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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 69 7.89%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 592 67.66%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 19 2.17%
I paid too much for my Membership! 40 4.57%
They will go out of business this year! 21 2.40%
Don't want anything to do with them! 134 15.31%
Voters: 875. You may not vote on this poll

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  #8801  
Old 12-04-2017, 9:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
To their credit, I was allowed to do a reload technique Iím comfortable with and I believe is superior to their taught tactical reload. They called it the butterfly technique. You grab the new mag and position it in palm behind index finger. You eject old mag into palm in front of index finger so both mags are now in your hand, insert new mag into well, place old mag into pocket/belt while firing hand drops slide. When well practiced, I believe it to be a better technique for both speed and options (you can feel the weight of mags and decide not to reload for example).

He said they used to teach that method many years ago but stopped because it was harder to learn. Because they used to teach it, I was allowed to do it for credit on skills test. No one else on the line knew of the technique and I finished reloads stupid fast compared to the standard taught technique. I can understand the challenge with teaching that technique because without decent repetition, there is the higher chance of fumbling the mag grip/insertion and dropping a mag. For more learned shooters, I think itís worth a look into. While not a guarantee, the older instructors will probably allow it on skills test.

We had a gentleman in my last 4-day that used that technique - perhaps you?

The only caveat was that in order not to be considered late, after the reload, he had to place the old mag in his pocket and have his support hand back on the gun within the time period in order to have "completed" the action.
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  #8802  
Old 12-04-2017, 9:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post
Don't you check for the Type 3 malfunction to determine whether you have to retain the magazine or not??


You can choose to retain or strip, but if you choose to strip I donít believe they make you check first. Although in that situation I would see the merit in it. I always retain so Iím not as familiar with the other method.
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  #8803  
Old 12-04-2017, 9:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
To their credit, I was allowed to do a reload technique I’m comfortable with and I believe is superior to their taught tactical reload. They called it the butterfly technique. You grab the new mag and position it in palm behind index finger. You eject old mag into palm in front of index finger so both mags are now in your hand, insert new mag into well, place old mag into pocket/belt while firing hand drops slide. When well practiced, I believe it to be a better technique for both speed and options (you can feel the weight of mags and decide not to reload for example).

He said they used to teach that method many years ago but stopped because it was harder to learn. Because they used to teach it, I was allowed to do it for credit on skills test. No one else on the line knew of the technique and I finished reloads stupid fast compared to the standard taught technique. I can understand the challenge with teaching that technique because without decent repetition, there is the higher chance of fumbling the mag grip/insertion and dropping a mag. For more learned shooters, I think it’s worth a look into. While not a guarantee, the older instructors will probably allow it on skills test.
It was taught and worked well for many, especially for single stacked magazines (1911s). However, as more women and children started taking classes (and really anyone with smaller hands), the "butterfly" technique is more problematic, especially for double-stacked magazines. The technique is allowed on the skills tests but is no longer taught.

In general, Front Sight teaches techniques that work for most people and most guns. For example, on Type 3s you really don't need to lock the slide back on a Glock (and other guns) since you can strip the magazine without doing so; however, that technique they use will work on most any gun with success. So there may very well be techniques that work better for you and your gun but those aren't taught in the general class (especially the beginning ones).
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  #8804  
Old 12-04-2017, 9:23 AM
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Originally Posted by AR15fan View Post
We had a gentleman in my last 4-day that used that technique - perhaps you?

The only caveat was that in order not to be considered late, after the reload, he had to place the old mag in his pocket and have his support hand back on the gun within the time period in order to have "completed" the action.
Not me - the last class I took was the skill builder in the Spring. When I took the 4D I went with their taught techniques, well, except for a modified isosceles.
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  #8805  
Old 12-06-2017, 2:59 PM
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Any Calgunners doing a 2 or 4 day defensive handgun class Dec 15-18?
Read through this thread, and this will be my first of many visits to frontsite.
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  #8806  
Old 12-06-2017, 4:48 PM
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Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
Any Calgunners doing a 2 or 4 day defensive handgun class Dec 15-18?
Read through this thread, and this will be my first of many visits to frontsite.
Welcome, you will have a great time. Dress in layers, the weather can be pretty variable in December.
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  #8807  
Old 12-06-2017, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
You can choose to retain or strip, but if you choose to strip I donít believe they make you check first. Although in that situation I would see the merit in it. I always retain so Iím not as familiar with the other method.
Actually, you don't check if you retain.

