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  #1  
Old 12-06-2017, 2:32 PM
NotASnowFlake NotASnowFlake is offline
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Default The use/brandishing a weapon on your own property when there's an intruder?

Hello all,

Recently, My neighbor a few houses down got a video of a perp opening their side gate and trying to gain access into their house via the back yard/side door. Luckily, their doors were locked and they were home, but it makes me question, what I would do in my house, and the possible ramifications that could come to me. So i'm wondering.

Let's say the same scenario happened, where a perp opened the side gate to my house and tried gaining access to my house. But unlike my neighbor, I heard the side gate opening and him trying to gain access into my house. Would it be okay to pull out my firearm and look at what is going on, from the front of the house(blocking his exit point), so that he can't run away? Would brandishing my firearm in this case, be ok or no? I just want to be able to protect and defend my family if SHTF.

I ask too, because a few years back, someone tried kicking down our side gate and tried kicking our side door into the house down in the middle of the night(like 3am). I turned on the lights and they ran.

Thanks
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  #2  
Old 12-06-2017, 2:49 PM
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From here I can see his weapon so the shoot is justfied self defense, you were in fear of your life when he attacked you.
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Old 12-06-2017, 2:53 PM
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Inside your residence PC 198.5 will PROBABLY protect you unless, there is evidence that you were not in fear of your life or that of another. Outside your residence, like on the front porch, in the backyard, etc. regular self defense laws apply but, that's it. In fact, if a trespasser is in your backyard and there isn't an imminent threat to your life or that of another, you have no legal right to use lethal force to stop the trespasser or detain him/her. If you use lethal force, the trespasser is the one who has the legal right to defend him/her self.
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Old 12-06-2017, 3:02 PM
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There is no good reason to block his exit in your scenario. Are you protecting your family or trying to apprehend the person?

Protect your family from inside your house and make sure the intruder knows you are armed, wouldn't hurt to have it recorded on the 911 call prior to any actual use of your weapon.

If you want to apprehend a person, go become a LEO.
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Old 12-06-2017, 3:34 PM
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Brandishing when reasonably done to prevent a crime may be justifiable. The key is what is reasonable. What is reasonable will be up to the trier of fact, which in most cases will be a jury. Of course it may never get to a jury if law enforcement, the DA, and or the judge are convinced in the reasonableness. Blocking the exit in order to prevent a possible crime doesn't sound so reasonable. It sounds like you are aggravating the situation.

Your gated side yard may not be a public place, but it isn't inside your home as CSACANNONEEER notes. 3453's post is right on.

Should you shoot and avoid criminal liability you have set yourself up for a nasty civil suit.
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Old 12-06-2017, 4:09 PM
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It solely relies on the attitude of the police and district attorney in your area. If the police and DA in your area are anti gun, prepare to get arrested and charged.
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Old 12-06-2017, 5:15 PM
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The Gas Company and Electric Company meter readers are watching this thread with trepidations.
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Old 12-06-2017, 5:43 PM
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Get a dog


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Old 12-06-2017, 7:51 PM
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Get a dog


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Guard geese work better because, not many lowlifes know anything about geese and it throws them a new curve that they can't easily process.
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Old 12-06-2017, 8:41 PM
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Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
Guard geese work better because, not many lowlifes know anything about geese and it throws them a new curve that they can't easily process.


Are you joking?
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Old 12-06-2017, 8:46 PM
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Are you joking?
No, have you ever experienced a gaggle of guard geese? They can be very aggressive, noisy and scary.
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  #12  
Old 12-06-2017, 9:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
No, have you ever experienced a gaggle of guard geese? They can be very aggressive, noisy and scary.
I grew up on a farm so maybe the shock and awe is lost on me.
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Old 12-06-2017, 9:06 PM
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https://www.cuteness.com/article/use...-home-security
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Old 12-06-2017, 9:09 PM
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My grandma had a goose. As bad as a yard dog!
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Old 12-06-2017, 9:09 PM
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The majority of geese breeds are CA legal and do not require any type of CA Fish & Game licensing to own.

