you will be with me in heaven.' or is the comma in the wrong place? Did he say 'truly I say to you today, you will be with me in heaven" which more means he's saying now that after the resurrection and judgment day, this crook will SOMEDAY ascend to heaven. Your quotes make it no more clear to me. Care to express an opinion?
Kokopelli Makes a great point in that if you lined everyone whoever lived based on what they did we would all be standing next to Hitler, with the exception of Jesus. We all failed. The requirement is perfection “be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect”. Anyone who truly repents of his sin and calls on Jesus to be his Lord and Saviour will be saved. Even if that’s Hitler. I don’t believe he was but only God knows. The price Christ paid was great enough for every sin that was or ever will be committed.

As to Heaven and the thief on the cross. There are different views as you pointed out in your change of punctuation. Which by the way the original didn’t use.
My opinion is we are immediately with Christ. Not in Heaven as most people think of Heaven with streets of gold and gates of pearl. That Heaven comes later on when Revelation speaks of a new Heaven and Earth. People of faith may disagree. The order of these things are not essential to the Faith.
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Old 04-01-2018, 5:19 AM
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Originally Posted by The Duke View Post
When Jesus was at the stake with a criminal, he said 'truly I say to you, today you will be with me in heaven.' or is the comma in the wrong place? Did he say 'truly I say to you today, you will be with me in heaven" which more means he's saying now that after the resurrection and judgment day, this crook will SOMEDAY ascend to heaven. Your quotes make it no more clear to me. Care to express an opinion?
I was always taught, not that I was taught correctly, that the legs of the thieves were broken so they could be let down from the cross so they wouldn't left hanging over the Sabbath. The thieves would still die, just not that day.
So, Christ would not be saying, Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be in Paradise. Since they wouldn't die that day. He would more than likely say, Verily I say unto you today, thou shalt be in Paradise.
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:29 AM
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I was always taught, not that I was taught correctly, that the legs of the thieves were broken so they could be let down from the cross so they wouldn't left hanging over the Sabbath. The thieves would still die, just not that day.
So, Christ would not be saying, Verily I say unto you, today thou shalt be in Paradise. Since they wouldn't die that day. He would more than likely say, Verily I say unto you today, thou shalt be in Paradise.
Breaking the legs and a crucified person (while crusifed) doesn't prolong death. Once legs are broken the body cannot hold itself up and the victim is unable to breathe causing death by suffocation.
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Old 04-01-2018, 10:43 AM
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"I swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell." - And When I Die

I was taught that Jesus saved us from Original sin (the one that got us cast from the garden of eden), and after that you are on your own.

i'm not religious, or perhaps i simply have not received the gift of faith, but i am holding out hope for hell, because it irks me to think that bad people will not suffer.
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Old 04-01-2018, 1:31 PM
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This is my perspective. There is God, who created everything in heaven and on earth, including each and every person. He also created the life we live and He created a plan of salvation. It's His rules that we must accept or reject. We are not in a position to bargain with Him. For reasons only known to Him, His plan of salvation requires that we accept Jesus' sacrifice as an atonement of our sins. It's common for mankind to compare their lives to how others have lived their lives, and to declare ourselves as good persons worthy of being saved. The problem with that way of thinking is it is inconsistent with God's plan that he expressed in His Bible.
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Old 04-01-2018, 1:57 PM
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You make yourself right with God and you go to Heaven. It is that simple. Men have made it needlessly complicated for political and financial purposes. One still has to live a good life going forward, but it is not a condition on accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. You have to come to it yourself; it cannot be bought like some Catholics hundreds of years ago believed.
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Old 04-01-2018, 2:01 PM
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Our pastor once said when you get to heaven you may be very surprised at who's there with you, and even more surprised at who's not...

One sin separates you from God whether serial killer, pedophile, or liar. That is why Jesus said "no one gets to the father except through Me". Jesus already paid for every single sin, but you have to accept that gift. Without accepting before you die, God will have to hold YOU accountable for your sin which means hell.
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Old 04-01-2018, 2:06 PM
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So, you are a crap head all your life, steal, lie, cheat, rape, murder and at the end on the death bed waiting for the needle, you say the prayer, you die a Christian and go to heaven. All about choices.
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Old 04-01-2018, 2:12 PM
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So, you are a crap head all your life, steal, lie, cheat, rape, murder and at the end on the death bed waiting for the needle, you say the prayer, you die a Christian and go to heaven. All about choices.
Yep, as said above we are all crap heads. We judge crapheadedness between ourselves but to God all crapheadedness is the same. One instance of crapheadedness will separate us unless we ask for his Mercy.
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by The War Wagon View Post
Jesus speaks more of hell, than He does of heaven, in the Gospel.

