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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 66 7.89%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 561 67.11%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 18 2.15%
I paid too much for my Membership! 39 4.67%
They will go out of business this year! 21 2.51%
Don't want anything to do with them! 131 15.67%
Voters: 836. You may not vote on this poll

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  #8801  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:11 AM
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AR15fan AR15fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
To their credit, I was allowed to do a reload technique Iím comfortable with and I believe is superior to their taught tactical reload. They called it the butterfly technique. You grab the new mag and position it in palm behind index finger. You eject old mag into palm in front of index finger so both mags are now in your hand, insert new mag into well, place old mag into pocket/belt while firing hand drops slide. When well practiced, I believe it to be a better technique for both speed and options (you can feel the weight of mags and decide not to reload for example).

He said they used to teach that method many years ago but stopped because it was harder to learn. Because they used to teach it, I was allowed to do it for credit on skills test. No one else on the line knew of the technique and I finished reloads stupid fast compared to the standard taught technique. I can understand the challenge with teaching that technique because without decent repetition, there is the higher chance of fumbling the mag grip/insertion and dropping a mag. For more learned shooters, I think itís worth a look into. While not a guarantee, the older instructors will probably allow it on skills test.

We had a gentleman in my last 4-day that used that technique - perhaps you?

The only caveat was that in order not to be considered late, after the reload, he had to place the old mag in his pocket and have his support hand back on the gun within the time period in order to have "completed" the action.
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  #8802  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:14 AM
Royal_Cake Royal_Cake is offline
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Don't you check for the Type 3 malfunction to determine whether you have to retain the magazine or not??


You can choose to retain or strip, but if you choose to strip I donít believe they make you check first. Although in that situation I would see the merit in it. I always retain so Iím not as familiar with the other method.
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  #8803  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
To their credit, I was allowed to do a reload technique I’m comfortable with and I believe is superior to their taught tactical reload. They called it the butterfly technique. You grab the new mag and position it in palm behind index finger. You eject old mag into palm in front of index finger so both mags are now in your hand, insert new mag into well, place old mag into pocket/belt while firing hand drops slide. When well practiced, I believe it to be a better technique for both speed and options (you can feel the weight of mags and decide not to reload for example).

He said they used to teach that method many years ago but stopped because it was harder to learn. Because they used to teach it, I was allowed to do it for credit on skills test. No one else on the line knew of the technique and I finished reloads stupid fast compared to the standard taught technique. I can understand the challenge with teaching that technique because without decent repetition, there is the higher chance of fumbling the mag grip/insertion and dropping a mag. For more learned shooters, I think it’s worth a look into. While not a guarantee, the older instructors will probably allow it on skills test.
It was taught and worked well for many, especially for single stacked magazines (1911s). However, as more women and children started taking classes (and really anyone with smaller hands), the "butterfly" technique is more problematic, especially for double-stacked magazines. The technique is allowed on the skills tests but is no longer taught.

In general, Front Sight teaches techniques that work for most people and most guns. For example, on Type 3s you really don't need to lock the slide back on a Glock (and other guns) since you can strip the magazine without doing so; however, that technique they use will work on most any gun with success. So there may very well be techniques that work better for you and your gun but those aren't taught in the general class (especially the beginning ones).
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  #8804  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
We had a gentleman in my last 4-day that used that technique - perhaps you?

The only caveat was that in order not to be considered late, after the reload, he had to place the old mag in his pocket and have his support hand back on the gun within the time period in order to have "completed" the action.
Not me - the last class I took was the skill builder in the Spring. When I took the 4D I went with their taught techniques, well, except for a modified isosceles.
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  #8805  
Old 12-06-2017, 3:59 PM
damon1272 damon1272 is offline
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Any Calgunners doing a 2 or 4 day defensive handgun class Dec 15-18?
Read through this thread, and this will be my first of many visits to frontsite.
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  #8806  
Old 12-06-2017, 5:48 PM
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Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
Any Calgunners doing a 2 or 4 day defensive handgun class Dec 15-18?
Read through this thread, and this will be my first of many visits to frontsite.
Welcome, you will have a great time. Dress in layers, the weather can be pretty variable in December.
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  #8807  
Old 12-06-2017, 10:08 PM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
You can choose to retain or strip, but if you choose to strip I donít believe they make you check first. Although in that situation I would see the merit in it. I always retain so Iím not as familiar with the other method.
Actually, you don't check if you retain.

