Unprofessional, Dangerous Training?

[SuperSet]

I thought for sure this would be a 1911 or Serpa joke.

[psi]

Alrighty then, my name is Stepan Generalov and I attended this exact class.
I don't remember anything like ND happening.

At the end of the class all students gathered around and instructors asked us a question: "Did you learn something during the class?" or something along these lines, that was the time to ask for a refund, I suppose. Nobody complained. We spent like 20-30 minutes talking about what new we have learned or what was productive, IIRC -EVERY student said something, nobody was dissatisfied.

I have some photos/videos from the class & list of students emails, it's possible that I could help to figure out if this is reported by actual student or not.

[kayaker55]

Yeager posted this statement on his Facebook page today. Can you see it
coming ? His fanboys are already defending the "mistake."

"I will make a full statement next week concerning one of my staff having an ND at a class. Thankfully no one was injured.
“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt 1910

[kayaker55]

Originally Posted by psi

Alrighty then, my name is Stepan Generalov and I attended this exact class.
I don't remember anything like ND happening.

At the end of the class all students gathered around and instructors asked us a question: "Did you learn something during the class?" or something along these lines, that was the time to ask for a refund, I suppose. Nobody complained. We spent like 20-30 minutes talking about what new we have learned or what was productive, IIRC -EVERY student said something, nobody was dissatisfied.

I have some photos/videos from the class & list of students emails, it's possible that I could help to figure out if this is reported by actual student or not.

I guess Yeager has a better memory than you. See his "statement" above. He admits there was an ND.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by fuenstock

Out of curiosity, does anyone know what handgun make and model was it that fired when stomped on?

It was a Sig Sauer. I don't know the exact model, but it was a DA/SA type.

[Rastoff]

Originally Posted by psi

Alrighty then, my name is Stepan Generalov and I attended this exact class.
I don't remember anything like ND happening.

Are you sure it was the same class? Where did you attend? What range was it?

Also, this happened in the parking lot, not on the range. I was under the impression it happened before day two so, it's possible that you just were there when it happened.

[psi]

Super sure, last range - #11, and there wasn't any weapon handling on a parking lot. I don't really remember ending of day one, but day 2 - I was there before lecture started & left with 2 hosts & TR instructors - we went to get a dinner. Hosts were absolutely cool with instructors, nobody mentioned any banning or what not.

Even more - on next day there was a Fighting Rifle - would they allow it, if they have banned TR prior?

[SuperSet]

I know someone who witnessed the event also and based on Rastoff's post, he knows some of the same details too.

[R01]

Originally Posted by psi

Super sure, last range - #11, and there wasn't any weapon handling on a parking lot. I don't really remember ending of day one, but day 2 - I was there before lecture started & left with 2 hosts & TR instructors - we went to get a dinner. Hosts were absolutely cool with instructors, nobody mentioned any banning or what not.

Even more - on next day there was a Fighting Rifle - would they allow it, if they have banned TR prior?

[DSB]

Originally Posted by Vu 308

Wow! 2300+ views. I won't keep any of you waiting any longer.

A negligent discharge did occur the morning of February 18th during Day 2 of a pistol course instructed by Tactical Response on Range 11 (200yrd Bay), outside of what we would considered the shooting area.

This incident was not reported to any of our range staff at the time. Our operations manager (Mike Calvo) was made aware of the incident via an email from a concerned member of the club with family that took the TR course. I was immediately informed and instructed Mr. Calvo to proceed with an investigation.

I have personally talked to several participants at the course and one eye witness that observed the incident from beginning to end at close proximity.

We will not bother going into the fine details of the incident but the Board of Directors of Folsom Shooting Club has determined that Tactical Response will no longer be allowed to conduct any type of training at Sacramento Valley Shooting Center. This is effective immediately. An official email notifying Tactical Response is being sent as I post this reply.

FSC appreciates all that reached out with first hand knowledge of the incident.

Sincerely,

Vu Pham
FSC - President

Mr. Pham,

I really appreciate you posting this information and taking such swift action. You obviously run a very professional range, and you have demonstrated that safety is of the highest priority.

Members of the Folsom shooting community should feel good about using your facilities!

DSB

[Lead Waster]

Who stomps their tools?

