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  #1  
Old 05-23-2016, 11:13 PM
Jason95357 Jason95357 is offline
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Question Front Sight - diamond lifetimes for $20 on eBay ?!?!

Last year I bought Front Sight Diamond Lifetime memberships for my wife and I for like $100-something (less than $200, probably around $125/each) from a CGN member (I think, I couldn't find any PMs about the transaction).

Finally getting around to booking us on four-day handgun defensive class for the wife and I. We both have our LTCs and carry daily, and while we've done local CCW and intro self-defense day classes, we want to up our game.

So then I was thinking about the kids and bringing them (in the future, not this first trip). None of them are 21, so they can't get their CCW permits and even if they could, thanks to retarded California they can't carry on college campus. But, if nothing else, there are some cool empty-hand and edged-blade self-defense classes, and rope/repelling classes that would keep them busy until they wanted to put the effort out to do a shotgun, rifle, or handgun class (they've done Appleseed two-day shoots, and frankly they would have been more happy if they were 4-hour shoots).

I started looking at the Front Sight Diamond memberships on eBay for the kids, and I see them being offered as Buy It Now for less than $20. Is the market just so saturated that no one is buying these? Are folks buying these but never going?

I know several co-workers who have memberships (above Diamond) and have gone many times (not sure exactly how often, more more than 2-3 times, maybe once every two years or so). The Madison Society CCW training staff go yearly and rent a house. Point is, some people are using these memberships. Not sure what they paid, but I just can't see how this can be sustainable at $20/person for lifetime, let alone $250 or $150 that some folks were able to pick them up for in recent years.

Yeah, there is that lame annual $50 "background" check fee - but is that really enough to offset the cost of a class?
--
Edit: Found that after I purchased each Diamond from the TBD owner, I paid a transfer fee of $100 direct to FS as well. Doesn't change the questions, but wanted to make sure I added that info.
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Last edited by Jason95357; 05-24-2016 at 12:11 AM..
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  #2  
Old 05-24-2016, 10:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Last year I bought Front Sight Diamond Lifetime memberships for my wife and I for like $100-something (less than $200, probably around $125/each) from a CGN member (I think, I couldn't find any PMs about the transaction).

Finally getting around to booking us on four-day handgun defensive class for the wife and I. We both have our LTCs and carry daily, and while we've done local CCW and intro self-defense day classes, we want to up our game.

So then I was thinking about the kids and bringing them (in the future, not this first trip). None of them are 21, so they can't get their CCW permits and even if they could, thanks to retarded California they can't carry on college campus. But, if nothing else, there are some cool empty-hand and edged-blade self-defense classes, and rope/repelling classes that would keep them busy until they wanted to put the effort out to do a shotgun, rifle, or handgun class (they've done Appleseed two-day shoots, and frankly they would have been more happy if they were 4-hour shoots).

I started looking at the Front Sight Diamond memberships on eBay for the kids, and I see them being offered as Buy It Now for less than $20. Is the market just so saturated that no one is buying these? Are folks buying these but never going?

I know several co-workers who have memberships (above Diamond) and have gone many times (not sure exactly how often, more more than 2-3 times, maybe once every two years or so). The Madison Society CCW training staff go yearly and rent a house. Point is, some people are using these memberships. Not sure what they paid, but I just can't see how this can be sustainable at $20/person for lifetime, let alone $250 or $150 that some folks were able to pick them up for in recent years.

Yeah, there is that lame annual $50 "background" check fee - but is that really enough to offset the cost of a class?
--
Edit: Found that after I purchased each Diamond from the TBD owner, I paid a transfer fee of $100 direct to FS as well. Doesn't change the questions, but wanted to make sure I added that info.
Just as you suspect it's not going to sustainable in the long run. Someday the market will be so overly saturated that they won't be able to seel memberships, ... and they'll run out of money and the whole thing will come tumbling down. So get training while you can as I don't think you'll be able to forever.

That's just my $0.02.

Last edited by RoundEye; 05-25-2016 at 7:50 AM..
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  #3  
Old 05-24-2016, 10:39 AM
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I bought my membership about 5 years ago, and I consider it money well spent. I have been to Front Sight 7 times and received good training.

I went 2 weeks after I bought the membership because I did not think it would be in business long, but here we are 5 years later and it is still there.
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  #4  
Old 05-24-2016, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bert Gamble View Post
I bought my membership about 5 years ago, and I consider it money well spent. I have been to Front Sight 7 times and received good training.

I went 2 weeks after I bought the membership because I did not think it would be in business long, but here we are 5 years later and it is still there.
Yup, I knew I was rolling the dice, but also knew they had a bit of a good track record with 3 people I knew personally (each with their own group that goes) who have used them. I suspect I would consider I am at break-even if I go 2 times for my wife and my membership. Anything after that is gravy.

