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  #1  
Old 09-03-2018, 8:50 PM
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Default C&R list

I was going over the ATF C&R list today and I'm baffled!

Is this:

Phoenix, (U.S.A.), pistol, cal. .25 ACP

This:

https://www.phoenix-arms.com/pages/hp25a


How this happen? And we don't have Bulgarian Makarovs or other pistols that have more historical significance on the list.
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  #2  
Old 09-03-2018, 9:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie1965 View Post
I was going over the ATF C&R list today and I'm baffled!

Is this:

Phoenix, (U.S.A.), pistol, cal. .25 ACP

This:

https://www.phoenix-arms.com/pages/hp25a


How this happen? And we don't have Bulgarian Makarovs or other pistols that have more historical significance on the list.
Only quote I can think of: "It's the government, it doesn't have to make sense!"
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  #3  
Old 09-03-2018, 9:13 PM
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^ agree. Gun laws that are logical & consistent is asking too much. Although I must ask what is so historically significant about Bulgarian Maks. AFAIK they were still made until the late 70s or early 80s, but that's the limit of my knowledge of them (and even that may be incorrect)
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  #4  
Old 09-03-2018, 9:18 PM
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There has to be something else lol
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  #5  
Old 09-03-2018, 9:23 PM
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https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Melio...elior1911.html

The Melior 1911 .25 acp pocket pistol was imported under the name Phoenix or Phoenix Arms .25 acp

Mystory solved lol
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  #6  
Old 09-03-2018, 9:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Melio...elior1911.html

The Melior 1911 .25 acp pocket pistol was imported under the name Phoenix or Phoenix Arms .25 acp

Mystory solved lol
Ok, that makes sense.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2018, 5:55 AM
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Not the same gun. The Phoenix 25 on the c&R list refers only to the Saturday Nite Special/Ring-of-Fire mouse gun produced from the late 60's to the 1980's

The Phoenix .25 auto on the C&R list is just a later version of the Raven Arms P and MP .25 auto. In the same family (literally) of guns as the Bryco, Jennings and Jimenez mouse guns.

Here is the C&R Phoenix .25: https://goo.gl/images/gvsD5g

Last edited by boris badinov; 09-04-2018 at 6:49 AM..
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2018, 6:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
https://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/Melio...elior1911.html

The Melior 1911 .25 acp pocket pistol was imported under the name Phoenix or Phoenix Arms .25 acp
Mystory solved lol
This is incorrect. The Melior 1911 is C&R by virtue of it's age (50+ yrs or older), and is therefore not required to be listed.

The BATF C&R list specifically refers to the American made gun "Phoenix, (U.S.A.), pistol, caliber .25 ACP."

The Phoenix 25 was granted C&R prior to fullifilment of the 50+year requirement, and therefore appears on the list.
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Old 09-04-2018, 6:55 AM
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Well I believe you’re probably right on your first post but the reasoning it’s over 50 doesn’t make sense. There are lots of items on the list that are over 50.

I haven’t ran into a ring Of fire gun called Phoenix but I believe you. They changed names 100 times and most of the ring of Fire companies were one family changing names for fincaial and legal reasons. Hell, those guns are one of the direct excuses for needing the CA roster of safe firearms. Lol
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  #10  
Old 09-04-2018, 6:56 AM
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I was positive it wasn’t the modern Phoenix Arms. To believe the ATF is THAT incompetent would be a stretch
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  #11  
Old 09-04-2018, 7:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcheung2 View Post
Although I must ask what is so historically significant about Bulgarian Maks. AFAIK they were still made until the late 70s or early 80s, but that's the limit of my knowledge of them (and even that may be incorrect)
Probably similar collector interest to the on-the-C&R-list CZ-82, which entered service in 1982.
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  #12  
Old 09-04-2018, 7:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
Well I believe you’re probably right on your first post but the reasoning it’s over 50 doesn’t make sense. There are lots of items on the list that are over 50.

