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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 11-07-2019, 8:25 AM
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Default California Awash In Guns - 1,600 Firearms Seized This Year In Eastern District

From yesterday's Sacramento Bee... California ‘awash in guns,’ feds say as they target illegal firearms and violent crime

Quote:
...This year alone, Scott said, 1,600 firearms have been seized in numerous cases in the Eastern District of California, which stretches from the Oregon state line to south of Bakersfield.

The seizures come as part of the Justice Department’s Project Safe Neighborhoods effort, in which local communities’ law enforcement officers are supplemented with federal resources in a bid to reduce violent crime...

“California has the most stringent gun laws in the country, but this state is awash in guns.”

One of the greatest concerns is the increasing number of privately made weapons that do not carry serial numbers and are sold illegally, said Jennifer Cicolani, the assistant agent in charge of the San Francisco division of the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives...
Bear in mind that the Eastern District of California is where Trump has an opportunity in terms of judicial appointments, if he'll take it. That district is where: "Each of the court’s six district judges handles roughly 900 cases at any given time." For reference...

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  #2  
Old 11-07-2019, 8:45 AM
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Just reading the excerpt, we’ve seen this trick before. Trying to correlate a large number with ghost guns. Group the details behind each of the 1600 and then we’ll talk.
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Old 11-07-2019, 8:58 AM
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If you squeeze a balloon in your hand it pops out between your fingers. That's what gun laws here do. Where there's a will, there's a way.
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Old 11-07-2019, 9:19 AM
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Some random thoughts:

So in an area with a population of over 5 million people, with a large gang population, they seized 1500 guns. Wow, that's impressive. It is so awash with guns there is 0.0003 guns per person in the region (I am guessing it's actually less, since the population figures are based on the 2010 census). What would inundated look like?

Also, what a surprise, the effort is targeting gang members, especially those that want the cool glock auto sear. Haven't I read that most gun homicides link back to existing felons, gang members, or the drug business? But this should not be possible with all of our laws.

Interesting, they lead with the story of a felony probation search that led to several illegally owned guns. But the Oakland mayor just banned the use of probation searches because they are unfair to our felon citizens. I am confused.

Another side point, they are going with federal prosecutions. Could this be due to California trying to decriminalize everything but legal firearms ownership? Five years ago, the average person convicted of illegal possession of a firearm served 13 months in a California state prison. With all of our prison and criminal justice reforms, I am sure that average is down significantly. But the story hinted at federal sentences being longer, possibly twice as long. So what does this say about the state criminal justice system?

“California has the most stringent gun laws in the country ..." but apparently all this crime was going on without California doing anything about it, given that as soon as the feds got involved arrests grew by 31%. This tells me, the crime was on going but nothing was being done.

And yes, without providing any type of numbers on ghost guns seized, they just remain ghost stories. If the state can't present basic statistics on a crucial problem, we have to assume it's not really important after all. Maybe this should be a point in some of our lawsuits - how can the state claim an important public issue with no statistics being kept? Answer me this.
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  #5  
Old 11-07-2019, 9:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigdog68 View Post
...And yes, without providing any type of numbers on ghost guns seized, they just remain ghost stories. If the state can't present basic statistics on a crucial problem, we have to assume it's not really important after all. Maybe this should be a point in some of our lawsuits - how can the state claim an important public issue with no statistics being kept? Answer me this.
But... but...

Quote:
One in three guns seized in California is homemade and has no serial number, according to federal firearms officials. Legally, this makes them all but invisible and extremely hard to track; hence the expression "ghost gun."
Of course, there is the unassailable...

Quote:
...An investigation by The Trace in partnership with NBC Bay Area, NBC San Diego, and NBC Los Angeles found that law enforcement agencies across California are recovering record numbers of ghost guns. According to the ATF, 30 percent of all guns now recovered by agents in the state are unserialized. And without a serial number, they cannot be traced in criminal investigations.

California police departments that track ghost gun recoveries are seeing a similar trend...
Then again...

Quote:
...The Trace and NBC requested ghost gun seizure data from more than a dozen law enforcement agencies across California. Most departments, including Los Angeles and Chula Vista, said they do not track recoveries of unserialized weapons at all. The departments that do keep tabs on unserialized weapons reported marked increases. In Oceanside, police recovered 19 ghost guns in 2018, a 280 percent increase over the previous year...

