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  #1  
Old 06-13-2018, 8:33 AM
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Default Gen5 Glock , VP9 and M&P 2.0

Between VP9 , GEN5 Glock and M&P 2.0 , is there a clear cut winner ? I am talking strictly duty/HD gun.
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Old 06-13-2018, 9:15 AM
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VP9 for the win.
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Old 06-13-2018, 9:33 AM
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You can never go wrong with a Glock for HD.
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Old 06-13-2018, 9:52 AM
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VP9 has the paddle mag release, so you have that to consider (+ or -)

Nothing special about a Gen5 Glock, unless you just want to spend money on the latest. A Gen 3 or 4 gets the job done for cheaper.

Bottom line, they all work fine for defense

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Old 06-13-2018, 9:57 AM
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Which Glock?

I got to shoot a VP9 after a recent L Vickers class, AFTER the fundamentals were pounded into me for two days, I did a pretty fast two mag dump into a ragged hole the size of a golf ball. Very nice fit in my hand and natural pointing tendency.

That said, I just bought a gen 3 Glock 19 for home defense. Vickers strongly advocates that itís his favorite hd pistol, and my only Glock is a .27. I wanted to get something for classes and idpa, so I got the one that was $500.

I wonít pay the premium for a VP9 or a gen 5, the 3 does everything I need it to do. M an P is nice, I shot that, too, but not exceptional.

For me, itís Glock or the VP, and I could buy two glocks for the single vp.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:10 AM
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The best of both worlds is the M&P with an APEX trigger. The grip is the glock is not to my likING but the mag capacity for the H&K isn't either.

Plus 1 for M&P. You get a low bore axis and two more rounds.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:31 AM
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My choice is a Gen 5 G17 though I'm biased as I have more experience with Glock handguns over all my H&K's or M&P's. I've never owned a striker fired H&K but I never shot my USP or P30L that well and all my M&P's went to Apex and had many upgrades. YMMV
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:32 AM
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Don't think there is a winner between the three. Glocks work and I have a VP9 and it's been great. The M&P 2.0 is supposed to be a nice pistol but I have no experience with them.
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Old 06-13-2018, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by the Scholar View Post
Don't think there is a winner between the three. Glocks work and I have a VP9 and it's been great. The M&P 2.0 is supposed to be a nice pistol but I have no experience with them.

I had the FDE M&P 2.0, with the 5Ē barrel....shot well....but for me, it was not any better than my home defense G34. I sold the 2.0 since it was worth more money in Cali.

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Old 06-13-2018, 11:13 AM
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Why not buy all of them and try it out? Only you can figure out which platform work the best for you. I am sure all 3 are reliable. Also don't forget CZ P10C and Walther PPQ.
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Old 06-13-2018, 11:45 AM
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I really like the new M&P 2.0, especially with a good trigger like an Apex.
I also really like Glocks, but haven't been too impressed by the gen 5. I don't really like the cutout in the mag well and I actually kinda like the finger grooves.
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Old 06-13-2018, 12:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
I really like the new M&P 2.0, especially with a good trigger like an Apex.
I also really like Glocks, but haven't been too impressed by the gen 5. I don't really like the cutout in the mag well...
Same, I don't care for the cutout. Gently used Gen 4 G19s can be found for a reasonable price, and they're outstanding. Interchangeable backstraps are a plus as well.

The VP9 fits like a glove, and you can dial in the grip fit with the back and side panels. Great shooting gun.

No bad choice here.
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Old 06-13-2018, 1:59 PM
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Same, I don't care for the cutout. Gently used Gen 4 G19s can be found for a reasonable price, and they're outstanding. Interchangeable backstraps are a plus as well.

The VP9 fits like a glove, and you can dial in the grip fit with the back and side panels. Great shooting gun.

No bad choice here.
The Gen 3 is the best IMO with or without finger groves. Get a RMR cut and you can call it a day.
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Old 06-13-2018, 4:04 PM
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My vote is for the VP9. It fits my hand, points and shoots well.
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Old 06-13-2018, 5:35 PM
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For home defence, you can not go wrong with any of the three you listed.

As far as the Glock goes, I actually like the Gen 5 better than the Gen 3&4 because of the way the flared magazine well helps push my hand up on the grip and the smoother trigger of the box.

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Old 06-13-2018, 5:36 PM
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+5 for the VP9 as well, then again to each there own!
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Old 06-13-2018, 5:59 PM
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I own both the VP9 and the 2.0.

Out of the box, the VP9 is the best.