The only people who are ever 'surprised' by this, are the ones who DON'T read their Bible...
I've read that the word translated from Hebrew into our 'hell' simply means being dead? I've also been told how the medieval church used a fear of 'hell' to compel behavior from from the peoples?
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:34 PM
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Will try to answer more later after church and family.

Per your phrasing, only those who deny Christ are in hell. I'd prefer to say that only those who acknowledge that they are sinners worthy of / destined to hell that accept Jesus Christ's free gift of salvation (Romans 6:23)are going to heaven. Faith alone, no works. You're not good enough / cannot be good enough. Salvation is a work all of God's (Ephesians 2:8-10). Ask Abraham (Romans 4:1-5).

Since ALL have sinned, ALL are destined to hell (Romans 3:23). The rest of that verse says ALL have fallen short of the glory of God. God defines sin as falling short of His perfect standard, His righteousness. So, ALL have fallen short of His perfect standard. That's why it doesn't matter how good you are (or bad) in this life, you still fall short. The Dalai, Gandhi, every Rabbi, and even Mother Teresa fall/fell short and need/needed to accept Christ's free gift of salvation. Whether or not they did is between them and the Lord Jesus Christ.

On the other end of falling short -the super bad - Jesus Christ's free gift is also available - no matter how bad your life has been. Ask King David - murderer, adulterer, terrible Father, etc. Ask Paul - murderer and persecutor of Christians. Ask the thief on the cross. Ask anyone who's ever been saved just how bad our lives were and how undeserving of heaven we were and still are. But, a free gift doesn't depend on how good or bad I am.

Today is a wonderful day to talk with the Lord. Admit you're a sinner and deserve hell. IOW, admit you fall short/have fallen short of His perfectness. And, accept His FREE gift of heaven, of eternal life. Tell Him you want His death to count as the death in hell that you deserve. Tell you want His life to be your life - eternally. Tell Him you don't understand it all, don't understand what has happened to all the good and bad people of the world, but want to start understanding through salvation in Him.

If you have any questions, need help, anything, just PM me! I'd love to see you all in the choir with me in heaven!

God bless and Happy Resurrection Sunday! He is RISEN!

(no time to review / edit - time for church!)
So based on your definition, how narrow a definition of true christ do you feel there is? Reform Baptists and Protestants have very mild doctrinal distinctions {ie infant baptism, etc) so I'd assume both would be considered accepting the same true christ. But what about Jehovahs Witnesses or Seventh Day Adventists. They are truly devout and believe christ died for our sins. Would a loving God deny them heaven?

I have a hard time thinking of the Dalai Lama or Gandolfini, or even a catholic deserving eternal he'll fire.
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Kokopelli View Post
My second most favorite person in the Bible is Thiefawna Cross. (Sorry I couldn't resist. )

Firstly, the Greek word for the device used in crucifixion is STAFRON. Staff could be translated as a stake but the cross was indeed a vertical stake with a horizontal cross member. The Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus was crucified on a stake which is in error.



The scripture says "today". That very day the believing thief would be with The Lord Jesus in paradise. The Apostle Paul affirms in the scriptures I posted above that to be absent form the body is to be in the presence of God. The moment a believer dies, said believer's spirit in in heaven with Christ Jesus.

Happy Resurrection Day
So if the believer is already in heaven, judged and deemed worthy, what's the point of a judgment day or 2nd coming? Why would I care if 'he is risen'?
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:42 PM
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As to Heaven and the thief on the cross. There are different views as you pointed out in your change of punctuation. Which by the way the original didn’t use.
My opinion is we are immediately with Christ. Not in Heaven as most people think of Heaven with streets of gold and gates of pearl. That Heaven comes later on when Revelation speaks of a new Heaven and Earth. People of faith may disagree. The order of these things are not essential to the Faith.
So at first I thought you were on the verge of clearing it up for me, then you got even more confusing! We are immediately with Christ, but not in heaven? Would this go for all peoples, believer or not, since no one had yet been judged on judgment day? A somewhat holy, better than on earth, but not quite heavenly waiting zone?
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:44 PM
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So, you are a crap head all your life, steal, lie, cheat, rape, murder and at the end on the death bed waiting for the needle, you say the prayer, you die a Christian and go to heaven. All about choices.
I think Jesus would agree, without your sarcasm. If the conversion were genuine from the heart, as were the repentance from prior sin....

