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Calguns LEOs LEOs; chat, kibitz and relax. Non-LEOs; have a questions for a cop? Ask it here, in a CIVIL manner.

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  #41  
Old 07-20-2009, 6:28 PM
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Nope.

Maybe 15-20 years ago. However as you get older, have kids a family payments. You stop doing the things you did when you were 20. Only way in heck i would intervene is if it was a total emergencey situation. Otherwise its not worth any legal actions taken by anyone.
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  #42  
Old 07-20-2009, 6:34 PM
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I would totally jump in if I saw the officer stuggling with a suspect. I hope someone would jump in if my butt was on the line.
As an armed security guard, I wouldnt hesitate to get involved if needed, especially considering I carry almost all the same equipment that a police officer does.
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  #43  
Old 07-20-2009, 6:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RolinThundr View Post
I'd jump right in- we expect them to be there for us, we should be there for them.
They're PAID to be there for us.
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  #44  
Old 07-20-2009, 7:04 PM
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Why should we ONLY help LEO's?

If I ever saw another citizen in distress I WOULD help since TO ME that is a BIG part of what being an American\good citizen stands for!

Another example is if you saw someone get into a car accident and the car burst into flames, I would do everything I could to get that person out of the vehicle.
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  #45  
Old 07-20-2009, 7:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harmoniums View Post
I helped a guy out once that was being beat very badly by a cop.
This was back in Ireland, and the cop was drunk
Funniest post of the day! And I'd help, but in limited circumstances.
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  #46  
Old 07-20-2009, 8:04 PM
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Originally Posted by djandj View Post
Exactly - how does that work? Back up comes around the corner to see you wrestling with the officer and another civilian. So they start beating/ tazing/shooting everything not in a uniform right?

Question for the offiers - what do you do in a situation like that where you get a call officer down or officer in need of backup and you turn the corner and see him wrestling with two civi's. Answer honestly now! What would you do?
I've rolled on this type of situation many times and have never had a problem figuring out who the good guys were.

I've had people jump in and help many times, and I always made sure I thank them, and I work an urban area where backup is close by. Two minutes in a fight is an eternity, so any help is appreciated.
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  #47  
Old 07-20-2009, 8:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry47 View Post
i wouldn't be surprised if the suspect later files a civil suit against you, especially in california
Had that happen once and the county counsel representing me also represented him since I had asked for help he was covered because of 150 PC, which REQUIRES you to assist as reasonably appropriate when requested.

Dirtbag's attorney was really frustrated when the judge immediately dissmissed every allegation against the citizen. Dirtbag didn't get a dime.
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  #48  
Old 07-20-2009, 8:14 PM
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Yes
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  #49  
Old 07-20-2009, 8:29 PM
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I would help the Officer. It's the right thing to do.
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  #50  
Old 07-20-2009, 8:40 PM
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Absolutely I would.
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  #51  
Old 07-20-2009, 9:02 PM
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Perhaps it's just me, but I've been it a lot of knock down drag out fights over the years. I was never one to shy away from a fight. I'm probably only alive today because citizens have jumped in and helped me overcome the BG, subdue him, and cuff him up. I'm very grateful. For those of you who might have helped me out; I owe a debt of gratitude for helping me to help you. However Rekrab's post has made me glad to be retired, and has caused me to loose my appetite for this thread.

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  #52  
Old 07-20-2009, 9:24 PM
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Default 150 PC

[QUOTE=geeknow;2801358]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron-Solo View Post
Had that happen once and the county counsel representing me also represented him since I had asked for help he was covered because of 150 PC, which REQUIRES you to assist as reasonably appropriate when requested.

QUOTE]

FUD.

I will challenge this statement on the basis that none but LEO's are qualified or trained to assist in the situation described by the op. Seeing as this is the basis for the claim that none but LEO's can possibly be entrusted to carry firearms, the same can be fairly stated for all aspects of your job, unfortunately...

I wish it werent so.

But, as the late great Mr Cronkite said "that's the way it is.."

Then there is the issue of legal fees...Right, wrong, or otherwise, I have no interest in racking up huge lawyer bills proving one thing or the other when the entire situation could be avoided altogether.

Maybe when I was younger and more brash (and admittedly with a lot less on the line), but not now....

Again, wish it werent so.

Maybe now is the time to start pushing for legislative change to allow this interface to happen more naturally, and with less fear of reprisal?