I wasn't happy with my M&P until after I put an apex trigger shoe in ($39 on ebay.)
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Old 06-13-2018, 6:04 PM
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All good ....
But you should also consider the Walther PPQ
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Old 06-13-2018, 7:40 PM
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Would like to re-phrase the question on why the VP9, or the MP2 or the Glock is NOT suitable for duty/HD?

I would believe that it's mostly on preference - fit with the shooter's hands, grip angle, recoil management (less the pistol, more the shooter), price/cost (pistols used in HD get 'confiscated' as evidence), etc.

That sai, regarding trigger upgrades for pistols to be used as carry/defense/duty, etc. please read this opinion piece from Massad Ayoob: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6f7u21u3bo...ggers.pdf?dl=0

Cheers!!!


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Old 06-13-2018, 9:22 PM
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I will add that those three are so similar in function that any of the three will serve you adequately. Breaking it down any further will simply interject too much opinion and individual preference.
These forms of questions are too difficult to help someone choose. Other elements play a role as in cost to purchase, your hand size, ability, costs to upgrade and popularity of aftermarket options. Not that you need to be able to answer all those questions.
They are all from reputable manufactures and each has its legions of fans.

As for the ayoob article. He responded on this forum some time ago. That was a very interesting read for a number of reasons.
It’s interesting the examples he cites. Mostly revolvers. Important to understand at the time those were carried what was the quality or depth of firearms training for LE? I know today it is entirely different for most agencies. Much better and more of it.
What was the frequency of officer involved shootings either intentionally or unintentionally compared to now and say 20 years ago? Do you have just as many or more now?
What about the number of shootings that injured civilians as a by product of the encounter or created other costs that could be contributed to inaccuracy?
Where are the civilian use of firearms in lawful self defense examples where they used modified firearms? How many civilians use firearms for lawful self defense vs LE?

I would suggest his opinion on this topic is the minority of those respected in firearms training and sheer experience. Too many other factors affect the outcome of using deadly force as to make what mods you do on your defensive firearm a non issue.
Mindset is the free element that absolutely makes the biggest difference bar none.

Just my opinion.

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  #21  
Old 06-14-2018, 6:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt P View Post
I will add that those three are so similar in function that any of the three will serve you adequately. Breaking it down any further will simply interject too much opinion and individual preference.
These forms of questions are too difficult to help someone choose. Other elements play a role as in cost to purchase, your hand size, ability, costs to upgrade and popularity of aftermarket options. Not that you need to be able to answer all those questions.
They are all from reputable manufactures and each has its legions of fans.
Articulately explained! This is what I was driving at - it's a moot question.

That said, something that needs to be added (I missed it in my first response) was "training and familiarity come into play," as well.

I did a subjective/informal test - a friend of mine had set up some self-defense scenarios (shooting at a static paper target in a square indoor range is neither a self-defense scenario NOR sufficient practice for such). I would have to use three of my favorite pistols in stock configuration:
  • Glock 34 Gen 3. I use another G34 Gen 3 for Production/Stock matches - only modifications were competition sights and a polished/lightened trigger.
  • Springfield Armory 1911 MCO. Well, just because it is a 1911.
  • H&K USP Expert 45

What we found is very interesting. I am fastest in terms of pairs/splits and reloads with my G34. Obviously...

Though I could match draw to first shot with a 1911, my pairs were slightly slower (maybe I need more work on recoil management with a 45ACP). And the groups at 7-yards is NOT as tight as the Glock. What is worst is that my reload to shot was at least 0.5-secs slower than a Glock.

The H&K is a versatile (due to the DA/SA, cocked and locked, etc.) and a very accurate pistol. However, even if I could manage fast pairs and tight groups within the A-zone at 7-yards; my draw to first shot was the slowest! I'd obviously point this to the grip angle and the DA trigger.

Hhhhhmmm... If someone were to watch - they may see no or very minimal difference. But, in a life-or-death SD/HD situation - you need every tenth-of-a-section you can get!

I bet, if I spend as much time with my 1911 and/or H&K as much as a Glock - I think I could improve my performance.

Again, it goes back to being more of a preference and training on how to use a particular firearm.


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I would suggest his opinion on this topic is the minority of those respected in firearms training and sheer experience. Too many other factors affect the outcome of using deadly force as to make what mods you do on your defensive firearm a non issue.
I prefer NOT to speak in absolutes.

Cheers!!!

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Old 06-14-2018, 7:00 AM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
, price/cost (pistols used in HD get 'confiscated' as evidence)
Dont EVER choose a gun you expect may be used to defend your life ( or someone else's) on price because you expect to loose it after its use. What ever its price, it was without doubt THE BEST $$$ YOU EVER SPENT!!