Tracking ghost guns isn’t just a problem at the local level. Congressional and ATF sources told The Trace and NBC that the bureau does not document recoveries on a national scale. Spokespeople for ATF field divisions in Los Angeles and Sacramento said that approximately 30 percent of all recoveries made by agents in many communities are un-serialized weapons. But the ATF can’t provide specific data beyond that...
So... (Uh)... 1 in 3 recovered... (Umm)... Nearly 1 in 3... (Ahem)... One of the 'partners' cited for data collection said they couldn't get data as most police agencies don't keep that kind of information; but, those that do claim a significant increase, recovering... (Cough)... 19 such firearms in a single year.

What was your point again? Numbers are being provided, aren't they?
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  #6  
Old 11-07-2019, 10:51 AM
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Have these guys figured out what is going on in the urban areas...rather than the Eastern areas?

All these embellished terms and cherry picked numbers with claims of grand huge unabated problems. Then they talk about 20-30 guns...with no serial numbers. I wonder how many had numbers that were obliterated...?
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
Spokespeople for ATF field divisions in Los Angeles and Sacramento said that approximately 30 percent of all recoveries made by agents in many communities are un-serialized weapons. But the ATF can’t provide specific data beyond that...
It's not like the ATF provided any data- somewhere around 30% of recoveries in some communities were un-serialized - but this might include serial numbers obliterated

Funny thing, though, Alameda DA just a few months ago published a report that something like 90% of seized weapons were not registered to the people they seized them from.

But I don't recall them stating that the serial number was a problem, rather the state's database of firearms was poorly designed so they can't track if a weapon was stolen or not. I would have thought ghost guns would have been a big topic in the report if it was such a dire crisis.
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Old 11-07-2019, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tarmy View Post
Have these guys figured out what is going on in the urban areas...rather than the Eastern areas?

All these embellished terms and cherry picked numbers with claims of grand huge unabated problems. Then they talk about 20-30 guns...with no serial numbers. I wonder how many had numbers that were obliterated...?

Well this was the problem the DOJ had in the magazine case and why we ended up with a week to buy magazines. Their evidence is non existent - it's a desire, wish, bad dream, make believe, myth, invisible friend
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  #9  
Old 11-07-2019, 11:42 AM
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Most those arrests are round ups of known felons and gang members who, incidentally, had firearms found when the warrant was served.

Very misleading story with a sensational headline of California being "Awash with Guns".
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  #10  
Old 11-07-2019, 5:33 PM
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It's all those "low risk" parolees , gots to protect theyselves against all them law abiding AK/AR toting citizens...no worries, Gruesome will pass a law making it OK so theys stay safe and warm with their Tec9's and Macs...

Given the consistency of the above "figgers", I'm guessing they are almost as "accurate" as the school project that over-estimated plastic straws by a factor of 2-300%. We know how THAT turned out, now we're all plastic straw toting criminals....

I think they don't realize how many law abiding legal gun owners there are now, due to the insane policies of this state.
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  #11  
Old 11-07-2019, 5:56 PM
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I suggest CA get a gunbroker account and sell them to help lower our taxes. No serial number is a non starter until the feds change the laws. They miss that all of these guns were seized from persons whose 2A rights have been blocked due to criminal activity.
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Old 11-08-2019, 8:07 AM
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Here's the official 'statement' made from which 'ghost guns' was spun into the article...

U.S. Attorney McGregor W. Scott Announces Progress in Making Our Communities Safer Through Project Safe Neighborhoods
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Old 11-08-2019, 6:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
Here's the official 'statement' made from which 'ghost guns' was spun into the article...

U.S. Attorney McGregor W. Scott Announces Progress in Making Our Communities Safer Through Project Safe Neighborhoods
Ok, I read it twice, what did I miss?
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Old 11-08-2019, 6:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post

So... (Uh)... 1 in 3 recovered... (Umm)... Nearly 1 in 3... (Ahem)... One of the 'partners' cited for data collection said they couldn't get data as most police agencies don't keep that kind of information; but, those that do claim a significant increase, recovering... (Cough)... 19 such firearms in a single year.

What was your point again? Numbers are being provided, aren't they?
I think we should be more critical of the articles, or at least more questioning. As written they encourage the reader to conclude that ALL unserialized firearms seized are "ghost guns". However that is not explicitly stated.