The sequences are:

Check, lock, strip, rack, rack, rack, insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

or

Lock, retain, rack, rack, rack, re-insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

The purpose of checking before stripping is to ensure you have a mag available before you drop the one in the gun. Even though you may have started with a spare, it may not be there now (e.g. fell out while maneuvering or in a scuffle). You don't have to check if you don't want to, but to pass FS's type 3 malfunction clearance drill, you do (unless you retain).

Last edited by nszzya; 12-06-2017 at 9:56 PM..
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  #8808  
Old 12-07-2017, 8:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Actually, you don't check if you retain.

The sequences are:

Check, lock, strip, rack, rack, rack, insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

or

Lock, retain, rack, rack, rack, re-insert, rack, back on target, back on trigger, decide to fire or not.

The purpose of checking before stripping is to ensure you have a mag available before you drop the one in the gun. Even though you may have started with a spare, it may not be there now (e.g. fell out while maneuvering or in a scuffle). You don't have to check if you don't want to, but to pass FS's type 3 malfunction clearance drill, you do (unless you retain).
Thanks for the summary.
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  #8809  
Old 12-07-2017, 9:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
The purpose of checking before stripping is to ensure you have a mag available before you drop the one in the gun. Even though you may have started with a spare, it may not be there now (e.g. fell out while maneuvering or in a scuffle). You don't have to check if you don't want to, but to pass FS's type 3 malfunction clearance drill, you do (unless you retain).
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes. The purpose of the Check is to give you more information about what your options are when you strip the mag.

Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)

The Advanced and Combat Master tests do not require a Check. Primarily to keep the Master's test consistent with past tests. Similarly in all of the Advance/Master's test malfunctions, you perform the trigger press/finger straight off the clock.

It is indeed possible to perform a Type III with a Check in 4 seconds, it just takes practice.
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  #8810  
Old 12-07-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes. The purpose of the Check is to give you more information about what your options are when you strip the mag.

Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)

The Advanced and Combat Master tests do not require a Check. Primarily to keep the Master's test consistent with past tests. Similarly in all of the Advance/Master's test malfunctions, you perform the trigger press/finger straight off the clock.

It is indeed possible to perform a Type III with a Check in 4 seconds, it just takes practice.
This!
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  #8811  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes...
Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)

It wasnít in my 4DDHG in May. Just sayiní




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  #8812  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mej16489 View Post
The Check is always required on a Type III malfunction in the Defensive Handgun classes. The purpose of the Check is to give you more information about what your options are when you strip the mag.

Failure to Check is a procedural error (regardless of drop or retain)
Also required in the Rifle classes. In the skill builder I took in Nov, the instructor stated many times that the check is required whether or not you are going to retain and that, for rifles at least, this was one of the primary reasons for an error on the type III.
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  #8813  
Old 12-07-2017, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
It wasnít in my 4DDHG in May. Just sayiní
There was probably either a misunderstanding or someone didn't properly understand the details of the curriculum they are teaching. Both happen fairly regularly.

Frankly, its almost impossible to catch someone 'not checking' as it is completely legit to 'check with your week-hand elbow'

...incase anyone cares, I do both; check with my elbow and retain.
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  #8814  
Old 12-07-2017, 3:44 PM
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I have also had them say in the 4 day or skill builder you had to check regardless. Then in advanced tactical or HCMP you don't have to check. The first time I had to do it without checking in advanced, it screwed me up and slowed me down. Also for me, as I believe for most of us that have DG'ed the lower classes, the look, move, check aspect of a type three all happen at the same time. As in, my support hand or elbow goes back as I tilt the gun up to look and step to the right (or left).
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  #8815  
Old 12-07-2017, 4:42 PM
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I never checked once on any of the malfunction drills on the two day skill builder and still DGíd with a perfect score. If you show your proficient and can repeat all steps they donít hassle you much


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  #8816  
Old 12-18-2017, 9:52 PM
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I rarely get emails from Iggy.

What are the current deals being offered?
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  #8817  
Old 12-20-2017, 10:36 AM
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Default Front Sight 2018 Courses

New Tactical Awareness 1 Day Course -No prerequisite

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  #8818  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:05 PM
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New Tactical Awareness 1 Day Course -No prerequisite
Ugggh, all day in the classroom?
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  #8819  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:28 PM
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So I just completed a 4 day defensive handgun course. For all the knocks I have read about frontsight I didnít experience it. Yes they teach weaver but if someone chose differently and it worked they didnít hassle the student. Overall extremely please. Looking to do a skill builder or tactical handgun in March. Probably skill builder as I have bad habits to unlearn. Overall impressed and had a great time.
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  #8820  
Old 12-20-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
So I just completed a 4 day defensive handgun course. For all the knocks I have read about frontsight I didnít experience it. Yes they teach weaver but if someone chose differently and it worked they didnít hassle the student. Overall extremely please. Looking to do a skill builder or tactical handgun in March. Probably skill builder as I have bad habits to unlearn. Overall impressed and had a great time.
Your experience has also been mine. I'm please with my free membership and $50 background check per year!