But I somehow feel a dastardly human who lived a life of evil with a master plan of late live conversion would have an extremely difficult time of genuinely pulling it off... When one can see clearly into his heart.
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Old 04-02-2018, 12:11 AM
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I think Jesus would agree, without your sarcasm. If the conversion were genuine from the heart, as were the repentance from prior sin....

But I somehow feel a dastardly human who lived a life of evil with a master plan of late live conversion would have an extremely difficult time of genuinely pulling it off... When one can see clearly into his heart.
All sarcasm aside. Many folks near the end of their lives find Jesus. As far as being a bad guy your whole life and meeting the end by the state, using the prayer as in insurance policy doesn't cut it. God truly knows our hearts. When we become Christian, a changes takes place, we will never be perfect, we are of the flesh, we do our best, ask for God's mercy and love and live the best we can.
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Old 04-02-2018, 6:24 AM
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I've read that the word translated from Hebrew into our 'hell' simply means being dead? I've also been told how the medieval church used a fear of 'hell' to compel behavior from from the peoples?
The word you are talking about is ge'enna, which is/was a valley in jerusalem. The valley was used as a garbage dump and was constantly being burned off. It is used to describe hell, a place of refuse and constant burning.

You can Google it, Strong's g1067. Strong's is an index of every word found in the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts.
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Old 04-02-2018, 8:06 AM
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So at first I thought you were on the verge of clearing it up for me, then you got even more confusing! We are immediately with Christ, but not in heaven? Would this go for all peoples, believer or not, since no one had yet been judged on judgment day? A somewhat holy, better than on earth, but not quite heavenly waiting zone?
Being with Christ could be considered being in Heaven, my point is most people think of Heaven as the eternal place we dwell with God. Revelation tells of a New Heaven and a New Earth. In my humble opinion ( I may well be wrong ) the new Heaven is the place we will spend eternity with God.

As to the second question only those who put their faith in Christ. Even though as you pointed out the Judgment Day has not yet occurred God knows who has trusted Christ and who has not already. As to the lost? I'm not sure, but if you believe the Jesus' parable about The Rich Man and Lazarus is not just a story but true, then the non-believer goes right to hell..
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Old 04-02-2018, 11:40 AM
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Breaking the legs and a crucified person (while crusifed) doesn't prolong death. Once legs are broken the body cannot hold itself up and the victim is unable to breathe causing death by suffocation.
Agreed, Mossy. Hence my statement that I was "taught but that doesn't mean that I was taught correctly." More so since I was taught by Seventh Day Adventists.
Interestingly, most of the paintings I remember from my youth and school Bible classes showed the theives tied to the crosses with ropes, while Christ was nailed. I'm not sure where that idea came from.

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Old 04-02-2018, 12:37 PM
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But I somehow feel a dastardly human who lived a life of evil with a master plan of late live conversion would have an extremely difficult time of genuinely pulling it off... When one can see clearly into his heart.
Saul, like the others in the mob covered his ears and yelling at the top of his voice, helped drag Saint Stephen out of the city. The witnesses laid their clothes at Saul’s feet and he gave his approval to the stoning of Stephen to death. On that day, a great persecution broke out against the Christian church at Jerusalem and Saul became the chief persecutor.

Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord’s disciples. He went to the high priest and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, so that if he found any there who belonged to 'The Way', whether men or women, he might take them as prisoners to Jerusalem (Acts 9:1-2). On the road to Damascus, Christ appeared to him personally.

Saul, now called the Apostle Paul, never forgot the depths of his sin and experienced the heights of God’s grace in his life.

"I tell you, her sins--and they are many--have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love." Luke 7:47 NLT

There is no limits to the love, grace and forgiveness of Jesus Christ.

"O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”

For sin is the sting that results in death, and the law gives sin its power. But thank God! He gives us victory over sin and death through our Lord Jesus Christ."
- 1 Corinthians 15:55-57
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Old 04-02-2018, 4:52 PM
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What is hell on earth? We all know the answer to that since we created it. For those of us who now live in California we allowed the devil to take over and we are paying the price for not standing up and being counted. Ronald Reagan might have had a point about escaping and no place to go.
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Old 04-03-2018, 8:47 AM
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[QUOTE=Kokopelli;21470357]

Firstly, the Greek word for the device used in crucifixion is STAFRON. Staff could be translated as a stake but the cross was indeed a vertical stake with a horizontal cross member. The Jehovah Witnesses believe that Jesus was crucified on a stake which is in error.