I own VP9 and Glock 19 gen 3. They ar both excellent handguns and I think its a matter of personal preference. Both will get the job done well in the hands of a well trained user.

I think the VP9 is the superior gun for me given the far superior ergonomics. I prefer the paddle release, particularly in competition because it eliminates the need to break the weld of the strong hand from the tang of the gun. Additionally the sights are steel and far better and the VP9 has a ligltly longer sight radius.

Despite my preference for the VP9, when choosing a gun that is going to sit in a nightstand drawer on home defense duty that hopefully you will never have to use, I would recommend the G19 gen 3 with night sights. Again.. as stated above.. why spend the $$ for a gen 4/5 when the gun will be sitting on "standby" and not a carry gun. I have no doubt a new / well maintained G19 will go bang when you need it to.. and at HD distances, the ergonomic benefits of the VP9 dont really come into play and therefore not worth the extra $.

In closing, I would suggest the OP get a Gen 3 Gock 19 with night sights and spend the extra $$$ on a CQB / structure clearing / low light class (take your pick) from a legitimate tactical school.
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Old 06-14-2018, 7:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Would like to re-phrase the question on why the VP9, or the MP2 or the Glock is NOT suitable for duty/HD?

I would believe that it's mostly on preference - fit with the shooter's hands, grip angle, recoil management (less the pistol, more the shooter), price/cost (pistols used in HD get 'confiscated' as evidence), etc.

That sai, regarding trigger upgrades for pistols to be used as carry/defense/duty, etc. please read this opinion piece from Massad Ayoob: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6f7u21u3bo...ggers.pdf?dl=0

Cheers!!!


_
His opinion (on this particular issue) is bunk based on an inapplicable case. That case involved a hair trigger on a cocked revolver, and an accidental shooting, or at least an alleged accidental shooting.

If you shoot someone intentionally, particularly if you shoot them more than once, such a scenario is not a viable argument for a prosecutor or civil attorney to make. A better trigger is safer, and ensures that the bullets impact where you want them to, and any attorney can present evidence and argument to support this.
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Old 06-14-2018, 4:54 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
Dont EVER choose a gun you expect may be used to defend your life ( or someone else's) on price because you expect to loose it after its use. What ever its price, it was without doubt THE BEST $$$ YOU EVER SPENT!!
Well, based on the posts in this thread (including yours), I guess not everyone thinks like you. Like I have said, it's all about preference. And the reality is - price/cost is always a GIVEN, in one form or another.

Oh well... There may be a few here that may have a Les Baer Presentation Grade 1911 as their bedside pistol.


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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
His opinion (on this particular issue) is bunk based on an inapplicable case. That case involved a hair trigger on a cocked revolver, and an accidental shooting, or at least an alleged accidental shooting.
Have you read the entire article? Or just the first few paragraphs?

It is less the case but more on the arguments that a DA can potentially bear on you.

Quote:
If you shoot someone intentionally, particularly if you shoot them more than once, such a scenario is not a viable argument for a prosecutor or civil attorney to make. A better trigger is safer, and ensures that the bullets impact where you want them to, and any attorney can present evidence and argument to support this.
Unless you are a lawyer knowledgeable in gun laws, or on occasions, called as an expert witness in cases - I will reserve judgment and defer to those who are...

That said, I prefer that correct regular training and practice better ensures that the bullets impact where you want them to...

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Old 06-14-2018, 5:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post
Well, based on the posts in this thread (including yours), I guess not everyone thinks like you. Like I have said, it's all about preference. And the reality is - price/cost is always a GIVEN, in one form or another.

Oh well... There may be a few here that may have a Les Baer Presentation Grade 1911 as their bedside pistol.




Have you read the entire article? Or just the first few paragraphs?

It is less the case but more on the arguments that a DA can potentially bear on you.



Unless you are a lawyer knowledgeable in gun laws, or on occasions, called as an expert witness in cases - I will reserve judgment and defer to those who are...

That said, I prefer that correct regular training and practice better ensures that the bullets impact where you want them to...

_
I AM a lawyer. And yes, I've read that article, AND the case he relies on. As I said, any lawyer worth his salt can make the case that a better trigger ensures accuracy. I do this for a living. Sure, the DA "can" make whatever argument he wants. Do you load ball ammo because he *might* claim your hollow points mean you're bloodthirsty? How about the fact that you have a ccw? He can argue whatever he wants. That doesn't convert modifications where you are more confident of accuracy into a liability.