For more info on acquiring/owning geese in CA, contact Metzer Farms, they are a CA based Duck & Goose Hatchery.
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Old 12-06-2017, 9:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CSACANNONEER View Post
No, have you ever experienced a gaggle of guard geese? They can be very aggressive, noisy and scary.
Aggressive, yup




goose has attitude
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Old 12-06-2017, 9:46 PM
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"Brandish"? so.... let's say he has a gun too. You brandish your gun, and he pulls his out... then what?

do you:

A. Stare at each other with guns drawn just yelling at each other and enter a pissing contest threatening to shoot?
B. Pull the trigger while he is in mid draw, and then you get to go to jail because you had no good cause for fearing for your life or the life of your loved ones (Burden of proof is on you to prove imminent loss of life/danger)
C. Don't have the balls to pull the trigger and since he is committing a crime anyways and has a gun, whips his out and shoots you and kills you or a loved one.
D. Bacon

My point.... brandishing does nothing but cause a reaction, and 50% of the time, might be a reaction that is not in your favor.

There is a reason why the samurai believe that if their sword is unsheathed, someone has to die.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:05 PM
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Retrieve your firearm of choice from wherever you keep it.
Call 911.
Instruct your wife and children to go to the safest place in the Home.
Wait.
If the baddy manages to gain entrance to the home shoot to stop the threat.
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The majority of geese breeds are CA legal and do not require any type of CA Fish & Game licensing to own.

For more info on acquiring/owning geese in CA, contact Metzer Farms, they are a CA based Duck & Goose Hatchery.
Which breed for property guards please?

http://www.metzerfarms.com/GeeseForS...ustID=17511943
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Old 12-06-2017, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The majority of geese breeds are CA legal and do not require any type of CA Fish & Game licensing to own.

For more info on acquiring/owning geese in CA, contact Metzer Farms, they are a CA based Duck & Goose Hatchery.
Just beware because there's a limit of 10 geese that you can own in California. But out of the state you can have a much larger capacity of geese.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:17 PM
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I would never consider getting guard geese. I hope you guys arenít yanking my chain because thatís just mean.
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Old 12-06-2017, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Mulder View Post
Retrieve your firearm of choice from wherever you keep it.
Call 911.
Instruct your wife and children to go to the safest place in the Home.
Wait.
If the baddy manages to gain entrance to the home shoot to stop the threat.
This.
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Old 12-07-2017, 6:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M76 View Post
Which breed for property guards please?

http://www.metzerfarms.com/GeeseForS...ustID=17511943
Click on the link I provided above.
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Old 12-07-2017, 6:54 AM
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Just know you need a way to contain them and you can’t slap a bark collar on them. A little yapper would be just as effective, easier to care for and provide some companionship, IMO.
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Old 12-07-2017, 6:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Mulder View Post
Retrieve your firearm of choice from wherever you keep it.
Call 911.
Instruct your wife and children to go to the safest place in the Home.
Wait.
If the baddy manages to gain entrance to the home shoot to stop the threat.
+1
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Old 12-07-2017, 8:14 AM
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This has been discussed numerous times. You cannot shoot just because an intruder is in the house. The presumption that you reasonably feared death or great bodily harm if someone broke into your house is rebuttable and even then you are only allowed to use as much force as is necessary to combat the force being used against you.

For example, see what happens if you blow away a skinny 12 year old kid who breaks in to your house and is caught stealing a bottle of root beer and a bag of Oreos, while 250 pound you just returned from batting practice and you have a bat in your hand. The kid is wearing swimming trunks and appears to be unarmed.

You probably can sic your guard geese on the kid, but even that might get you unwanted law enforcement/DA attention.
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Old 12-07-2017, 9:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
This has been discussed numerous times. You cannot shoot just because an intruder is in the house. The presumption that you reasonably feared death or great bodily harm if someone broke into your house is rebuttable and even then you are only allowed to use as much force as is necessary to combat the force being used against you.

For example, see what happens if you blow away a skinny 12 year old kid who breaks in to your house and is caught stealing a bottle of root beer and a bag of Oreos, while 250 pound you just returned from batting practice and you have a bat in your hand. The kid is wearing swimming trunks and appears to be unarmed.