Please indicate your reference for this statement. The Greek word stafron does not appear in Vines Expository Dictionary or Strong's...
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Old 04-04-2018, 11:42 AM
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Please indicate your reference for this statement. The Greek word stafron does not appear in Vines Expository Dictionary or Strong's...
Sorry. It's been decades since I studied Greek. I should have posted "stauron" not "stafron".

From http://biblehub.com/greek/4716.htm

Quote:
STRONGS NT 4716: σταυρός, σταυροῦ, ὁ (from ἵστημι (root sta); cf. Latinstauro, English staff (see Skeat, Etymological Dictionary, under the word); Curtius, § 216; Vanicek, p. 1126);

Forms and Transliterations: σταυρον σταυρόν σταυρὸν σταυρος σταυρός σταυρὸς σταυρου σταυρού σταυροῦ σταυρω σταυρώ σταυρῷ stauro staurō staurôi staurō̂i stauron stauròn stauros stauròs staurou stauroû
References:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet

https://www.rapidtables.com/math/sym..._alphabet.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_alphabet
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Old 04-04-2018, 4:29 PM
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Thank you, Kokopelli
Greek words are very insightful, I even have a Vines Dictionary app on my phone
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Old 04-08-2018, 1:52 PM
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I do not believe Hell is eternal torture.
There is no strong evidence to support eternal punishment and no real reason for it to exist.
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Old 04-08-2018, 2:09 PM
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I do not believe Hell is eternal torture.
There is no strong evidence to support eternal punishment and no real reason for it to exist.
Revelation 20:10 tells us that the lake of fire is eternal torment. It lasts forever. Revelation 20:14 tells us that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Taking them together in context, it appears that it is eternal torment at that point. Revelation 20:15 says that anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire exist because it is a place of punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. That reference escapes me at the moment.
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Old 04-08-2018, 4:20 PM
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Revelation 20:10 tells us that the lake of fire is eternal torment. It lasts forever. Revelation 20:14 tells us that death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Taking them together in context, it appears that it is eternal torment at that point. Revelation 20:15 says that anyone not found in the book of life is cast into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire exist because it is a place of punishment prepared for the devil and his angels. That reference escapes me at the moment.
The lake of fire is place where discarded things are burned and consumed. The fact that is created for the devil and not man is meaningful in that it is not meant for man to burn eternally. Unrepentant man is punished eternally but do not endure eternal punishment
Hebrews 10:26-27—"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God."

Psalms 9:5—"You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked; you have blotted out their name for ever and ever."

Matthew 10:28—"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

There are a ton of scripture indicating that eternal life must be obtained via a gift. This suggest eternal life is something not yet had. If we all have eternal life the only difference is where we spend it there are some scriptural inconsistencies.

In other words there are scriptures on both sides of the arguments. I tend to think most in favor of eternal punishment tend to be apocalyptic in nature ans as such tend to be descriptive rather than prescriptive.
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Old 04-08-2018, 4:23 PM
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I try not to think about it too much. Life is short, I have eternity to figure out heaven or hell.
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Old 04-08-2018, 5:38 PM
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Rev.20:10 & 14 seems to say that only certain parties are subjected to the eternal punishment. While the Lake of Fire may burn eternally, it does not say that all sinners are punished eternally.
So, does one burn eternally, or does one get burned up eternally?
Eternal life is a gift of God. Does that mean that He must grant some form of eternal existence in order for someone to be punished eternally?
God tells us twice in Ezekiel that He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I can't see a loving, merciful God physically punishing someone for all eternity. I can see Him causing someone to cease to exist for all eternity.

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Old 04-08-2018, 6:23 PM
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For those of you who believe in hell, do you believe that people who's souls end up in hell are:

A) big time dirt bags in real life, i.e., serial killers child abusers, etc., or

B) those that deny Jesus Christ, or

C) both?
My understanding of scripture is this. Because of original sin, all of mankind is condemned to hell. This is to say that aside from Jesus Christ's virgin birth, we are all both with condemnation stemming from original sin. How is this evident? On a practical scale, as early as I have memories, I have memories of being doing things that were immoral. Whether it was stealing a cookie or telling a "white lie." I think most people, if truly introspective, can at least admit they were not born perfect.

So does God send the super baddies to hell or anyone that denies Christ? I think the bible is clear that all those who are not saved by God's grace, through the life and perfect sacrifice of His son Jesus Christ, will face eternal damnation in hell. This includes people we know and love that do lots of wonderful things with their lives on earth. Without salvation through Christ, no one enters heaven, no matter how "good" they were. There's nothing we can do to reach heaven by our own works.