You get a lawyer, too, and he will explain the rationale behind sensible modifications.
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Old 06-14-2018, 5:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
I AM a lawyer. And yes, I've read that article, AND the case he relies on. As I said, any lawyer worth his salt can make the case that a better trigger ensures accuracy. I do this for a living. Sure, the DA "can" make whatever argument he wants. Do you load ball ammo because he *might* claim your hollow points mean you're bloodthirsty? How about the fact that you have a ccw? He can argue whatever he wants. That doesn't convert modifications where you are more confident of accuracy into a liability.

You get a lawyer, too, and he will explain the rationale behind sensible modifications.
Then I take what I said back... You can't really be sure out here in the internet. Lots of armchair experts.

That said, would be good to have someone like you in an address book for those just in case moments.

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Old 06-14-2018, 5:37 PM
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No. No clear cut winner. All are high quality choices. Much depends on personal preference.

For me, I'm just not a Glock guy...and care even less for HK's. Again...all good guns, I just don't care for them. I do, however, love me some M&P's. So it's an easy choice for me.

I will say that I think the M&P 2.0 has the best factory trigger out of the box for all the polymer guns. Again, this is a pretty subjective opinion. It is, however, a decent trigger...although some people don't care for the hinged break in the trigger. I get that.

Now...if you're willing to spend a little money on upgrades for the M&P...an Apex flat faced trigger with the forward set sear is a thing a beauty. It's a marked improvement over the 1.0 guns and a decent step up for the 2.0 guns. YMMV here of course. Not everybody likes flat triggers, for example, but I'm a huge fan.

Good luck! And post pictures when you've decided.
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Old 06-14-2018, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Gregchico View Post
For home defence, you can not go wrong with any of the three you listed.

As far as the Glock goes, I actually like the Gen 5 better than the Gen 3&4 because of the way the flared magazine well helps push my hand up on the grip and the smoother trigger of the box.

I have the same carpet!

That's about as useful a comment as my actual opinion would be on these three. Bottom line is, everyone's preference is different. For these three fairly similar guns, it all boils down to YOUR personal preference, which no one can really tell except yourself. Rent them at the range or find a shooting buddy who has them to try before you buy. Worst/best case scenario, buy all three!

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Old 06-14-2018, 5:53 PM
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Originally Posted by rodralig View Post

That sai, regarding trigger upgrades for pistols to be used as carry/defense/duty, etc. please read this opinion piece from Massad Ayoob: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6f7u21u3bo...ggers.pdf?dl=0

Cheers!!!


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The Massad article gets referenced a fair amount. However, it is fairly difficult to actually find a meaningful number of cases where somebody went to jail because of a trigger job in an otherwise good shoot. I don't mean a ND situation. And I'm sure you can find one case. But it's pretty darn rare.

Moreover...and this is just my philosophy...my first priority is to stay alive so that I can get to trial (judged by 12 and all that). To that end, I will absolutely take every REASONABLE advantage I can to improve my chances of survival up to and including a trigger job (and assuming it isn't against my IA's policies). I'm not talking about dropping a 2 lb trigger into a carry gun. I did say "reasonable." But a 4-5 lb trigger...yup...you bet.

And if some attorney wants to try and come after me for that, let him. My attorney will counter with the fact that my trigger weight is consistent with many factory pull weights such as Wilson Combat, just to name one example. And that an improved trigger helps improve accuracy to ensure that you're hitting your target and not sending rounds down range that could hurt or kill an innocent. And I'm perfectly fine with taking my chances with the jury. If I was in defense of my life and justified using deadly force, a trigger job isn't going to counter that and send me to jail. YMMV.
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  #30  
Old 06-14-2018, 6:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Litespeeds View Post
VP9 for the win.
Ditto.
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Old 06-14-2018, 6:32 PM
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...That sai, regarding trigger upgrades for pistols to be used as carry/defense/duty, etc. please read this opinion piece from Massad Ayoob: https://www.dropbox.com/s/6f7u21u3bo...ggers.pdf?dl=0
One might get burned on trigger upgrades on an accidental discharge that causes one to shoot someone.

However, I don't think there is any case to be made for trigger upgrades when someone is shot on purpose. It is either a justifiable homicide or not. How efficiently one shoots the other person is not going to come into the equation. Now, in SF or Marin County the DA might try to make a case that the person was looking to shoot someone hence the mods but I am sure a competent attorney can counter that argument.

On a good shoot even an over zealous DA can fail.
http://www.marinij.com/government-an...-shooting-case
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Old 06-15-2018, 10:43 AM
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I vote for the VP9 or VP9sk because I shoot them better than my Glock 17 and 19. The VPs have amazing triggers right out of the box. I retired the Glock 19 and now carry the VP9sk everyday.
I also really like the Walther PPQ series for their triggers!
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