You probably can sic your guard geese on the kid, but even that might get you unwanted law enforcement/DA attention.


Sorry, youíre wrong. If someone breaks into your home, and you are inside, you have the right to use deadly force to end the encounter. California actually has a version of the castle doctrine.

CHAPTER 1. Homicide [187 - 199] ( Chapter 1 enacted 1872. )

198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Mulder View Post
Sorry, youíre wrong. If someone breaks into your home, and you are inside, you have the right to use deadly force to end the encounter. California actually has a version of the castle doctrine.

CHAPTER 1. Homicide [187 - 199] ( Chapter 1 enacted 1872. )

198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.
Good luck with that line on thought. A presumption is not a guarantee. 198.5 provides an affirmative defense not a get out of jail free card. Given the scenario posted by Chewy65, most people would have a hard time articulating a reasonable fear of great bodily injury from a unarmed 12 year old. Like has been posted numerous times you shoot because you have to, not because you can.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:21 AM
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Freakin guard geese! Now that is cool. And they can be angry little suckers.

Regardless of the law, I am not going outside the safety (relative) of my home to investigate anything. The only way I am going out is if my family was also outside and in danger. I would arm myself, retreat to a safe location, call 911, and let LE do their thing. If they force their way in prior to that, then that is another situation altogether.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:24 AM
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When in doubt, insure the risk. The DA will bury you in legal fees and bail costs forcing you to tap out to a bad plea deal. There are many insurance policies that cover legal fees, bail money, civil defense up front, even if you lose.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fox Mulder View Post
Sorry, you’re wrong. If someone breaks into your home, and you are inside, you have the right to use deadly force to end the encounter. California actually has a version of the castle doctrine.

CHAPTER 1. Homicide [187 - 199] ( Chapter 1 enacted 1872. )

198.5.
Any person using force intended or likely to cause death or great bodily injury within his or her residence shall be presumed to have held a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily injury to self, family, or a member of the household when that force is used against another person, not a member of the family or household, who unlawfully and forcibly enters or has unlawfully and forcibly entered the residence and the person using the force knew or had reason to believe that an unlawful and forcible entry occurred.
As used in this section, great bodily injury means a significant or substantial physical injury.

Fox,

Sorry, but Chewy was right on point with this one, and you seem to be mistaken.

There are several shortcomings in your view of Penal Code section 198.5:

1) As Chewy has pointed out, PC 198.5 only creates a legal presumption. It does not give you the right to use deadly force (you already have the right to use deadly force against a person who you reasonably believe is imminently threating your life). The question of reasonable fear still remains. All that 198.5 does is to put the cards in your favor at the beginning. It's a rebuttable presumption. The DDA can still show that you did not possess a reasonable fear and obtain a conviction. I'm aware of one trial case where that occurred.

2) PC 198.5 falls short of being a "Castle Doctrine." Castle Doctrine laws are intended to provide legal protection to folks who are required to use force to protect themselves. PC 198.5 provides a pretty good level of protection against criminal charges. It provides no protection against civil lawsuit.

3) PC 198.5 does nothing to stop you from being criminally charged. It only creates a presumption on one element of your trial.

4) PC 198.5 only applies to an intruder who has forcibly (as you have noted) enters your home and who is not a family member.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotASnowFlake View Post
Let's say the same scenario happened, where a perp opened the side gate to my house and tried gaining access to my house. But unlike my neighbor, I heard the side gate opening and him trying to gain access into my house. Would it be okay to pull out my firearm and look at what is going on, from the front of the house(blocking his exit point), so that he can't run away? Would brandishing my firearm in this case, be ok or no?
Here are some thoughts. This is not legal opinion, just thoughts:

1. You are now outside the gated/fenced portion of your property. Your front yard is open to the public, and is considered a public place. You are now carrying a loaded firearm in a public place, potentially violating PEN 25850.
(See the Wiki at: http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/in...ublic_Place.22)
Quote:
(a) A person is guilty of carrying a loaded firearm when the person carries a loaded firearm on the person or in a vehicle while in any public place or on any public street in an incorporated city or in any public place or on any public street in a prohibited area of unincorporated territory.
2. The "perp" is leaving. You have knowingly put yourself in harms way, creating the basis for potential conflict. This seems to greatly diminishe your claim to self-defense. Without a solid self-defense basis, the Penal Code section governing "brandishing" seems to abandon you. (http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...sectionNum=417)

PEN 417:
Quote:
(a)(2) Every person who, except in self-defense, in the presence of any other person, draws or exhibits any firearm, whether loaded or unloaded, in a rude, angry, or threatening manner, or who in any manner, unlawfully uses a firearm in any fight or quarrel is punishable as follows:
3. At this point, since the "perp" is in a public place, and you are blocking his path, you are arguably violating his Constitutionally-guaranteed right to travel. .

4. Since you have pulled a gun in a public place, and you are blocking his path, the "perp" may now fear for his life and defend himself and shoot you. ("I don't get it, officer, I was just walking down the street and this guy ran out waving a gun at me. Now, I'm really upset and confused, so I think I'd like to speak with an attorney before we talk more.")

In sum, this seems like a poor choice of action.

Stay inside, call the cops, observe, report.
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Old 12-07-2017, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobG View Post
Freakin guard geese! Now that is cool. And they can be angry little suckers.

Regardless of the law, I am not going outside the safety (relative) of my home to investigate anything. The only way I am going out is if my family was also outside and in danger. I would arm myself, retreat to a safe location, call 911, and let LE do their thing. If they force their way in prior to that, then that is another situation altogether.
I too would stay inside if I actually knew someone was outside trying to get in. On the other hand, I do go outside to check on noises, etc on a regular basis. I'd rather check it out and get back to sleep than sit there awake listening for 10+ min untill I felt comfortable going back to sleep. So far the noise has only once been an actual intruder and they took off as soon as I turned on the light.

I will also say I don't believe in sneaking up on an intruder. I hit the lights and make plenty of noise. I think the odds of scaring off a petty burglar vastly outweigh the minuscule chance someone is actually intending on killing me. I don't have any enemies, nor piles of gold bars in my closet.
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Old 12-07-2017, 11:40 AM
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I would first secure my firearm and round up my family. The next thing you should do is call 911, report the criminal and then hand the phone to a family member. At that point you could go to the entry point and prepare to defend your home.

Here are a couple links describing California's pertinent laws :

https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2013/07/22...in-california/

https://www.shouselaw.com/self-defense.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castle_doctrine

I think from those links, it is pretty clear, if you are inside your house, the presumption is that the intruder is a clear threat to your life and your family.

Of course, if you are a LEO, just walk up to the guy, start screaming "Quit Resisting" and then plug them a couple times, the jury will let you off in every instance.
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Old 12-07-2017, 4:47 PM
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Someone didn't read the earlier posts and being new to Calguns is unaware that this subject has been covered time after time and his opinion is flat wrong, as is that of the OP's in post 1.
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  #36  
Old 12-07-2017, 5:30 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bt Doctur View Post
From here I can see his weapon so the shoot is justfied self defense, you were in fear of your life when he attacked you.
Re-read the OP.
1. No weapon mentioned. You go to jail.
2. No entry to the house. You go to jail.
3. No attack. You go to jail.

See the trend?
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  #37  
Old 12-07-2017, 5:31 PM
Dvrjon Dvrjon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanBoals View Post
Of course, if you are a LEO, just walk up to the guy, start screaming "Quit Resisting" and then plug them a couple times, the jury will let you off in every instance.
First post; This should go well.....
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  #38  
Old 12-07-2017, 5:44 PM
Chewy65 Chewy65 is offline
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First post under this user name.
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  #39  
Old 12-07-2017, 6:20 PM
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castgold castgold is offline
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If you have live geese and foie gras in the freezer, are they all counted towards a total bag limit, like spiny lobster?
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  #40  
Old 12-07-2017, 7:54 PM
cvigue cvigue is online now
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The problem solver:

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