Yes, it may be true that "record number" of ghost guns are being recovered. If last year it was 10 and this year it's 11 - that's a record. But it doesn't follow that because "30% of guns recovered" are unserialized that those guns are ghost guns. Guns with their serial numbers obliterated are "unserialized" too. nd given the deliberate dishonesty of the media when reporting such things, it's applicable to apply two well known legal axioms to this matter. First, that having been found to lie on one point we may reasonably presume they are lying about all others. And that an ambiguity may be construed against the entity which created the document.
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Old 11-08-2019, 6:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia
Here's the official 'statement' made from which 'ghost guns' was spun into the article...
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajb78 View Post
Ok, I read it twice, what did I miss?
What did the official release say about 'ghost guns' beyond - “Our focus remains stemming the tide of illegal firearms flowing into our communities and prosecuting those who manufacture, distribute, and possess those weapons." - versus how much focus was put on them in the article?
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Old 11-08-2019, 7:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
I think we should be more critical of the articles, or at least more questioning. As written they encourage the reader to conclude that ALL unserialized firearms seized are "ghost guns". However that is not explicitly stated...
Exactly.

That's why I 'linked' the stories where they went from 1 in 3 to nearly 1 in 3 to the data isn't widely available or kept, but based on the very few we found who do keep it we extrapolate to support an agenda to here's an actual, unimpressive number... Which is why the face palm...
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Old 11-08-2019, 9:01 PM
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the whole unserialized/ghost gun argument is also a red herring. They claim it prevents them from tracing firearms. But many states have no records of private sales, so even where all firearms are serialized, the same problem exists. They also admit most guns the recover even where they have serials aren't "registered" to the person they get it from. Being unserialized guns is not actually relevant to anything.
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Old 11-08-2019, 9:22 PM
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Misleading thread title. CA is awash in criminals.
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Old 11-08-2019, 10:44 PM
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california is failing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and gang bangers. The illegal guns in the hands of criminals and gangs are increasing a lot faster than DOJ can keep up with so they need to create a panic with these articles to allow them to pass even tougher laws on law biding citizens. DOJ cannot do it's job and it is trying to distract attention from their failure. It won't be until a large number of non gun owning citizens are killed in a year's time by criminals and gang bangers that the public is going to wake up and realize that you and I are not the problem and never have been.It is DOJ, the politicians, the governor, and the criminals with guns that never went through any system.
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Old 11-09-2019, 12:30 AM
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BOO!

Oh, Jeezuz, did that ever fookin scare me! Must be one a them "ghost guns". I wonder if its name is Casper or Beetlejuice? And I thought the Haunted Mansion ride at Disneyland was spooky.....ain't got nuthin on them "ghost guns"!


There, now that my pulse is lowering back to normal and I've put on a dry pair of man panties from that "ghost gun" sneakin up on me like that, lets take a closer look at it.

Aw, Hell. That ain't no child-killer AR-47 or AK-15 with one of them mass murdering high-capacity clips and no serial number.


That's just one of them old shotguns or .22 rifles from years and years and years ago, before they was required to have cereal numbers on them.

I wonder how many more of those there "ghost guns" with no serial number on them is just some old beat-up, broken-down, cheap single-shot shotgun or .22 rifle with no serial number.
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Old 11-09-2019, 7:39 AM
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I have heard M. Scott be interviewed on a few occasions. I'm pretty confident that this article seriously mischarecterizes his view on the "gun problem" in the Eastern District. He seems to offer DAs a way to prosecute bad guys under federal laws that are more aimed at, you know, punishing criminals...
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  #22  
Old 11-09-2019, 8:35 AM
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Gee they seized that many guns? How many people live here? Do the math.
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Old 11-09-2019, 1:49 PM
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but komifornia has gun laws! maybe more gun laws. next new law, "ban the word guns" maybe that will stop criminal from getting guns.
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Old 11-09-2019, 3:20 PM
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I was looking at the ATF trace data the other day.

https://www.atf.gov/file/137061/download

42488 total firearms recovered
27154 total where source state was identified

So that means 36% has no source state or no serial number. I'm sure not all of those are "ghost guns".

The other interesting data point is that %63 of the guns with serial numbers came from California. So the majority of guns which could be traced came from California.

We don't seem to have the iron pipeline problem.



It seems the number of "Ghost Guns" has dropped %10 from 2006. I guess they're getting better and better at tracing.