When you call FUD make sure you know what you are talking about first. Here is the section from the California Penal Code:

150. Every able-bodied person above 18 years of age who neglects or
refuses to join the posse comitatus or power of the county, by
neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in taking or arresting any
person against whom there may be issued any process, or by neglecting
to aid and assist in retaking any person who, after being arrested
or confined, may have escaped from arrest or imprisonment, or by
neglecting or refusing to aid and assist in preventing any breach of
the peace, or the commission of any criminal offense, being thereto
lawfully required by any uniformed peace officer, or by any peace
officer described in Section 830.1, subdivision (a), (b), (c), (d),
(e), or (f) of Section 830.2, or subdivision (a) of Section 830.33,
who identifies himself or herself with a badge or identification card
issued by the officer's employing agency, or by any judge, is
punishable by a fine of not less than fifty dollars ($50) nor more
than one thousand dollars ($1,000).


It's a misdemeanor. Most people don't know it is even on the books.

And don't get mad at LEOs because of the state's screwed up gun laws. Most of us don't like them either. I can't get a CCW for my wife and she's been the target of several valid threats based on my profession over the years.
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  #53  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire in the Hole View Post
Perhaps it's just me, but I've been it a lot of knock down drag out fights over the years. I was never one to shy away from a fight. I'm probably only alive today because citizens have jumped in and helped me overcome the BG, subdue him, and cuff him up. I'm very grateful. For those of you who might have helped me out; I owe a debt of gratitude for helping me to help you. However Rekrab's post has made me glad to be retired, and has caused me to loose my appetite for this thread.
You don't have to worry about Rekrab's posts, they have been deleted. If he continues to write in the same manner, he will be deleted from this particular forum.
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  #54  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:13 PM
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Of course I would help.
So would my two sons.
And my wife.
And my dog.
And the guy who lives across the street.
And the guy who lives next door.
And so many others.
You are not alone.
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  #55  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:18 PM
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[QUOTE=geeknow;2801358][QUOTE=Ron-Solo;2801228]Had that happen once and the county counsel representing me also represented him since I had asked for help he was covered because of 150 PC, which REQUIRES you to assist as reasonably appropriate when requested.

QUOTE]

FUD.

I will challenge this statement on the basis that none but LEO's are qualified or trained to assist in the situation described by the op. Seeing as this is the basis for the claim that none but LEO's can possibly be entrusted to carry firearms, the same can be fairly stated for all aspects of your job, unfortunately...

Did you even bother to read 150PC before you insulted Ron-Solo by accusing him of FUD. Perhaps if you had, you would have realized he is correct.

Furthermore, did you bother to read the following by Kestryll in the sticky on the rules for this forum.

Quote:
Post denigrating or insulting our LEO members will be removed and the poster will no longer be able to access this forum.


By this rule, you should be gone from this forum. I will take some input from the leo you insulted (Ron-Solo) before deciding
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  #56  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:20 PM
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I'd help an LEO in a second, just ask them if they needed assistance before I jumped in the game.
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  #57  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scrat View Post
Nope.

Maybe 15-20 years ago. However as you get older, have kids a family payments. You stop doing the things you did when you were 20. Only way in heck i would intervene is if it was a total emergencey situation. Otherwise its not worth any legal actions taken by anyone.
So this is what's it come down to? Sheeple. I'm am old. I on the other hand believe that honor and courage do not have an expiration date. If I saw an LEO in distress and in need of assistance, I'd ram my wheel chair into them, and begin beating them with my cane if that was what was necessary. Doing the right thing is timeless.
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  #58  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAC USMC View Post
How many of you California citizen/gun owners would assist a police officer trying to make an arrest or one being jumped by gang-bangers!

This is common practice in many rural locales where most folks have rifle racks in their trucks and intercede to help a police officer in difficulty. Not to imply a weapon is needed in each incident, but it is there for a reason. I would think most police officers support the 2nd Amendment as well as concealed carry with a CCW.

Many cops have had citizens jump in and help them subdue a bad-guy even some who were armed. I had citizens help me on several occasions back a few years. Times and attitudes change over time -- so what would you do?
I'd help, of course, that goes without saying. Hopefully, without resulting legal troubles, but I doubt I'll be thinking about legal troubles at the time, anyway.
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  #59  
Old 07-21-2009, 12:45 AM
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I helped an LAPD officer on a ped stop that had gotten horrifically sideways for the officer. LEO jumped out of his car and begins to field interview, perp goes ballistic swinging on the officer etc. It goes to the ground very quickly. My wife and I make our way over, fast, I ask the LEO if he needs assistance. He emphatically yells, "NO, Stay back!" I did just that. Perp within about 15 seconds of that gets the upper hand and has now "mounted" the LEO and is striking him about the head and face. LEO then Yells, "HELP!" So I came in from behind and got a very good, very deep, chokehold on the perp. Got him off the LEO and LEO had him cuffed in about 25 seconds. After, when all was said and done, LEO comes over to me and thanks me and says, I crap you not, "I guess it woulda been easier if I had let ya jump in the first time." I laughed, he laughed. I asked if he wanted my ID he said no. "No point in 'hemming' up a good guy."

