New CA CCW certification - El Dorado

[ABR]

Just got this email from instructor Arne Digerud (NV) re: CA certification. CA has raised the bar qualifying range performance/ability. FYI...



Hi Everyone,

This email is specifically for California Residents regarding new qualification requirements for their CALFORNIA CCW PERMIT. Qualifying for your Nevada non-resident permit is still as simple and easy as always.

I got an email from the El Dorado County Sheriff's Office that outlines new requirements effective January 1 of this year. These changes will require that I revamp my classes to accommodate you when you take the class for your California permit.

As a result, I WILL NOT BE ABLE TO QUALIFY ANY CALIFORNIA RENEWALS OR FIRST TIME CALIFORNIA PERMIT APPLICANTS IN NEXT WEEK'S CLASS. I was not going to do a class in February, but if you need to renew your California permit soon I will do a February class for California residents.

I have attached the new CA penal code and the document explaining how you must qualify from EDSO. Check them out so you understand what we are doing. Here is the short version...

You will now have to fulfill the following requirements:

YOU MUST ACTUALLY QUALIFY WITH EVERY GUN YOU WANT ON YOUR PERMIT. No exceptions. Adding a gun will require that you qualify with it. This will be time consuming on the range, and if you have more than 3 guns, it will also incur additional fees for the time involved.

YOU MUST QUALIFY AT LONGER DISTANCES. Each gun will have to be shot from 5, 10 and15 yards. That will be twice the distance you are used to at the longest yardage.

YOU WILL HAVE A MANDATORY RELOAD AT EACH DISTANCE.

YOU MUST DRAW FROM THE HOLSTER AT EACH DISTANCE. This is a radical departure from our usual qualification, and this will NOW NECESSITATE SPECIFIC HOLSTER REQUIREMENTS that I will advise you of when I get the details worked out for February's class.

YOU WILL HAVE TIME LIMITS TO DRAW AND SHOOT 10 ROUNDS (WITH A MANDATORY RELOAD) AT EACH DISTANCE. The time limits are: 5 yards, 12 seconds; 10 yards, 15 seconds; 15 yards, 18 seconds.

SCORING WILL BE MORE RESTRICTIVE THAN IN THE PAST. Go on line and look up the image of a B-27 qualification target. This is the new qualification target for EDSO It is probably the one you shot at your last class with me. All hits are scored anywhere within the outer scoring ring (the 7 ring). You must get 24 out of 30 shots into the scoring ring area.

Last point: DON'T PANIC!!

My immediate plan is to have all renewal classes for both CA and NV to be a 4 hour range day. We can discuss the "discussion" elements of the class during breaks. That means the renewal class will now be a 4 hour basic skills class. Most of you never get a chance to go over the basic skills in a structured teaching environment anyway, so I think this will take your abilities to a new level. At the end of the class we will shoot the CA qualification using the skills you just spent 4 hours perfecting. I know some of you went pale when you read the above requirements, but you can all do this. Now some may ask, "What about my North American Arms single action .22 mini revolver?" I understand the allure of a small gun you can almost hide in a watchband, but California may have made it impossible to carry one legally. If you can shoot 5, reload, and shoot 5 more in 12 seconds, then you are good to go. Realistically I don't think that will happen for you. Or me, or anyone else, but if you are married to the little revolver, you have your work cut out for you. For regular revolver shooters, you will want to become intimately acquainted with speed loaders if you aren't already.

Going to a Range Day Renewal class will cost more. This is a lot more work for me so I have to charge more. I will have to consider this a bit, but I won't hurt anybody with the new fees.

California is going to keep putting more burdens on gun owners, and especially CCW Permit holders. This may be better for you as it will give me an opportunity to spend more range time with you working on the basic skills that you want to be subconscious when your are handling and shooting a gun.

So, think over what you have been given in this email. Send me your feedback, either by email or feel free to call me.

Stay safe,
Arne

(775) 782-0312 - Home
(775) 781-2763 - Cell

[SkyHawk]

I don't think all of those are CA law. I know that qualify with each gun is new law. Most of those look specific to El Dorado county though.

For the record, here is the new law.