We shall see. I recently purchased a lifetime membership at my local gun range. They only allow 750 members, so there is a 2-3 year waiting list for people to die/move away/not renew.

Costs were going up for them and they were going to up the annual and lifetime memberships by 50% in March. Everyone I know who is a member there bought lifetime memberships before this occurred as they gave credit for the annual dues paid in January, it is only 5 years to break even. Gun club owns their land, is in a rural community with no housing threats nearby, so I fully expect to get my money's worth and then some.

But same problem exists there. If all of us "young" 30-40 year olds buy lifetime and stick around for another 30+ years, how will they fund themselves? I am sure they know their churn rate. At least with this club, it is public info. I plan to ask for the churn and budget info at the next monthly meeting as there are is a new constitution and by-laws to vote for.
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  #5  
Old 05-24-2016, 8:13 PM
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I don't understand how this works, are there people that actually pay 15k for a membership? Then there's a people on eBay buying for $20? How mad is that first guy. I want to buy one, just seems too good to be true.
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  #6  
Old 05-24-2016, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post
Last year I bought Front Sight Diamond Lifetime memberships for my wife and I for like $100-something (less than $200, probably around $125/each) from a CGN member (I think, I couldn't find any PMs about the transaction).

Finally getting around to booking us on four-day handgun defensive class for the wife and I. We both have our LTCs and carry daily, and while we've done local CCW and intro self-defense day classes, we want to up our game.

So then I was thinking about the kids and bringing them (in the future, not this first trip). None of them are 21, so they can't get their CCW permits and even if they could, thanks to retarded California they can't carry on college campus. But, if nothing else, there are some cool empty-hand and edged-blade self-defense classes, and rope/repelling classes that would keep them busy until they wanted to put the effort out to do a shotgun, rifle, or handgun class (they've done Appleseed two-day shoots, and frankly they would have been more happy if they were 4-hour shoots).

I started looking at the Front Sight Diamond memberships on eBay for the kids, and I see them being offered as Buy It Now for less than $20. Is the market just so saturated that no one is buying these? Are folks buying these but never going?

I know several co-workers who have memberships (above Diamond) and have gone many times (not sure exactly how often, more more than 2-3 times, maybe once every two years or so). The Madison Society CCW training staff go yearly and rent a house. Point is, some people are using these memberships. Not sure what they paid, but I just can't see how this can be sustainable at $20/person for lifetime, let alone $250 or $150 that some folks were able to pick them up for in recent years.

Yeah, there is that lame annual $50 "background" check fee - but is that really enough to offset the cost of a class?
--
Edit: Found that after I purchased each Diamond from the TBD owner, I paid a transfer fee of $100 direct to FS as well. Doesn't change the questions, but wanted to make sure I added that info.
So you paid $125 for your memberships. Not long ago, I was chatting with a guy that was selling Diamonds for $25 including transfer fee. Lots of folks selling for under $100. Realize the money is in the upgrades for FS. The initial membership sale is simply compensation for his member sales force.
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  #7  
Old 05-24-2016, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Zspicy View Post
I don't understand how this works, are there people that actually pay 15k for a membership? Then there's a people on eBay buying for $20? How mad is that first guy. I want to buy one, just seems too good to be true.
The market place is terribly inefficient, so prices are all over the place. This was particularly the case before people could advertise on public internet sites.
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Old 05-24-2016, 8:42 PM
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Who cares, Go get some training and have some fun. They give you memberships to sell/give away when/if you upgrade your membership so lots of people have memberships to sell.

Personally, for the most part, I take advantage of the training and ignore the marketing.

I'll be there this weekend.
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  #9  
Old 05-24-2016, 8:42 PM
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Originally they wanted only "organic" sales by members to others in their community (friends and family). Not sure why they changed that policy or if it is a good thing or if I should pick up one for each of my kids off of eBay and some close family friends we would like to have come with us (if it really is just $20 and no transfer fee).

I can see us going at least 10 years before we ever exhaust what diamond offers, and even then we need to brush up once a year. Or primary focus is CCW and handguns and self defense. Rifle and shotgun sound cool, and I could see doing them at some point, but not worried about chasing the advanced classes.
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Old 05-24-2016, 10:42 PM
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I remember reading somewhere that FS makes money mostly by selling ammo and recycles brass.
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Old 05-25-2016, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lugiahua View Post
I remember reading somewhere that FS makes money mostly by selling ammo and recycles brass.
Ammo is sold by a third-party on site. Yes, I have read they do collect all the brass.

FYI, I have just picked up two more Diamond memberships for $19/each on eBay, no transfer fee.