To answer the question... I don't go around looking for a fight however any human deserves better than being beat down in the street. So yes I would help regardless of a badge or not. I am however polite and ask before I cut in to the dance. :-)
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  #60  
Old 07-21-2009, 3:37 AM
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I would absolutely help LEO. I'm a little less willing when it isn't LEO because I have been told too many stories of not knowing who was the BG or the victim helping the BG once someone steps in.
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  #61  
Old 07-21-2009, 4:06 AM
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I in no way believe myself to be chuck norris with a badge. If I were getting my *** kicked, I'd be happy to have someone come help me out. To those that would or have, I thank you.
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  #62  
Old 07-21-2009, 7:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Khram View Post
Funniest post of the day! And I'd help, but in limited circumstances.
And what would those limited circumstances be?
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  #63  
Old 07-21-2009, 7:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audihenry View Post
No need to get involved and I don't always automatically assume that the LEO is always in the right. I don't want that on my conscience. Let him call backup.
So let's look at this a little further and break it down.

"No need to get involved"? Refer to 150 P.C. Without involvement from the citizenry, LE can not do its job. This is why COP's (Community Oriented Policing) was invented.

You don't want helping an LEO in distress to be on "your conscience"?
I don't even know what to say about this.

"Let him call back-up."
So the LEO is pinned down on the ground, taking blows, can't access his radio, and you would just let it play out to the end? Nice.



Several of the posts on this thread allude to the point of view that the citizenry pay LE to protect them, take an oath to do so, so there is no responsibility or duty for the citizenry to get involved. This is akin to the beliefs of many parents who feel that it is the job of teachers to educate their kids, train them to be responsible and accountabe, teach them manners, how to get along on the play ground, fair-play,etc. Many parents see no need to follow-up with helping out with homework, backing up the teacher's dicipline decisions, getting their kids to school on time, providing a nutritious meals for their developing minds etc, after all, that's what their educational tax dollars are for, right?
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  #64  
Old 07-21-2009, 8:10 AM
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Man, I am 48, not exactly in my prime still, age and responsibilities have nothing to do with it for me.

I believe in a lawful society, I believe MOST LEO's are upstanding, I want a safe environment for my wife and kids, and their wives and kids. To me, this is about doing what is right. The right thing is to help someone who needs it, be a neighbor, friend, or those who put it on the line everyday for your benefit.

There will always be soldiers and conscientious observers in every society.

This subject, and others which have to do with LEO's, are why the bridge between the us and them attitude will never be built.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scrat View Post
Nope.

Maybe 15-20 years ago. However as you get older, have kids a family payments. You stop doing the things you did when you were 20. Only way in heck i would intervene is if it was a total emergencey situation. Otherwise its not worth any legal actions taken by anyone.
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  #65  
Old 07-21-2009, 8:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jicko View Post
I'd loved to help....

But the issue is.... when the PD's backups come, they may mistake you as one of the bad guys....
No good deed goes unpunished!
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  #66  
Old 07-21-2009, 8:28 AM
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When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
as I was not a communist.

Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
as I was not a social democrat.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not protest;
as I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
as I was not a Jew.

Then when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
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Old 07-21-2009, 8:55 AM
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I'd help in any way I can.

Turby
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Old 07-21-2009, 9:17 AM
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I've called for back-up on numerous occasions. 35-45 minutes later, back-up arrived.

I've also been in that pursuit, foot bail through back yards, pastures, barbed wire, hands on for 2-3 minutes (an eternity), hearing the radio traffic as you fight asking, "where is he, I can't find him," with folks looking out their windows and you can't answer the radio to direct your "back-up" to you because your hands are rather busy.

To those that have assisted, thanks. To those that have offered to assist, thanks. To those that have stopped to make sure I was o.k., thanks. To those that have stood-by till my back-up got there, thanks.
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Old 07-21-2009, 9:19 AM
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Over the course of my career I have had citizens come to my aid. I was unbelievably grateful to them for helping me and allowing me to make it home to my family on that day.