So how does one gain salvation? There are two major groups on thought within the protestant church today.

1. Christ died for everyone of all time, and salvation is a gift we just need to reach out and accept. Some will choose to accept, some will not. Those that do are saved, those that don't are not. An underlying concept sometimes found in this belief is that one can lose their salvation, which I do not believe is possible. Once God has written a name in the book of life, how is man to change that ledger?

2. Humans are born in total depravity (completely corrupted by sin) and their nature is to be in contention with God and ONLY intervention by God, through the Holy Spirit, will a person's nature be forever changed so that they are open to the reality of who Christ is and his salvation. This train of thought is associated with "reformed" or "covenant" theology and basically means that Christ died for ONLY the people past, present, and future that would be saved by his grace. It means that once the Holy Spirit changes your nature (through no work of your own) you will find God's grace irresistible and therefor find that you have gained salvation through no work of your own. Your salvation was completely accomplished by God and can never be taken away from you. Your life from there forward should be lived in obedience to God's word out of gratitude for the grace that He has given you, not out of fear of losing salvation. We will make mistake along the way and maybe even struggle our whole lives with sin, but that won't weigh on our justification, only our sanctification. This is what I believe.

Most churches believe some variation of #1 and fewer #2. I think both ideas are held firmly within churches full of saved Christians. Though ultimately I think there is one right answer to all issues in the bible.

So does God save murderers, rapists, etc? I can only assume God has, but we cannot truly know the hearts of man nor their status as being "saved" or not. But we do know that the bible makes the claim that no sin is insurmountable by Christ's sacrifice, except to grieve the Holy Spirit, which is to not be saved at all.

The way I think of it is this... any imperfection, including original sin, condemns mankind to hell. As such, we are born running from God. Out of God's love for mankind, he chooses to turn some of us around, so that we run towards him. We are completely undeserving of it, but by his mercy and grace, we are saved.

I also believe that Christ's sacrifice cannot be a failure in any way, since it was the one and only "perfect" sacrifice. Not good enough, but perfect. If we claim he suffered and died for all, is it not a failure of Christ's when someone is not saved? Why did he sacrifice beyond what is necessary, if God knows in advance many will not be saved? If one digs into it, I think the bible is clear that salvation is not for all, but only for a predestined group of people, that WILL be saved, regardless of the severity of their sins.

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If you believe that anyone who rejects God goes to hell, do you believe that all the mass killers who repented, all the child murderers who had death row conversions, and all the dead human traffickers who God fearingly wore gold crosses around their necks are sitting in heaven, yet the Dalai Lama, Gandhi and every Rabbi will rot In hades for eternity?
I believe God's will, will be done and often it is beyond our understanding. So yes, as much as I don't like the thought of it (as a vengeful sinner) I believe that there are cases of genuine salvation occurring in these types of people. But it's not about saying sorry or wearing some gold cross. It's about the Holy Spirit changing a person's sin nature into one that will accept Christ, and their subsequent repentance. And all those "good" people, are far from perfect, and if the bible is to be believed, then we need to believe that no payment for sin is sufficient aside from the sacrifice of Christ.

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And as a bonus question; for those of you who feel your beloved Aunt Percy is 'smiling down from heaven' and that Osama Bin Laden is 'rotting in hell', then you must believe that God has somehow already passed judgment on all dead people and is doing so on a rolling basis? For you, do you still believe in the biblical judgement day? Do you believe there will be a second coming? What would be the purpose, in your mind, if God's already sorting and filing all the souls as they come in? Seems kind of redundant and unnecessary to me.
As we die, we are met with judgement. We are either saved by Christ or we are not. Those that are saved enter heaven, those that are not enter hell. Those in heaven are not in their "glorified bodies" that the bible talks about, so there is a sense of unfinished business in the bible.

This business is finished with the second coming of Christ and all the other events outlined in Revelation. Judgement day, as you mean, I believe is the day when those left on earth will be judged, without death necessarily and once and for all mankind is separated into heaven and hell. From here God will create the new heavens, new earth, and those of us in heaven will receive our glorified bodies and our final home in the new heaven and new earth for eternity.

I apologize for absolutely zero references, sadly this is an area of weakness for me. I can retain stories and ideas, but I struggle to invest the time needed to retain the information to that level of detail.

I hope this new curiosity drives you closer to Jesus Christ our Lord!
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Old 04-08-2018, 8:17 PM
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This post is already too long to read through it all or post anything worthwhile.
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