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/f...5.&lawCode=PEN

(a) For new license applicants, the course of training for issuance of a license under Section 26150 or 26155 may be any course acceptable to the licensing authority that meets all of the following criteria:

(1) The course shall be no less than eight hours, but shall not be required to exceed 16 hours in length.

(2) The course shall include instruction on firearm safety, firearm handling, shooting technique, and laws regarding the permissible use of a firearm.

(3) The course shall include live-fire shooting exercises on a firing range and shall include a demonstration by the applicant of safe handling of, and shooting proficiency with, each firearm that the applicant is applying to be licensed to carry.

(b) A licensing authority shall establish, and make available to the public, the standards it uses when issuing licenses with regards to the required live-fire shooting exercises, including, but not limited to, a minimum number of rounds to be fired and minimum passing scores from specified firing distances.

(c) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), the licensing authority may require a community college course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, up to a maximum of 24 hours, but only if required uniformly of all license applicants without exception.

(d) For license renewal applicants, the course of training may be any course acceptable to the licensing authority, shall be no less than four hours, and shall satisfy the requirements of paragraphs (2) and (3) of subdivision (a). No course of training shall be required for any person certified by the licensing authority as a trainer for purposes of this section, in order for that person to renew a license issued pursuant to this article.

(e) The applicant shall not be required to pay for any training courses prior to the determination of good cause being made pursuant to Section 26202.

Major new changes are qualify with each gun and 8 hour minimum initial course, those are the only changes that directly apply to applicants.



Compare that to the old law:
https://web.archive.org/web/20180920...5.&lawCode=PEN

(a) For new license applicants, the course of training for issuance of a license under Section 26150 or 26155 may be any course acceptable to the licensing authority, shall not exceed 16 hours, and shall include instruction on at least firearm safety and the law regarding the permissible use of a firearm.

(b) Notwithstanding subdivision (a), the licensing authority may require a community college course certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training, up to a maximum of 24 hours, but only if required uniformly of all license applicants without exception.

(c) For license renewal applicants, the course of training may be any course acceptable to the licensing authority, shall be no less than four hours, and shall include instruction on at least firearm safety and the law regarding the permissible use of a firearm. No course of training shall be required for any person certified by the licensing authority as a trainer for purposes of this section, in order for that person to renew a license issued pursuant to this article.

(d) The applicant shall not be required to pay for any training courses prior to the determination of good cause being made pursuant to Section 2620

Now where this may be coming from in regards to Eldo County new qualification requirements, is the new law that IAs must make publicly available their qualification standards. Given that they now must do this, some IAs may be looking to beef up their qual standards.

[broadside]

Sounds like EDSO has updated their requirements for minimum training. The only you have in your letter that is law the qualification for each firearm. The method of that is up to the IA

[CAL.BAR]

Yawn.. OC has had those requirements AND MORE since the start of the CCW program.

[tanks]

Originally Posted by CAL.BAR

Yawn.. OC has had those requirements AND MORE since the start of the CCW program.

Except for holster draw and reloads. Also, distances are closer, 3,5,7 yards and no time limit with 70% pass score. And only the first firearm has 72 rounds (24 per distance) any subsequent firearms are 20 rounds total at 5 and 7 yards (10 rounds per).


The EDSD requirements are much more stringent. The holster and reload requirement is there most likely so people do not qualify with their safe queens as they would incur extra costs on holsters and mag holders.

Also, the time limits mean revolver shooters are screwed (as mentioned by another poster) unless they invest in speed loaders.

[Librarian]

I've never understood the long distance shooting requirement as applied to snub-nosed revolvers. (I believe I have heard that some places Make Appropriate Allowances.)

Not being Jerry Miculek, 5 yards is about the farthest I'd want to shoot a snubbie.

There are some small semi-auto handguns that I think have nearly the same practical shooting distance as snub-nosed revolvers.

[tanks]

Originally Posted by Librarian

I've never understood the long distance shooting requirement as applied to snub-nosed revolvers...

Also, the way the laws are I have a feeling if one is engaging anyone at 15 yards they'll be most likely charged as an argument could be made that they could have avoided the confrontation. Unless the other party has already been shooting.

