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  #1  
Old 06-01-2018, 2:42 PM
MWPatriot MWPatriot is offline
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Default CA Home/Web-based FFL benefits?

I know in other states one can obtain a type 07 FFL and SOT to build and own SBR & suppressors but are there additional hoops to jump through here in CA? I'd love to be able to build and use "assault rifles" at the range without the mag-locked nonsense (not for sale in CA obviously), own suppressors for home defense and be able to transport to and from the range without worrying about some overzealous Sheriff infringing on my civil rights. I have read enough about the process of obtaining said FFL & SOT licenses, local city approvals, etc but I'm not sure if the hassle outweighs the benefits if CA law prohibits even FFL owners. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice!
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Old 06-01-2018, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
I know in other states one can obtain a type 07 FFL and SOT to build and own SBR & suppressors but are there additional hoops to jump through here in CA? I'd love to be able to build and use "assault rifles" at the range without the mag-locked nonsense (not for sale in CA obviously), own suppressors for home defense and be able to transport to and from the range without worrying about some overzealous Sheriff infringing on my civil rights. I have read enough about the process of obtaining said FFL & SOT licenses, local city approvals, etc but I'm not sure if the hassle outweighs the benefits if CA law prohibits even FFL owners. Thanks in advance for your thoughts and advice!
If your not in it to be serious about making money you are barking up the wrong tree.

No, CA FFLs do not get to play with AWs
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  #3  
Old 06-01-2018, 2:59 PM
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ATF will tell you that your FFL is not so you can enhance your personal collection but so you can be engaged in the business of selling firearms. ( or in the 07 category you're manufacturing them) If this is not the case and you just want to play around move to a state that has no restrictions on NFA ownership. Until then play by the rules.
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  #4  
Old 06-01-2018, 3:13 PM
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Originally Posted by taperxz View Post
If your not in it to be serious about making money you are barking up the wrong tree.

No, CA FFLs do not get to play with AWs
Any laws or examples of case study? Cops can have so-called AW's and I'd assume they buy from an FFL, who has to be able to have them and test them at a range, right?

Also, what about SBR & suppressors? Do we just need our Federal tax stamp for those here in CA?
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2018, 3:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
Any laws or examples of case study? Cops can have so-called AW's and I'd assume they buy from an FFL, who has to be able to have them and test them at a range, right?

Also, what about SBR & suppressors? Do we just need our Federal tax stamp for those here in CA?
In order for you to get an AW license you have to apply for a separate state license. In that application you will need to submit proof that you have a market to sell them to. That means letters from local LEO agencies willing to purchase from you. Good luck doing that when you tell those LEO agencies you just don't want to be hassled.

Suppressors you can get with the SOT.

Also, depending where you live you may not be zoned for being an FFL. On top of that you may not be zoned for AW. Prepare to harden the house and go through audits.

Can you even get an FFL at your house? Have you checked zoning? Do you need a permit from your local LEO? Are you going to tell them you intend to do no business, but want to increase your own collection?

Then there's the issue of distributors that still deal with home based businesses that purchase 1 or 2 firearms a year.

You really need to think it through a little more of how much hassle you're going to go through. SOT alone I think is $500 / yr (I don't have one and don't recall price).
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Old 06-01-2018, 3:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
In order for you to get an AW license you have to apply for a separate state license. In that application you will need to submit proof that you have a market to sell them to. That means letters from local LEO agencies willing to purchase from you. Good luck doing that when you tell those LEO agencies you just don't want to be hassled.

Suppressors you can get with the SOT.

Also, depending where you live you may not be zoned for being an FFL. On top of that you may not be zoned for AW. Prepare to harden the house and go through audits.

Can you even get an FFL at your house? Have you checked zoning? Do you need a permit from your local LEO? Are you going to tell them you intend to do no business, but want to increase your own collection?

Then there's the issue of distributors that still deal with home based businesses that purchase 1 or 2 firearms a year.

You really need to think it through a little more of how much hassle you're going to go through. SOT alone I think is $500 / yr (I don't have one and don't recall price).
Fantastic, thanks for the detailed response. Yes, I realize that it might be close to impossible. The cost wouldn't be an issue if it were possible, but you bring up a good point about local LEO requirements. That would be difficult without proper connections. What about sales out of state? Any other exemptions that would allow AW permits? Maybe if I had out-of-state law enforcement contracts? Just spit-balling here...