[SuperSet]

P.J. says:
March 4, 2016 at 12:42
If past behavior is any indication, I’m sure we can expect a calm, reasoned response from Mr. Yeager shortly.

[rmorris7556]

I was at the range and in the class when the incident happened, this is the truth of the incident not some bull story that I have been reading.
It was during the early morning when everyone was arriving and meeting each other there were a couple of guys talking over by the bathroom which is away from the rest of the class, one of the instructors walked over and a discussion developed about the pistol draw so when the instructor drew the pistol it fell to the ground and he stepped on it as it was on the gravel a rock jammed into the trigger and the pistol discharged into a trucks tire deflating it. This was away from all personal at the range and away from the group that was discussing the draw period.

[psi]

@rmorris7556
Oh wow, didn't know that. That's some really bad ND.
Thank you for the explanation!

I can see rmorris email (or at least something that looks like his email) in the students mailing list, so I have no more reasons not to believe that this actually happened. Sorry if I confused anyone.

[MilitaryArms]

Originally Posted by psi

Alrighty then, my name is Stepan Generalov and I attended this exact class.
I don't remember anything like ND happening.

At the end of the class all students gathered around and instructors asked us a question: "Did you learn something during the class?" or something along these lines, that was the time to ask for a refund, I suppose. Nobody complained. We spent like 20-30 minutes talking about what new we have learned or what was productive, IIRC -EVERY student said something, nobody was dissatisfied.

I have some photos/videos from the class & list of students emails, it's possible that I could help to figure out if this is reported by actual student or not.

That's an interesting claim given the range has confirmed the incident by those that witnessed it first hand. Also, another student on BearingArms confirmed an accident happened and claimed this email was sent out to all attendees by James:

"Hello Alumni,

Well now that you have trained with us you are a part of our family…our big dysfunctional family. As I write this message I haven’t spoken with my crew that taught your Fighting Pistol class in Sacramento but I can still draw a conclusion. One of my instructors, [instructor name removed], did something that was not in our curriculum, was not authorized, was not allowed, is not condoned and was very reckless, dangerous and negligent. We are all very fortunate no person was injured.

People from your class are already telling this story on-line and, of course, as it turns from an eyewitness account into gossip the story will get more and more outlandish. One day it will be so preposterous you yourself will have to interject that you were there, and that is not what happened, and you will be scoffed at. Such is life… I thank those of you who have not gone on-line and bashed us.
Well, I certainly cannot take that errant round back but I can deal with the consequences. I can tell you that [instructor name removed] has never done anything like this before. It is still hard for me to believe he even did it! It is very unlike him but facts are facts. So I am left with what to do with [instructor name removed]. I simply cannot do “nothing” but what do you do with a devoted employee that has worked very hard to be good at his job that does a hair brained thing like this? It is even tougher when this knucklehead is my friend. We are a close knit team here at Tactical Response.

So I am left with the aftermath to sort through and clean up. I have to decide to fire a guy on his “first offense” or if I should suspend him or make him do remedial training. There are many wrong answers and no 100% right one. Any decision like this weighs heavily on my heart.

I will end with this – I GIVE YOU MY WORD that nothing like this will ever happen again in one of my classes and I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE to every student in that class for his unprofessional display. It was WRONG and will NEVER happen again.

James Yeager - MFCEO"

It would seem even James has confirmed something went down where a firearm was discharged unintentionally.

[CSACANNONEER]

Originally Posted by psi

Alrighty then, my name is Stepan Generalov and I attended this exact class.
I don't remember anything like ND happening.

At the end of the class all students gathered around and instructors asked us a question: "Did you learn something during the class?" or something along these lines, that was the time to ask for a refund, I suppose. Nobody complained. We spent like 20-30 minutes talking about what new we have learned or what was productive, IIRC -EVERY student said something, nobody was dissatisfied.

I have some photos/videos from the class & list of students emails, it's possible that I could help to figure out if this is reported by actual student or not.

Alrighty then, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you are one of their target demographic and your finely tuned situational awareness is typical for their students.

[Snerk]

This whole situation just feels, ahem,



I mean for starters, throwing your gun to the ground under the guise of "it's a tool?"