Also - I'll be doing 1/31 to 2/1 Handgun Skill Builder and then the 2/2 to 2/3 Advanced Tactical Handgun - should anyone desire to join!
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  #8821  
Old 12-20-2017, 2:02 PM
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I am really looking forward to taking the "NEW" Advanced Tactical Handgun sometime in the next few months.

The "Original" Advanced Tactical Handgun classes used to be awesome. I took my first one back in June 2003, and used to take it 2-3 times per year.

Having talked to some of the instructors recently, I believe that they are trying to get back to some of the training/drills from that era....

Great addition to the schedule!
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  #8822  
Old 12-20-2017, 2:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
I am really looking forward to taking the "NEW" Advanced Tactical Handgun sometime in the next few months.

The "Original" Advanced Tactical Handgun classes used to be awesome. I took my first one back in June 2003, and used to take it 2-3 times per year.

Having talked to some of the instructors recently, I believe that they are trying to get back to some of the training/drills from that era....

Great addition to the schedule!
That is awesome. I might see you at one of those classes.
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  #8823  
Old 12-20-2017, 6:28 PM
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I'm looking forward to doing the stacked handgun courses in January. Handgun SB (1/3), Tactical Handgun (1/5), then I'll finish it out with the new Advanced Tactical Handgun (1/7) course. Six straight days of shooting a 1911... Yeahhhhhh
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  #8824  
Old 12-20-2017, 6:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Paseclipse View Post
I'm looking forward to doing the stacked handgun courses in January. Handgun SB (1/3), Tactical Handgun (1/5), then I'll finish it out with the new Advanced Tactical Handgun (1/7) course. Six straight days of shooting a 1911... Yeahhhhhh
Do you have to DG each of those to move on to the next?
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  #8825  
Old 12-20-2017, 7:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ColdDeadHands1 View Post
Do you have to DG each of those to move on to the next?
The prerequisite for Tactical Handgun is a G or DG in a Skill Builder or 4 day Handgun course, and the prerequisites for Advanced Tactical Handgun is attendance in Tactical Handgun and DG in a Skill Builder or 4 day handgun course. Since I've DG'ed almost everything at Front Sight I had no issues signing up for all the courses.

I'm really looking forward seeing how both Tactical Handgun courses have changed and what material has been added. Before FS added the test the focus was more on just shooting and learning new techniques rather than passing a test.
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  #8826  
Old 12-20-2017, 9:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Paseclipse View Post
I'm looking forward to doing the stacked handgun courses in January. Handgun SB (1/3), Tactical Handgun (1/5), then I'll finish it out with the new Advanced Tactical Handgun (1/7) course. Six straight days of shooting a 1911... Yeahhhhhh
Prepare to freeze your butt off. It was 23 the other morning. Thank God I had layers and it did warm up some but the wind was brutal on the third day. I am thinking March at this point.
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  #8827  
Old 12-21-2017, 8:17 AM
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March - mid May is really nice weather out there.
The winds are always unpredictable but the temps usually cooperate

Paseclipse, can't wait to hear your thoughts on the classes. I probably won't get to take the Adv Tactical until June so it'll be hear some feedback.
Am I safe to assume if I took the previous Adv Tactical that I can jump right into the new Adv Tactical without having to take the normal Tactical again?
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  #8828  
Old 12-21-2017, 9:22 AM
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Has anyone tried to register for a course within the two week window before the course starts? If so, were you successful and what was the cost (mentioned on the FS website)?

Also, has anyone had to cancel a course and encountered any issues?
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  #8829  
Old 12-21-2017, 9:26 AM
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Has anyone tried to register for a course within the two week window before the course starts? If so, were you successful and what was the cost (mentioned on the FS website)?

Also, has anyone had to cancel a course and encountered any issues?
I have done it within 9 days. Cost was $100

Cancellations last minute have been no charge.
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  #8830  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:18 AM
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  #8831  
Old 12-21-2017, 10:18 AM
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More info on the new Tactical Handgun and Advanced Tactical Handgun courses!

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  #8832  
Old 12-21-2017, 1:21 PM
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I have done it within 9 days. Cost was $100

Cancellations last minute have been no charge.
Thanks AR!
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  #8833  
Old 12-21-2017, 2:27 PM
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Did the 2-day handgun skills builder last Friday and Saturday. Front Sight facilities were pretty full. We had 31 in our class. I came alone and was the odd guy without a partner. They let me shot both groups 1 and 2 the first day. It was really fun. Had to reload at every opportunity. The second day was only allowed to shoot 1 of the 2 groups. The range master told the shooters that on the second day people needed to pace themselves. (he was looking at me ).