Ok, so concerning SBRs & suppressors, assuming one has an SOT stamp they can be legally owned in CA (as long as the SBR is featureless). Can they be transported to and used at the gun range without worry that they'll be confiscated? Anyone have experience with these things?
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  #7  
Old 06-01-2018, 3:45 PM
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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
Fantastic, thanks for the detailed response. Yes, I realize that it might be close to impossible. The cost wouldn't be an issue if it were possible, but you bring up a good point about local LEO requirements. That would be difficult without proper connections. What about sales out of state? Any other exemptions that would allow AW permits? Maybe if I had out-of-state law enforcement contracts? Just spit-balling here...

Ok, so concerning SBRs & suppressors, assuming one has an SOT stamp they can be legally owned in CA (as long as the SBR is featureless). Can they be transported to and used at the gun range without worry that they'll be confiscated? Anyone have experience with these things?
I don't recall the overlap with state/fed laws for SBRs.

CA doesn't give a rat's butt if you sell out of state. They'll only grant you an AW permit for in-state LEO sales. Any other reason isn't good enough.

There are additional security requirements for AW (Dangerous Weapons Permits).

You can shoot anything legal in public if you have the right paperwork. Just have to follow all the insane laws around them.

As far as the bolded section... We're in CA you can't assume that for anything.
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  #8  
Old 06-01-2018, 3:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ugimports View Post
I don't recall the overlap with state/fed laws for SBRs.

CA doesn't give a rat's butt if you sell out of state. They'll only grant you an AW permit for in-state LEO sales. Any other reason isn't good enough.

There are additional security requirements for AW (Dangerous Weapons Permits).

You can shoot anything legal in public if you have the right paperwork. Just have to follow all the insane laws around them.

As far as the bolded section... We're in CA you can't assume that for anything.
Good point. Man I cannot believe that they've managed to call pistol grips and adjustable stocks "dangerous weapon" features and it hasn't been overturned yet. What will they try to ban next, fluted barrels and picatinny rails??? It's time we stopped waiting for NRA & CRPA and started fighting back. If someone starts a GoFundMe they'll get donations from every gun-owner in America. Flood the zone with lawsuits until this nonsense is put to death forever. Ok, rant over! Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions!
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  #9  
Old 06-05-2018, 10:15 PM
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SBRs are banned by California statute even if they are featureless. There is a special California permit available, but as discussed above there are very narrow circumstances that must be proven to obtain one. If you have the option of moving out of state you’d be set. Or go visit Audiophil to get your NFA fix.
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Old 06-06-2018, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
Fantastic, thanks for the detailed response. Yes, I realize that it might be close to impossible. The cost wouldn't be an issue if it were possible, but you bring up a good point about local LEO requirements. That would be difficult without proper connections. What about sales out of state? Any other exemptions that would allow AW permits? Maybe if I had out-of-state law enforcement contracts? Just spit-balling here...

Ok, so concerning SBRs & suppressors, assuming one has an SOT stamp they can be legally owned in CA (as long as the SBR is featureless). Can they be transported to and used at the gun range without worry that they'll be confiscated? Anyone have experience with these things?
If cost is not an issue then you could do it. Eventually ATF will revoke your license if they determine you are just enhancing your collection. You actually have to be in the business of selling NFA stuff to keep your SOT. LEO and MIL get their guns direct from the manufacturer or through a large distributor that specializes in LEO sales. No home based FFL will be able to compete. You might get lucky and be able to sell to a small LEA.

Out of state sales are possible but again you are competing with much larger vendors. Why would Joe Bob buy an AR15 from you for $600 when he can get it from grabagun for $500 which is less then your cost? Suppressors are monopolized by silencershop so you can give up on NFA sales and those that do not buy from silencershop want to hold the suppressor in their hand. The only way I can compete is by letting customers use their suppressors or other NFA items on my range while they wait for their stamp. You cannot do that in CA since no one can buy them locally.

Keep in mind that you will also be competing against private sales. In most states anyone can by a gun face to face on the street. Tax free. DROS free. Transfer free. Paper trail free.

Back to the NFA stuff. When you take your suppressors to the range to play with you have to log them out and log them back in when oyu return. How many times do you think oyu can "demo" or "test" them before ATF questions your motives? Remember, those NFA items do not belong to you. They belong to the company. If you are sole prop you are still considered a business so treating them like personal possessions will result in issues. Will you be keeping a record of the agencies you demo'd them to or will oyu just hope ATF does not ask to see that list?

Then there is the home defense issue. Since NFA stuff is supposed to be locked up and innaccesible to anyone not on the FFL or an authorized user how will you deal with anyone living in the same place as you if oyu leave your NFA stuff out in the open?

You have not done much homework at all. Even the homework you have done is incorrect.
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  #11  
Old 06-06-2018, 12:15 PM
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...Back to the NFA stuff. When you take your suppressors to the range to play with you have to log them out and log them back in when oyu return.
Audiophil, can you elaborate on the above?