I worked as a professional mechanic. I used tools day in and day out. I never threw my tools on the ground, I treated them with respect because they earned me a paycheck. I kept them clean and organized. I can't imagine ever abusing my tools... nevermind ones that could kill people if mistreated.

[9mmepiphany]

Originally Posted by psi

Even more - on next day there was a Fighting Rifle - would they allow it, if they have banned TR prior?

Maybe because it wasn't reported?

[Atekhed]

Originally Posted by 9mmepiphany

Maybe because it wasn't reported?

And this is the thing I find almost as disturbing as the ND itself. It appears no one, instructor, host or student, in this class reported this incident to Sac Valley staff until nearly two weeks after the 6 days of TR classes concluded there. It took a CG member looking to verify the truth of this incident to even bring it to light.

[dennis1979gm]

I was at the class and about 15 feet from where the bullet impacted the storage shed. The gun used was a sig p320. It did not happen first thing in the morning as students were ariving. It happened at the first break from the morning lecture. The gun was drawn in a safe direction (down range) then was dropped to the ground. This was an ongoing crap talking session we had going on from the previous day with are group of 5 and this instructor about scratching a buddies gun. The instructor had stepped on it the day before when he dropped it on the line the day before, scratching it. This was all light hearted and no animosity but some good digs were being thrown back and forth. The instructor drew his gum trying to prove a point that guns are a tool in a safe direction. Then tossed it on the ground in the rocks that make up the parking area. Then he stepped on it and had the ND. The p320 has no type of trigger safety or hinge to prevent this. A rock hit just right as he stepped on it. The round went threw the left front tire of my buddy (same guy with scratched gun) and exited tire striking the tool shed door. Was this called for? Absolutely not. Was the instructor a good guy? Absolutely! I'm not here to bash TR I just don't like all the BS that is going around. Was it something that could have been prevented? Absolutely! WI'll it happen again? I seriously doubt it. No one was hit thank god! But I say take it for what it is. A lesson! Was I happy with the training? Yes. Will I take another TR course? Maybe. But I like to train with as many trainers as my budget allows to learn different tactics and styles. Should James have given my buddy a refund? I would think so bUT he did buy 2 new tires for his truck. Would I say beware of TR? No. They teach a good class and have great mind set they teach. Like I said not here to blast them only tell an un exaggerated FIRST hand account of what happened. Thanks

[AAShooter]

Supposedly sent out by Mr. Yeager to his students:

"Hello Alumni,

Well now that you have trained with us you are a part of our family…our big dysfunctional family. As I write this message I haven’t spoken with my crew that taught your Fighting Pistol class in Sacramento but I can still draw a conclusion. One of my instructors, [instructor name removed], did something that was not in our curriculum, was not authorized, was not allowed, is not condoned and was very reckless, dangerous and negligent. We are all very fortunate no person was injured.

People from your class are already telling this story on-line and, of course, as it turns from an eyewitness account into gossip the story will get more and more outlandish. One day it will be so preposterous you yourself will have to interject that you were there, and that is not what happened, and you will be scoffed at. Such is life… I thank those of you who have not gone on-line and bashed us.
Well, I certainly cannot take that errant round back but I can deal with the consequences. I can tell you that [instructor name removed] has never done anything like this before. It is still hard for me to believe he even did it! It is very unlike him but facts are facts. So I am left with what to do with [instructor name removed]. I simply cannot do “nothing” but what do you do with a devoted employee that has worked very hard to be good at his job that does a hair brained thing like this? It is even tougher when this knucklehead is my friend. We are a close knit team here at Tactical Response.

So I am left with the aftermath to sort through and clean up. I have to decide to fire a guy on his “first offense” or if I should suspend him or make him do remedial training. There are many wrong answers and no 100% right one. Any decision like this weighs heavily on my heart.

I will end with this – I GIVE YOU MY WORD that nothing like this will ever happen again in one of my classes and I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE to every student in that class for his unprofessional display. It was WRONG and will NEVER happen again.