Last edited by abinsinia; 11-09-2019 at 5:48 PM.. Reason: Adding not traced graph
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Old 11-09-2019, 7:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus von W. View Post
cereal numbers
Yumm, my momma used to feed me those when I was in kindergarten.

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Old 11-10-2019, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abinsinia View Post
It seems the number of "Ghost Guns" has dropped %10 from 2006. I guess they're getting better and better at tracing.
Now, now... You're missing all the propaganda.

From The Los Angeles Times, 11/3/19... Opinion: California is flooded with ‘ghost’ guns, and a new state law won’t fix it (as opposed to "awash")...

Quote:
At the huge, carnival-like Orange County and Ventura County gun shows I attended recently, half a dozen vendors were offering imitation Glock semiautomatic pistol models — in pieces. The kits, which cost between $400 and $525, come in cardboard boxes containing steel barrels, plastic frames, and an array of small plastic and metal parts. Because the gun parts and kits are not finished guns, they mostly escape California’s gun control laws and, once assembled, have a feature that distinguishes them from manufactured weapons: no serial number. They are “ghost guns” — untraceable...

As of Jan. 1, 2019, I became legally obligated to call the state and get a serial number. But there is a loophole: Just as when I buy nuts and bolts at a hardware store, I can put down cash and walk out the door without anyone ever knowing my name. The Department of Justice has no idea I bought a parts kit...

It’s hard to know how many ghost guns exist, as sellers aren’t required to keep records. Mark Tallman at Colorado State University, who studies such weapons, estimates that based on the number of large-scale online sellers for the last few years, there are at least several hundred thousand ghost guns across the nation. The ATF regional branch in Glendale declined to say how many it has seized and the ATF national headquarters has not yet responded to a Freedom of Information Act request for the number of ghost gun seizures across California...
(bold/italics emphasis mine) We're seeing them all over California... 1 in 3 confiscated... But, ATF hasn't released any numbers???

Hey. We should be worried though. According to Kevin...


Last edited by TrappedinCalifornia; 11-10-2019 at 6:07 PM..
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Old 11-10-2019, 6:41 PM
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Hey. We should be worried though. According to Kevin...

Did he really say that? And the lawmakers are buying it? Impossible to believe.
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Old 11-10-2019, 7:26 PM
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Only a couple of thing wrong with that picture. First in my personal opinion is that Kevin De Leon has the distinct ability to out lie Adam Schiff. Second is we do not know where that gun came from and I am betting it was from one of the homies in the Hispanic ghetto where it was taken from a gang member. Third is that it is a big difference between buying a revolver in kit form and something like what De Leon was holding. Talk about trying to cause a panic based on obvious lies and the stupidity of our politicians. This is good proof that if a person has an IQ higher than 90 they are too smart to be a politician.

Last edited by big red; 11-10-2019 at 10:59 PM.. Reason: spelling in last sentence
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Old 11-10-2019, 9:28 PM
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Did he really say that? And the lawmakers are buying it? Impossible to believe.
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Old 11-10-2019, 11:50 PM
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wonder how many numbered and unnumbered guns they would find in just east la alone?
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Old 11-11-2019, 10:02 AM
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I'm curious, with CA being a so-called "sanctuary state", how many of those in possession of these "illegally possessed" firearms were not legal residents of this state? How many of those people are likely to be prosecuted with felonies for this "illegal possession"?

Until that happens and real criminals end up doing real incarceration time, this is all just PR with numbers that mean nothing. Maybe they use "ghost numbers" to count the "ghost guns".
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Old 11-11-2019, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
(bold/italics emphasis mine) We're seeing them all over California... 1 in 3 confiscated... But, ATF hasn't released any numbers???

Hey. We should be worried though. According to Kevin...
Somehow I can get the numbers, but the people at the Los Angles Times are still waiting on those ATF numbers.
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Old 11-11-2019, 2:59 PM
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If there are so many illegal guns in California how come there are so few gun trials?
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Old 11-11-2019, 6:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan_Eastvale View Post
Did he really say that? And the lawmakers are buying it? Impossible to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrappedinCalifornia View Post
yes that idiot said that. Comes to no surprise a Democrat in California doesn't know the first thing about firearms. Yet will spend their entire career trying take them all away.
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  #35  
Old 11-14-2019, 7:12 AM
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Well... We now know, at least in part, why this information was released.

See the thread I started in National... U.S. Attorney General Announces Launch of Project Guardian
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