Would the FFL be logging in and out of the A&D book? What is the FFL writing under disposition for taking it out for a range test?
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Old 06-06-2018, 5:20 PM
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Originally Posted by swell1957 View Post
Audiophil, can you elaborate on the above?

Would the FFL be logging in and out of the A&D book? What is the FFL writing under disposition for taking it out for a range test?
Not much to elaborate. All firearms listed in the A&D book must be present for ATF inspection. NFA is even more important. Even though the OP wants to illegally use an FFL to enhance his personal collection he still has to play by the rules before he gets caught. If he takes his A&D items out to play they have to be logged out of the book. It is up to him how he wants to make those entries. When ATF comes to audit they already have a list of all NFA items in the FFLs inventory. I had a suppressor listed to me but could not find it until I remembered I had cancelled that suppressor with my distributor. The distributor failed to cancel the transfer so even though it was attached ot my FFL I never had it since they never shipped it. ATF got on the distributors case for failing to cancel the form3 since technically it was no longer their suppressor once it got approved and they were illegally possessing it.

Not too easy to take a suppressor out weekly and say it is for demo or testing purposes if he has no LEO or MIL clients to actually demo them for. All my NFA stuff is for demo use. Clients come and try them out and if they like it they either buy the demo at a discount or order a new item. Even my post samples can be used as demos since I can demo a $100 selectfire lower for a client so he can decide if he wants to spend $20,000 on a transferable model. It's not like I'm going to let him play with a $20,000 machine gun to see if he likes it or not.
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Old 06-06-2018, 8:07 PM
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Yes, I understand the importance of firearms being logged and present, esp. for inspection.
But if a firearm or NFA item leaves for testing, what is logged as disposition?
It would seem incorrect to note the individual or range location.
I see the convenience of having the range on-site! Yours must be a nice set-up.
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Old 06-07-2018, 12:23 AM
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Yes, I understand the importance of firearms being logged and present, esp. for inspection.
But if a firearm or NFA item leaves for testing, what is logged as disposition?
It would seem incorrect to note the individual or range location.
I see the convenience of having the range on-site! Yours must be a nice set-up.
i have multiple books. 1 book is used for demo guns so i move them from my inventory a and d to my demo a and d and then back to my inventory a and when it is sold. ankther book for repairs and another book for manufacturing. anything that comes or leaves as a transfer from my shop only does so on my inventory a and d. if i destroy a gun to turn it into a machine gun it goes to repair then manufacture then to inventory once it is rebuilt into a mg. if it is a repair i log it into my repair book so atf does not ask why there is no ffl or 4473. every line in my inventory a and d either has an ffl or 4473. atf loves my system.

my range is pretty sweet. i have other manufacturers and training companies renting it out since most ranges have a lot of restrictions and will not usually operate at night.
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Old 06-07-2018, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
Good point. Man I cannot believe that they've managed to call pistol grips and adjustable stocks "dangerous weapon" features and it hasn't been overturned yet.
CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permits have been required since the late-1960s (DD & MG) and early-1970s (SBR & SBS) and late-1980s (assault weapon).

In order to obtain a Dangerous Weapons Permit, you need a valid good cause.

Examples of current acceptable good causes for issuance:
A. To make, demonstrate, and transfer to Gov/Mil/LE agencies and FFL/SOT.
B. For training, research and development for a Gov/Mil/LE agency.
C. To repair and maintain for a Gov/Mil/LE agency and FFL/SOT.
D. To make and utilize as a prop in the entertainment industry.

In order to establish your good cause, you need to provide valid contracts from Gov/Mil/LE agencies and/or from an entertainment studio.

All dangerous weapons (assault weapon, DD, MG, SBR, SBS) must be registered with CA DOJ BOF.
All locations where the dangerous weapons will be stored must be registered with CA DOJ BOF.
All vehicles that will be utilized to transport the dangerous weapons must be registered with CA DOJ BOF.

All storage locations must meet minimum security standards.
All vehicles must meet minimum security standards.

Transporting a dangerous weapon in an unregistered vehicle or storing a dangerous weapon in an unregistered location, is grounds for permit revokation and the entire inventory being confiscated.

Using a dangerous weapon beyond the scope of the good cause for issuance, is grounds for permit revokation and the entire inventory being confiscated.
^Examples of use beyond the scope of the good cause for inssuance are:
1. Using it in self-defense.
2. Using it for recreational shooting.

Annual usage reports and fees must be submitted to CA DOJ BOF.

CA DOJ BOF agents will also conduct compliance inspection audits on the permit holder.



The CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permit system is being looked at by NV legislators for implementation in Nevada.
^Tourism (rental) industry being an added good cause for issuance.
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Old 06-07-2018, 6:06 AM
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Thanks for this Quiet. Yeah at this point I'm just going fixed-mag but exception D would actually not be that difficult to get, I used to build movie websites and lived in Hollywood for quite a while. Not worth the effort though.

In the meantime I will continue pushing for HR3576 to be passed that would give everyone nationwide a reprieve if their state is run by Communists: https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-...bill/3576/text
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Old 06-07-2018, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
I know in other states one can obtain a type 07 FFL and SOT to build and own SBR & suppressors but are there additional hoops to jump through here in CA?
Lots of them. In other states as well.

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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
I'd love to be able to build and use "assault rifles" at the range without the mag-locked nonsense (not for sale in CA obviously), own suppressors for home defense and be able to transport to and from the range without worrying about some overzealous Sheriff infringing on my civil rights.
Then you won't qualify for your FFL. You must be planning to engage in the business of firearms manufacturing and sales to qualify. It's not a license for personal use.

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Originally Posted by MWPatriot View Post
I have read enough about the process of obtaining said FFL & SOT licenses, local city approvals, etc but I'm not sure if the hassle outweighs the benefits if CA law prohibits even FFL owners.
Since there are hundreds of home-based FFLs in CA and many more storefront FFLs, it's obvious CA doesn't ban them. There are quite a few NFA/SOT manufacturers as well.

Best guess is you will not become one of them.

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Old 06-07-2018, 9:17 AM
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Best guess is you will not become one of them.
Ha! That sounds like a challenge!!
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Old 06-07-2018, 9:23 AM
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Ha! That sounds like a challenge!!
Do it. I buy NFA stuff from FFLs all the time that want to play and then realize it is a waste of their money due to all the restrictions. I pay 30 cents on the dollar of dealer cost.
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Old 06-07-2018, 5:32 PM
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CA DOJ Dangerous Weapons Permits have been required since the late-1960s (DD & MG) and early-1970s (SBR & SBS) and late-1980s (assault weapon)...
Quiet,

Any idea on this below from the DOJ BOF website? I never noticed this before. We know there are 01s and 07s with DW permits. So are they trying to limit which FFLs get DW permits now?

"Dangerous Weapons (DW) License/Permit(s) Application Optional License/Permit
An applicant must have a FFL Type 09, 10, or 11 to apply for a Dangerous Weapons (DW) License/Permit through the DOJ."


From here: https://oag.ca.gov/firearms/dealer-vendor
(about 1/3 of the way down)
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Old 06-08-2018, 1:34 AM
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... but exception D would actually not be that difficult to get, I used to build movie websites and lived in Hollywood for quite a while. Not worth the effort though.
Yep, not worth it.

California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 7 Article 3.5 Section 4134
Commercial Motion Picture, Television Production, or Other Commercial Entertainment Event.
(a) Documentation required to determine bona fide necessity for possession or manufacturing of dangerous weapons for commercial motion picture, television production, or other commercial entertainment event includes the following:
(1) If an agent of a studio, the applicant must provide a letter of need and verification of employment from the studio.
(2) If an agent of a rental company or an independent property master, the applicant must provide letters of interest from the studios.
(b) Persons attempting to establish a business in this area who have not yet been retained by clients shall provide copies or business correspondence or other evidence of their activities which they deem will show reasonable efforts to supply dangerous weapons for use in commercial motion picture, television production, or other commercial entertainment event.

California Code of Regulations Title 11 Divison 5 Chapter 7 Article 4 Section 4138
General.
The DOJ shall conduct investigations of applicants for dangerous weapon licenses/permits to establish grounds for the issuance or denial of the application as follows:
(a) Related Persons. Additional persons who may be investigated are:
(1) Persons with 10 percent or more interest in the licensee/permittee's business.
(2) Persons with authority to make management decisions for the licensee/permittee.
(3) Persons who have access to the dangerous weapon(s).
(b) Applicant's Business Role and/or Control of the Business. The following areas may be investigated concerning the applicant's business role and/or control of the business:
(1) Primary function of the business.
(2) Law enforcement's comments on the business.
(3) Applicant's financial interest in the business and source of funds.
(4) Applicant's role in and/or control of the business.
(5) Spouse's association with the business.
(c) Applicant's Personal Qualifications. The following areas may be investigated concerning the applicant's personal background:
(1) Character assessment by personal and/or business acquaintances and appropriate law enforcement and government agencies.
(2) Criminal history and driving record.
(3) Military record.
(4) Past employment or expertise related to the weapon to be covered by the requested license/permit.
(5) Medical history.
__________________


"If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun. - Dalai Lama (Seattle Times, 05-15-2001).
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