James Yeager - MFCEO"

[racky]

Originally Posted by dennis1979gm

I was at the class and about 15 feet from where the bullet impacted the storage shed. The gun used was a sig p320. It did not happen first thing in the morning as students were ariving. It happened at the first break from the morning lecture. The gun was drawn in a safe direction (down range) then was dropped to the ground. This was an ongoing crap talking session we had going on from the previous day with are group of 5 and this instructor about scratching a buddies gun. The instructor had stepped on it the day before when he dropped it on the line the day before, scratching it. This was all light hearted and no animosity but some good digs were being thrown back and forth. The instructor drew his gum trying to prove a point that guns are a tool in a safe direction. Then tossed it on the ground in the rocks that make up the parking area. Then he stepped on it and had the ND. The p320 has no type of trigger safety or hinge to prevent this. A rock hit just right as he stepped on it. The round went threw the left front tire of my buddy (same guy with scratched gun) and exited tire striking the tool shed door. Was this called for? Absolutely not. Was the instructor a good guy? Absolutely! I'm not here to bash TR I just don't like all the BS that is going around. Was it something that could have been prevented? Absolutely! WI'll it happen again? I seriously doubt it. No one was hit thank god! But I say take it for what it is. A lesson! Was I happy with the training? Yes. Will I take another TR course? Maybe. But I like to train with as many trainers as my budget allows to learn different tactics and styles. Should James have given my buddy a refund? I would think so bUT he did buy 2 new tires for his truck. Would I say beware of TR? No. They teach a good class and have great mind set they teach. Like I said not here to blast them only tell an un exaggerated FIRST hand account of what happened. Thanks

I too was there for the first hand account. I agree with everything he said. Also, at the end of the class the instructors said "who feels they didn't learn anything and wants a refund." The instructor had the phone ready to call their admin person for the refund. Nobody spoke up and certificates were handed out.

[AAShooter]

Originally Posted by racky

I too was there for the first hand account. I agree with everything he said. Also, at the end of the class the instructors said "who feels they didn't learn anything and wants a refund." The instructor had the phone ready to call their admin person for the refund. Nobody spoke up and certificates were handed out.

Did no one leave the class when this incident happened? I find it hard to believe everyone stayed.

[racky]

Originally Posted by AAShooter

Did no one leave the class when this incident happened? I find it hard to believe everyone stayed.

nobody left. everyone stayed for the rest of the class. When the instructor had the admin girl on speed dial ready to give the refund, nobody spoke up requesting one. the phone was in the air and i had clear view of the phone. the instructor was ready to call and give a refund to any unsatisfied patron. check the TS website on conditions for refunds. refunds are given upon request.

[AAShooter]

Originally Posted by racky

nobody left. everyone stayed for the rest of the class. When the instructor had the admin girl on speed dial ready to give the refund, nobody spoke up requesting one. the phone was in the air and i had clear view of the phone. the instructor was ready to call and give a refund to any unsatisfied patron. check the TS website on conditions for refunds. refunds are given upon request.

Personally, I think that is a great technique to suppress anyone from stepping up and requesting a refund. Regardless of whether people decide to pursue it at that time, a refund request should be honestly considered and processed as appropriate.

[racky]

Originally Posted by AAShooter

Personally, I think that is a great technique to suppress anyone from stepping up and requesting a refund. Regardless of whether people decide to pursue it at that time, a refund request should be honestly considered and processed as appropriate.

call me crazy... but a respectable person shouldn't be afraid to speak up amongst their peers. am i right?

[Spyder]

People backing this as a minor "oh, well, it happens, no big deal" incident... please don't ever shoot on, or even visit, my range.

CSA is probably dead on correct.

[XDJYo]

Tactical Response video from AR15.com. Wow. Just wow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfZVuQPe4

Geez, people flame Front Sight, but seriously!?!?!

[L84CABO]

http://bearingarms.com/tactical-resp...tudents-truck/

[L84CABO]

Originally Posted by MilitaryArms

That's an interesting claim given the range has confirmed the incident by those that witnessed it first hand. Also, another student on BearingArms confirmed an accident happened and claimed this email was sent out to all attendees by James:

"Hello Alumni,

Well now that you have trained with us you are a part of our family…our big dysfunctional family. As I write this message I haven’t spoken with my crew that taught your Fighting Pistol class in Sacramento but I can still draw a conclusion. One of my instructors, [instructor name removed], did something that was not in our curriculum, was not authorized, was not allowed, is not condoned and was very reckless, dangerous and negligent. We are all very fortunate no person was injured.