I haven’t ran into a ring Of fire gun called Phoenix but I believe you. They changed names 100 times and most of the ring of Fire companies were one family changing names for fincaial and legal reasons. Hell, those guns are one of the direct excuses for needing the CA roster of safe firearms. Lol
ANY firearm over 50 years old is, by virtue of its age, eligible for C&R status. Though there may be other issues (import bans, or type of firearm) that prevent purchase. These 50+ year old guns are not required to be listed, but many are indeed on the list. Many of them were added to the list prior to their 50year requirement. While many others were added for dealer and consumer clarity.

There was a similar discussion on another forum, (I think sksboards), with several response letters on the subject that came directly from the ATF. The gist of the ATF employee who responded was that the ATF doesn't really do a whole lot of editing to the list-- just updates. (Lack of editing is evident as well in the various identical typos that continue to appear with each new update). There are simply too many guns to constantly be removing guns from the list as they turn the 50 year corner.

Essentially, for decades now, the only firearms being added to the list are those that have not yet cleared the 50 year requirement. Such guns are added to the list via written appeas from "curating" experts on the grounds of historical significance. These are added for seller and dealer clarity in order to stay compliant with the laws.

As it reads on the BATF C&R web page, the appeal for C&R status, thoughtedious, is a fairly straightforward and simple process. That is if you have a "curator" to validate the request.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics
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  #13  
Old 09-04-2018, 7:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post

I haven’t ran into a ring Of fire gun called Phoenix ....
Phoenix25:



And its precursor the Raven MP25 (these are from my collection):


Last edited by boris badinov; 09-04-2018 at 8:11 AM..
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  #14  
Old 09-04-2018, 7:37 AM
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I take it back I have sold a Phoenix or two. Good to know they are listed. There are lots of guns that are on there that you wouldn’t expect.


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  #15  
Old 09-05-2018, 1:26 AM
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Isn't the Phoenix Arms HP25 still in production or just the HP22? Could the HP25 be considered C&R? Actually some of the ring of fire type guns are getting to be close to 50 years old Raven/Phoenix was founded around 1971 or 1972.

There actually is rare ring of fire guns most don't being huge bucks. Like the Sedco version of the Jennings J-22 or the Jennings Junior rifle or the Sundance Point Blank.
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  #16  
Old 09-05-2018, 6:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I Swan View Post
Isn't the Phoenix Arms HP25 still in production or just the HP22? Could the HP25 be considered C&R? Actually some of the ring of fire type guns are getting to be close to 50 years old Raven/Phoenix was founded around 1971 or 1972.

There actually is rare ring of fire guns most don't being huge bucks. Like the Sedco version of the Jennings J-22 or the Jennings Junior rifle or the Sundance Point Blank.

Yes, It appears to be still in production.

Here are the BATF requirements for C&R status:

1.Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas of such firearms;

2.Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and

3.Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event.


My guess would be, NO. Not as a Relic, obviously. And no significant characteristics required for a Curio.
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  #17  
Old 09-08-2018, 5:52 PM
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Reiterating here,

If you read on the link provided before you will see that 50 years is an automatic date to be C&R but what qualifies isnt limited to that.

As the link says, the List is more of a guide because items that qualify as C&R dont have to be on the list to be valid. And the public can send in a weapon for examination if its believed it should be included as a C&R classification.

And.....to re-clarify a very old question, if the C&R is also NFA, then NFA rules apply.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios-relics

The laws are very complicated to read but you download the whole thing by googling " 27 CFR §478.11 " Its no wonder so many dealers and sellers dont know what they are doing, reading this surely gives headaches as you try to navigate the maze. I have the law in an expanded form but here is the gist of it.
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...1.2.3&rgn=div5
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  #18  
Old 09-08-2018, 5:57 PM
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Unless it’s section III NFA removed***
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  #19  
Old 09-09-2018, 1:05 PM
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Lots of cool stuff in section III
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