I am bummed to see that the open hand, knife, and ropes/repelling classes are not offered as often as the other classes. The non-firearm classes all appear to be at "off" times, mostly when it is hot or there are no firearms classes.
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  #12  
Old 05-31-2016, 2:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Jason95357 View Post

FYI, I have just picked up two more Diamond memberships for $19/each on eBay, no transfer fee.
Thanks, I'd rather pay $19 vs $100 too.

Are attendees required to buy their ammo?
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Old 05-31-2016, 2:52 PM
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Thanks, I'd rather pay $19 vs $100 too.

Are attendees required to buy their ammo?
Yes, attendees must purchase their own ammo. Front Sight does not supply it. If you are using FS firearms, you much purchase your ammo from their preferred vendor, Stockpile Defense.
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Old 05-31-2016, 7:33 PM
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So how does this Front Sight actually works ?

I see tons of people selling memberships as you guys posted her earlier between 25 bucks and 15K

What would I get for my 25 bucks ?

Also a Lifetime Membership or . . . ?

What additional / hidden cost ?
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Old 05-31-2016, 7:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Kingair001 View Post
So how does this Front Sight actually works ?

I see tons of people selling memberships as you guys posted her earlier between 25 bucks and 15K

What would I get for my 25 bucks ?

Also a Lifetime Membership or . . . ?

What additional / hidden cost ?
For $25 bucks, it sounds like you can buy a Diamond membership that let you take any class at Front Sight Nevada for a lifetime. There may or may not be an additional $100 transfer fee. Additionally, FS does an annual background check that runs $50. This is only charged in years that your train.

Even if you pay $175 and take one four-day class you are money ahead.

Understand that FS basically turns its members into a sales force by providing this TBD memberships as part of memberships and upgrades. So members sell a membership to new members. Then FS makes money selling membership upgrades to the new members.
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Old 05-31-2016, 7:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
For $25 bucks, it sounds like you can buy a Diamond membership that let you take any class at Front Sight Nevada for a lifetime. There may or may not be an additional $100 transfer fee. Additionally, FS does an annual background check that runs $50. This is only charged in years that your train.

Even if you pay $175 and take one four-day class you are money ahead.

Understand that FS basically turns its members into a sales force by providing this TBD memberships as part of memberships and upgrades. So members sell a membership to new members. Then FS makes money selling membership upgrades to the new members.
So are the courses included - even in the 25.00 memberships - or is there an addition fee per course ?

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Old 05-31-2016, 8:53 PM
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So are the courses included - even in the 25.00 memberships - or is there an addition fee per course ?
...
The only additional fee, which is a ripoff, is the yearly $50 fee for background check. One can go to FS for all courses that are being offered (assuming one qualifies) with a Diamond membership.
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Old 05-31-2016, 8:58 PM
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24 hour fitness... Same deal... Sell memberships...

I went a lot in the first few days at front sight... Then I started seeking training from more advanced instructors.....


So while it is a lifetime membership, many stop going after year 3


And many of my friends are incompetent as a defensive shooter, even at $20, they will not take a class.... So who do I sell my memberships to????


At $20, I would be tempted to buy a few dozen and donate them as door prizes at NRA member council meetings and to local PDs to give to their officers who sometimes fail qualifications
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Old 05-31-2016, 9:03 PM
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And yes, the $50 background fee is a profit center....

If you have a ccw or are LEO, you still get to pay the fee
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Old 06-01-2016, 3:16 AM
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So are the courses included - even in the 25.00 memberships - or is there an addition fee per course ?

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Yes, all courses are included. No course fee. If it make you feel better you can pay $2500 for your Diamond membership. lol

Also realize that some Diamonds allow for discounted ammo and guns through FS's preferred vendor, Stockpile Defense.
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  #21  
Old 06-01-2016, 3:36 PM
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and these Ebay memberships are legit?.
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Old 06-02-2016, 9:21 PM
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and these Ebay memberships are legit?.
I already owned two, which I purchased for my wife and I from a "friend" here on CGN. I purchased two more for two of my children from eBay after I posted this. I created myfrontsight.com accounts for the kids and gave the User ID to the eBay seller. Within 24 hours he had transferred the Diamond memberships and each of my kids' User ID account on myfrontsight.com show they are also Diamond members.