People from your class are already telling this story on-line and, of course, as it turns from an eyewitness account into gossip the story will get more and more outlandish. One day it will be so preposterous you yourself will have to interject that you were there, and that is not what happened, and you will be scoffed at. Such is life… I thank those of you who have not gone on-line and bashed us.
Well, I certainly cannot take that errant round back but I can deal with the consequences. I can tell you that [instructor name removed] has never done anything like this before. It is still hard for me to believe he even did it! It is very unlike him but facts are facts. So I am left with what to do with [instructor name removed]. I simply cannot do “nothing” but what do you do with a devoted employee that has worked very hard to be good at his job that does a hair brained thing like this? It is even tougher when this knucklehead is my friend. We are a close knit team here at Tactical Response.

So I am left with the aftermath to sort through and clean up. I have to decide to fire a guy on his “first offense” or if I should suspend him or make him do remedial training. There are many wrong answers and no 100% right one. Any decision like this weighs heavily on my heart.

I will end with this – I GIVE YOU MY WORD that nothing like this will ever happen again in one of my classes and I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE to every student in that class for his unprofessional display. It was WRONG and will NEVER happen again.

James Yeager - MFCEO"

It would seem even James has confirmed something went down where a firearm was discharged unintentionally.

Normally I'd call that a pretty good initial response from the boss who apparently wasn't there when it happened. He seems to be genuinely concerned about the safety of everyone. But then I remember these are also the people that have no problem putting a photographer down range to film live fire of their classes. So I'm having a bit of trouble believing that safety actually is a primary concern and cant help but wonder how what appears to actually be a pretty cavalier attitude about safety, may have contributed to this event.

[Germ1]

Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87

Is there anyone here, including the "stop whining about a scratch, it's a tool" guys, who would comply with that direction in a class or elsewhere?

I cringe in movies when they say "drop it", and a gun hits the cement.

We'd have had a serious conversation about when I'd get my full refund if any clown told me to do that.

I treat my firearms as tools as that's what they are. I would not drop my loaded pistol in the dirt and stomp on it. First of all it's unsafe, as we are all seeing. Second it makes no sense. I would also refuse to shoot at targets while there's a person standing in between them. That's just stupid, one mistake and some one's life is over. Along with me being thrown in prison, no thanks.

[XDJYo]

My tools get worn and scratched from using it as a tool, not from dragging it behind my car or throwing it on the ground. Same with my guns. I don't mind if they're 'used' and look worn. That's fine. I don't want a giant scratch because some moron in a training class told me to throw my pistol on the ground and told me to step on it!

[Germ1]

Originally Posted by HopetonBrown

Ken Hackathorn told me to lay my Wilson Supergrade on a target while everyone else had to put their polymer in the mud because "there's no pride of ownership with a Glock" he said.

Also because your crappy 5,000 dollar, outdated, hundred year old pistol wouldn't function if it was thrown in the mud. Tolerances are too tight a grain of sand would lock it up.

[556fmj]

After the ND, why didn't anyone from Tactical Response inform the range staff? Why did it have to take a internet posting for Sac Valley to find out about this incident?

[Doheny]

Is this the same class being talked about in this thread:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...php?p=17728379

[Vertac]

Originally Posted by bcbragg

I was there. Nearly shot. Yeager told me I was condescending and refused my refund.

Thats really unfortunate.
Contact me and Ill hook you up with some training.

Brandon Verrett
Facebook.com/VerrettsTactical

[AAShooter]

Originally Posted by racky

call me crazy... but a respectable person shouldn't be afraid to speak up amongst their peers. am i right?

Many would prefer to handle disagreements discretely rather than making it a public issue. Whether they choose to do it publicly or privately, the concerns and request should be considered on its merit.

[kustomkat1950]

"Also because your crappy 5,000 dollar, outdated, hundred year old pistol wouldn't function if it was thrown in the mud. Tolerances are too tight a grain of sand would lock it up".


and the glock fan bois are here! ^^^^

[tanks]

I am amazed those guys are still alive. This is a pic from one of their class videos on you tube.

Full Youtube video here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8qfZVuQPe4

[Sierra57]

This incident won't help Yeager and co. any with the vast majority of gun owners, although I'm sure it will enhance his street cred with a certain fringe segment of gun owners.