[SkyHawk]

What's next - must use drop leg holster while wearing PASGT helmet? Trick shots? Gun spinning?

[NorCalTodd]

These are the same qualifications I did a year and a half ago with my CCW instructor. I had to qualify with both guns on my permit. (class rule, not EDC rule). It wasn't too bad. I'll be sure to get some more range time in prior to my renewal later this year to stay sharp. Practicing reloading dry-fire really helped me a lot come qualification day. The people who struggled at the longer ranges were the ones who don't practice with their weapon and had to re-take the qualification multiple times to shrink their group sizes into the maximum allowable area. The folks who knew their guns reasonably well didn't have any trouble and most passed the test the first time.

[Humboldt Leatherneck]

There was a thread started last November about the upcoming changes in 2019 to state wide uniform training requirements for CCW Licensing.

https://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/...&highlight=ccw

So in the new set of rules and regulations for El Dorado County, what if your listed semi-auto pistol uses 7 or 8 round magazines? Do they allow for magazine changes, during the timed fire session?

Or as others asked what about using a revolver? Would speed loaders, or speed strips be allowed?

[Doheny]

Originally Posted by broadside

Sounds like EDSO has updated their requirements for minimum training. The only you have in your letter that is law the qualification for each firearm. The method of that is up to the IA

This.

Title should be New El Dorado CCW Certification (rather than CA.)

[ABR]

Update...

Hi Everyone,

I have a lot of demand for a class right away, so I was able to book the classroom for next weekend, January 25 & 26.

For those of you in California this may be a good time to renew or get your first time class done. I got an email from the El Dorado Sheriff. Due to a lot of feedback from instructors he has decided to re-think the recent qualification changes. As a result, he as suspended the new rules and any classes revert back to the old rules until he determines what changes he needs to make. It is unknown what those changes might be, or when he will institute new rules, so getting through the qualification now is going to make things much easier for you. If you want your first time permit in CA or need to renew in the next couple of months, I would do it next week if you can.

Class Information sheet is attached. I will update you as I have more.

Arne

[SkyHawk]

Look at this, Sac County also enforcing new qualification standards because of the new disclosure law

https://www.sacsheriff.com/Pages/Org...COMPLIANCE.pdf

[QuarterBoreGunner]

Santa Clara SO's has had a similar range qual requirement forever.
It's still relatively easy to pass... except for that one guy in every qual session that insists on using his Ruger Blackhawk single action. Screw that guy. Your reloads are sad.

[SkyHawk]

12 rounds in 25 seconds or even 6 rounds in 10 seconds is going to be pretty interesting for the lady or gent with a 5 shot revolver. And some of the shoots require 6 in a load. I don't know how or if they make exceptions for 5 shot wheel guns. These standards seemed geared to duty size revolvers.

And what if you are handicapped, say confined to a wheelchair - how do you shoot a standing position? Or is it just no self-defense for you?

It just seems like they are shoving LE training requirements onto grandma and grandpa. I don't get it. At some point, due to age or arthritis - when we are at our weakest in life to defend ourselves by hand or by flight or pass these quals, eventually many of us will fail these shoots.

It seems the Sheriffs just phoned it in with these standards - put almost no thought into the reality of it.

[blubullett]

The issuing agency is who decides on course of fire but the state is now requiring the hours and qualifying with each gun. Stanislaus has a timed course of fire that even timed was easy as can be. Our instructor had us do it in Dec. so he could see how it would be in class this year. We also require shooting one handed with each hand, four shots in 5 seconds. But our round count was much lower. No misses allowed though or you fail.

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by ABR

Update...

Hi Everyone,

I have a lot of demand for a class right away, so I was able to book the classroom for next weekend, January 25 & 26.

For those of you in California this may be a good time to renew or get your first time class done. I got an email from the El Dorado Sheriff. Due to a lot of feedback from instructors he has decided to re-think the recent qualification changes. As a result, he as suspended the new rules and any classes revert back to the old rules until he determines what changes he needs to make. It is unknown what those changes might be, or when he will institute new rules, so getting through the qualification now is going to make things much easier for you. If you want your first time permit in CA or need to renew in the next couple of months, I would do it next week if you can.