The sequences are:

Check, lock, strip, rack, rack, rack, insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

or

Lock, retain, rack, rack, rack, re-insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

The purpose of checking before stripping is to ensure you have a mag available before you drop the one in the gun. Even though you may have started with a spare, it may not be there now (e.g. fell out while maneuvering or in a scuffle). You don't have to check if you don't want to, but to pass FS's type 3 malfunction clearance drill, you do (unless you retain).

Last edited by nszzya; 12-06-2017 at 10:56 PM..
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  #8808  
Old 12-07-2017, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Actually, you don't check if you retain.

The sequences are:

Check, lock, strip, rack, rack, rack, insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

or

Lock, retain, rack, rack, rack, re-insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

The purpose of checking before stripping is to ensure you have a mag available before you drop the one in the gun. Even though you may have started with a spare, it may not be there now (e.g. fell out while maneuvering or in a scuffle). You don't have to check if you don't want to, but to pass FS's type 3 malfunction clearance drill, you do (unless you retain).
Thanks for the summary.
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  #8809  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:00 AM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
The purpose of checking before stripping is to ensure you have a mag available before you drop the one in the gun. Even though you may have started with a spare, it may not be there now (e.g. fell out while maneuvering or in a scuffle). You don't have to check if you don't want to, but to pass FS's type 3 malfunction clearance drill, you do (unless you retain).
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes. The purpose of the Check is to give you more information about what your options are when you strip the mag.

Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)

The Advanced and Combat Master tests do not require a Check. Primarily to keep the Master's test consistent with past tests. Similarly in all of the Advance/Master's test malfunctions, you perform the trigger press/finger straight off the clock.

It is indeed possible to perform a Type III with a Check in 4 seconds, it just takes practice.
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  #8810  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes. The purpose of the Check is to give you more information about what your options are when you strip the mag.

Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)

The Advanced and Combat Master tests do not require a Check. Primarily to keep the Master's test consistent with past tests. Similarly in all of the Advance/Master's test malfunctions, you perform the trigger press/finger straight off the clock.

It is indeed possible to perform a Type III with a Check in 4 seconds, it just takes practice.
This!
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  #8811  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:31 PM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes...
Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)

It wasnít in my 4DDHG in May. Just sayiní




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  #8812  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:38 PM
kramynot kramynot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes. The purpose of the Check is to give you more information about what your options are when you strip the mag.

Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)
Also required in the Rifle classes. In the skill builder I took in Nov, the instructor stated many times that the check is required whether or not you are going to retain and that, for rifles at least, this was one of the primary reasons for an error on the type III.
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  #8813  
Old 12-07-2017, 12:47 PM
mej16489 mej16489 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
It wasnít in my 4DDHG in May. Just sayiní
There was probably either a misunderstanding or someone didn't properly understand the details of the curriculum they are teaching. Both happen fairly regularly.

Frankly, its almost impossible to catch someone 'not checking' as it is completely legit to 'check with your week-hand elbow'

...incase anyone cares, I do both; check with my elbow and retain.
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  #8814  
Old 12-07-2017, 4:44 PM
NorthBay Shooter NorthBay Shooter is offline
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I have also had them say in the 4 day or skill builder you had to check regardless. Then in advanced tactical or HCMP you don't have to check. The first time I had to do it without checking in advanced, it screwed me up and slowed me down. Also for me, as I believe for most of us that have DG'ed the lower classes, the look, move, check aspect of a type three all happen at the same time. As in, my support hand or elbow goes back as I tilt the gun up to look and step to the right (or left).
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  #8815  
Old 12-07-2017, 5:42 PM
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I never checked once on any of the malfunction drills on the two day skill builder and still DGíd with a perfect score. If you show your proficient and can repeat all steps they donít hassle you much


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