So, short of FS revoking these memberships, looks like the are legit. My concern is that FS is rapidly being reduced to a zero value - or will have classes so booked they won't be able to fit people in or will have such a low instructor to student ratio to make it little better than watching a training video. However, if I can get one trip out of each membership, it is worth it. If I get two, the memberships are ahead in value. Everything beyond that is all gravy.
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Old 06-02-2016, 9:33 PM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Yes, all courses are included. No course fee. If it make you feel better you can pay $2500 for your Diamond membership. lol

Also realize that some Diamonds allow for discounted ammo and guns through FS's preferred vendor, Stockpile Defense.
Note: unless you live in Vegas or Pahrump, it's going to cost you $300 or so for a hotel for 5 nights, and no matter where you live gas to get there and back (add 50 minutes round-trip from hotel to class and back if you are not local) and $50/year for a "background" check. Plus your ammo, of course. I don't count meals, as you're going to eat if you're at home or going to classes, and if you're like use you'll bring an ice chest and do it on the cheap. Point is, your "free" classes are going to cost you $500 or so, and I'm betting that limiting factor helps them keep from getting too full. If someone is flying it, naturally that cost is going to be even more.

There is no background check for years you don't attend a class. You just pay it the first time you attend a class each year. So for my family, at $50/each taking 4 of us, is still $200 for "background" checks. How they perform these against minors who don't even have credit histories is beyond me. That my California or Nevada LTCs don't suffice is also retarded, but they claim it is "required by their insurance."

I'll get what I can out of them for 2-5 years, and then I'll probably move on to Gunsite in Arizona or the like.
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Old 06-06-2016, 6:02 AM
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I talked to AAShooter about it, and purchased a membership from him(well the check is in the mail so to speak)..I have the ability to get Vegas resorts hotels for very cheap, so that wont be a big problem..The rest isnt that big a deal to me..but thanks for the insight on Front Site..Take Care
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Old 06-06-2016, 6:04 AM
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"So, short of FS revoking these memberships, looks like the are legit. My concern is that FS is rapidly being reduced to a zero value - or will have classes so booked they won't be able to fit people in or will have such a low instructor to student ratio to make it little better than watching a training video. However, if I can get one trip out of each membership, it is worth it. If I get two, the memberships are ahead in value. Everything beyond that is all gravy. "

Yep I was wondering about some of those same things..well no matter what its just 65 bucks..
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Old 06-07-2016, 7:23 AM
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Default Background check for minors.

[QUOTE How they perform these against minors who don't even have credit histories is beyond me. [/QUOTE]

I took one of my grandsons, 16, to the 4dhg class last May and when he signed up it showed his paper work was all finished. I called Front Sight to confirm and they said a minor does not need a background check. No charge. Just FYI.
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Old 06-08-2016, 5:28 AM
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The only additional fee, which is a ripoff, is the yearly $50 fee for background check. One can go to FS for all courses that are being offered (assuming one qualifies) with a Diamond membership.
How can you get a ton of training for cheap and still consider the $50 a ripoff? $50 a year is nothing.
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Old 06-08-2016, 6:17 AM
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For $25 bucks, it sounds like you can buy a Diamond membership that let you take any class at Front Sight Nevada for a lifetime.
Importantly, it is NOT "any" class. For example, unless they have changed it, you can't take advanced handgun courses until you "DG" the basic one. Only two or three people per class DG it. So, you might have to take the basic class many times to DG and move on, if you ever get there.
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Old 06-08-2016, 6:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Lives_In_Fresno View Post
Importantly, it is NOT "any" class. For example, unless they have changed it, you can't take advanced handgun courses until you "DG" the basic one. Only two or three people per class DG it. So, you might have to take the basic class many times to DG and move on, if you ever get there.
True, some classes have prerequisites. They want to make sure people have solid gun handling skills before they hit advanced classes.
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  #30  
Old 06-08-2016, 6:45 AM
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diverwcw diverwcw is online now
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I love Front Sight and I have been 11 times. I go 3 to 4 times a year. I started out as a Diamond Member and have upgraded several times. I find their training is the best I've been attended, and I've been trained by a host of different training entities, e.g., FBI, US military, local law enforcement and various private training venues. At Front Sight, there is no drill sergeant mentality, there are no major personalities and staff is respectful students.

If you have a membership and have not been, by all means go. Their two day handgun course is put on frequently. It may be a bit of remedial for people who have experience with firearms but there is a method to their madness. Also, keep in mind that they teach several things in the course so it's not a class where you just go up to the line and start shooting.

If you do not have a membership, I have some FREE training certificates I will give you. PM for further details.
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  #31  
Old 04-18-2018, 6:25 PM
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Did something change? I don't see any Front Sight Diamond memberships for sale on eBay anymore.
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  #32  
Old 04-19-2018, 7:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoundEye View Post
Just as you suspect it's not going to sustainable in the long run. Someday the market will be so overly saturated that they won't be able to seel memberships, ... and they'll run out of money and the whole thing will come tumbling down. So get training while you can as I don't think you'll be able to forever.

That's just my $0.02.
Have been seeing that for over a decade. Not to say it isn't true but . . .
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  #33  
Old 04-19-2018, 7:33 AM
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Have you looked at amazon. The membership s are less.
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