Class Information sheet is attached. I will update you as I have more.

Arne

I was talking to some instructors this week. The failure rate in Eldo skyrocketed, and the Sheriff got a bunch of heat. New standards will be forthcoming.

[SkyHawk]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

I was talking to some instructors this week. The failure rate in Eldo skyrocketed, and the Sheriff got a bunch of heat. New standards will be forthcoming.

Shocker

Thanks for the update, will stay tuned for more...

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

Look at this, Sac County also enforcing new qualification standards because of the new disclosure law.

https://www.sacsheriff.com/Pages/Org...COMPLIANCE.pdf

The Sac County requirements are from state BSIS standards for armed guards. And, they are very old and were devised when S&W M-10 .38 revolvers were the standard side arm. But we’ve expected this since September.

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

12 rounds in 25 seconds or even 6 rounds in 10 seconds is going to be pretty interesting for the lady or gent with a 5 shot revolver. And some of the shoots require 6 in a load. I don't know how or if they make exceptions for 5 shot wheel guns. These standards seemed geared to duty size revolvers.

I’m 67 and qualified with a 5-shot snubby on the BSIS CoF. The instructors said I could run 5/5 loads, but I wanted to see if the 5/5/2 loading would work. It does, but you have to know how to use a wheel gun and you have to understand that there is plenty of time. (And, you have to dump the brass on the floor and collect it later.)

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

And what if you are handicapped, say confined to a wheelchair - how do you shoot a standing position? Or is it just no self-defense for you?

For Sacramento, you read the footnote on page 1. “As permitted, ADA accommodations can still be made at the discretion of the Instructor.”

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

It just seems like they are shoving LE Rent-a-cop training requirements onto grandma and grandpa.

FIFY.. We won’t see LEO standards (PC 832, etc.) because then we will be as qualified as cops....so, off-roster, LCMs and school yards should be available to us.

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

I don't get it. At some point, due to age or arthritis - when we are at our weakest in life to defend ourselves by hand or by flight, eventually all of us will fail these shoots.

Again, footnote on page 1.

Originally Posted by SkyHawk

It seems the Sheriffs just phoned it in with these standards - put almost no thought into the reality of it.

I think Sheriff Jones understands the political nature of Sacramento and the heat he has taken for CCW issuance, and opted to take an approved state-sanctioned standard and applied it. I suspect he put a lot of thought into that decision.

What’s going to be really interesting once all of the IAs have published their CoFs, and the antis want to know why some are more arduous than others. Legislative “stabilization” of a state-wide standard is sure to follow. (And, no progressive is going to use an NRA or LEO standard for commoners.)

[bob.dakeelstripe]

Before it was up to the instructor to set the qualification is

My guy used IDPA targets we shot a like 2 yrds 5 yards and 7 yards if total of 50 rounds.

He had the same COF for everyone reguardles of county. The difference was the lecture time and Sac required 8hrs of trigger time.

Now every county has a different standard So a person from Sac Eldo and Placer can't be on the same COF the instructor has to do them separate.


The new cof is actually a blast. And if my .380 sig can hit in the 8-9 range so should your snubbie at 15 yards. The time thing is a mind game that will mess you up don't think there's plenty of time.

After shooting at the15yard the 5 yard line its pretty much a ammo dump on the 10 ring. Poor. Pooooorr 10 ring

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

[Dvrjon]

Originally Posted by bob.dakeelstripe

The difference was the lecture time and Sac required 8hrs of trigger time.

Bob, how did you come up with, “Sac required 8 hrs of trigger time”?

[bob.dakeelstripe]

Originally Posted by Dvrjon

Bob, how did you come up with, “Sac required 8 hrs of trigger time”?

16 hrs initial course 8 hrs lecture d ay one 8 hours range time day two. That's how we for filled the 16 hrs.

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[tomrkba]

How many guns can be on the permit? I have about 20 or so that I keep in the pool. What’s the round count per test?

Do I have to qualify with each of three Glock 19’s and 26’s or just one of each?