Shot the best 1-ragged hole drill with all 4 completely inside the square. Best I've ever done. The exam preshoot was my worst though. I was bummed.

I shot great in the test and DG'ed down 8 on shooting and missed nothing in non-shooting skills (loading and malfunctions). It was windy and cold for the testing. I and one other guy DG'ed if I remember. First time for me but have 2 14 down before. Those are bummers. I shot a Glock 19 with iron sights.

Have signed up for the Two day Adv. Tact midweek end of Jan. Plan to take the Two day advanced tactical end of February. Looking forward to the fun.

Last edited by surferbum; 12-21-2017 at 2:30 PM..
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  #8834  
Old 12-22-2017, 6:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surferbum View Post
Did the 2-day handgun skills builder last Friday and Saturday. Front Sight facilities were pretty full. We had 31 in our class. I came alone and was the odd guy without a partner. They let me shot both groups 1 and 2 the first day. It was really fun. Had to reload at every opportunity. The second day was only allowed to shoot 1 of the 2 groups. The range master told the shooters that on the second day people needed to pace themselves. (he was looking at me ).

Shot the best 1-ragged hole drill with all 4 completely inside the square. Best I've ever done. The exam preshoot was my worst though. I was bummed.

I shot great in the test and DG'ed down 8 on shooting and missed nothing in non-shooting skills (loading and malfunctions). It was windy and cold for the testing. I and one other guy DG'ed if I remember. First time for me but have 2 14 down before. Those are bummers. I shot a Glock 19 with iron sights.

Have signed up for the Two day Adv. Tact midweek end of Jan. Plan to take the Two day advanced tactical end of February. Looking forward to the fun.


Was there last weekend for the skill builder also - wind and cold on Saturday sucked! Seems like thatís how it always goes for me though. Haha.
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  #8835  
Old 12-22-2017, 6:41 PM
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I took the last "old" Advanced Tactical in December, and am signed up for both the Tactical (5,6 Jan) and Adv tactical (7,8 Jan), so I'll write up a review of old vs. new and post it here once I've completed.

Did a 4 day private this week (Monday-Thursday); was great! Worked on pistol on Range 5 on day 1, then on rifle (and a bit of trying out my new jm pro 930 shotgun) on 2-4 on Range 24. Was really fun doing a private class with a suppressed X95. Wind really sucked on the afternoon of day 3 and all day day 4, and I'm not yet up to DG Rifle standard, but will go out with polypro underwear and a hood next time after working on some consistency of presentation and should be able to nail it. (I had both RM Plate and Ciacchi for my private; was great having two very competent RMs working with me. If you can afford it, the President upgrade is actually worth it IMO if you can head out to front sight 6+ times/year)
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  #8836  
Old 12-22-2017, 7:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdl View Post
I took the last "old" Advanced Tactical in December, and am signed up for both the Tactical (5,6 Jan) and Adv tactical (7,8 Jan), so I'll write up a review of old vs. new and post it here once I've completed.

Did a 4 day private this week (Monday-Thursday); was great! Worked on pistol on Range 5 on day 1, then on rifle (and a bit of trying out my new jm pro 930 shotgun) on 2-4 on Range 24. Was really fun doing a private class with a suppressed X95. Wind really sucked on the afternoon of day 3 and all day day 4, and I'm not yet up to DG Rifle standard, but will go out with polypro underwear and a hood next time after working on some consistency of presentation and should be able to nail it. (I had both RM Plate and Ciacchi for my private; was great having two very competent RMs working with me. If you can afford it, the President upgrade is actually worth it IMO if you can head out to front sight 6+ times/year)


Very cool. Iíve scheduled three for next year and I canít wait to see what itís like.
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  #8837  
Old 12-23-2017, 9:11 AM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Are there skills tests for both the Tactical and Advanced Tactical Handgun classes now? If so, has anyone seen the requirements?
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  #8838  
Old 12-23-2017, 9:22 AM
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Jedi54 Jedi54 is offline
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Don't believe there's a test for the Tactical
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  #8839  
Old 12-23-2017, 11:12 AM
nszzya nszzya is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
Don't believe there's a test for the Tactical
Thanks!
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  #8840  
Old 12-24-2017, 8:13 AM
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acegunnr acegunnr is offline
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Merry Christmas!

Who else got free credits deposited into their account?

Can't wait for next big announcement next Tuesday!

Lol

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
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