One night not to long ago at domestic disturbance one of my deputies was getting pounded on pretty hard and a citizen came to help him. My deputy was on the ground, on his back getting and was unable to get to his radio to call for help. The citizen had a baseball bat in his hand and my deputy thought he was going to get double teamed. The next thing he knows the suspect was laying on the ground and bleeding from the side of his head. The citizen was gone before I arrived 45 seconds later. We have no idea who the guy was, could never locate him and aptly nicknamed the citizen "The Shadow".

When we battle evil on the streets we sometimes forget there are still many good people out there. It is important that we remember not everyone is our adversary. I am, and I know my deputy is too, forever grateful to "The Shadow" who saved my guy from receiving more serious injuries than he had already suffered.

To those of you who would stand there and watch an an officer (or any one else) get whipped on...wow, just wow.
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  #70  
Old 07-21-2009, 9:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire in the Hole View Post
Several of the posts on this thread allude to the point of view that the citizenry pay LE to protect them, take an oath to do so, so there is no responsibility or duty for the citizenry to get involved. This is akin to the beliefs of many parents who feel that it is the job of teachers to educate their kids, train them to be responsible and accountabe, teach them manners, how to get along on the play ground, fair-play,etc. Many parents see no need to follow-up with helping out with homework, backing up the teacher's dicipline decisions, getting their kids to school on time, providing a nutritious meals for their developing minds etc, after all, that's what their educational tax dollars are for, right?
A little high and mighty when there is plenty of evidence supporting some bad apples among the troops.

I'd jump in to help in a heartbeat, no questions asked. But, I can see how some would be hesitant based simply on my own experiences with SOME, NOT MOST, LEOs, the legal system, and political sentiment of this state.

Just to keep a little perspective in the thread.
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  #71  
Old 07-21-2009, 10:40 AM
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In 2004, there were 836,787 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States.

Since we are dealing with human nature, there will always be those few that are "bad apples," and that the media portrays as representing those 836,787 (to use that number). What would it be like if I as a law enforcement officer were to take the reverse view of citizens? Therefore, every driver who drives a car is a jerk based upon my last contact with a jerk driver? Etc...

Overall if chosing to assist an officer, not bad odds of picking the right side to be on. I'd take those odds to Vegas any day of the week.

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Old 07-21-2009, 10:44 AM
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I think part of the problem with this statement is, there is enough attitude on both sides of that argument to go around. Many people feel it is an "us vs them" operating tempo which causes problems. If we get off on this subject, it's not going to be productive.


Quote:
Originally Posted by oldironpants View Post
In 2004, there were 836,787 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States.

Since we are dealing with human nature, there will always be those few that are "bad apples," and that the media portrays as representing those 836,787 (to use that number). What would it be like if I as a law enforcement officer were to take the reverse view of citizens? Therefore, every driver who drives a car is a jerk based upon my last contact with a jerk driver? Etc...

Overall if chosing to assist an officer, not bad odds of picking the right side to be on. I'd take those odds to Vegas any day of the week.
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Old 07-21-2009, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldironpants View Post
In 2004, there were 836,787 full time sworn law enforcement officers in the United States.

Since we are dealing with human nature, there will always be those few that are "bad apples," and that the media portrays as representing those 836,787 (to use that number). What would it be like if I as a law enforcement officer were to take the reverse view of citizens? Therefore, every driver who drives a car is a jerk based upon my last contact with a jerk driver? Etc...

Overall if chosing to assist an officer, not bad odds of picking the right side to be on. I'd take those odds to Vegas any day of the week.
I'm glad we agree...
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:09 AM
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I would jump in.....I have nothing but respect for LEO's. Im the guy that thanks the cop even when Im written a ticket.
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PatriotnMore View Post
I think part of the problem with this statement is, there is enough attitude on both sides of that argument to go around. Many people feel it is an "us vs them" operating tempo which causes problems. If we get off on this subject, it's not going to be productive.
PatriotnMore, respectfully.... I believe my intent here has been misunderstood. In no way was I remotely suggesting/promoting/advocating an 'us vs them,' or a want of going down that path because for me, it does not exist. I've left other forums because of that aura. We are in fact all on the same side. My point was that in "all" of our contacts, the number of good far outweigh the bad no matter which side of the badge we're on or folks we meet at the store. No difference.

Another example would be that not all kids that ride a skateboard are bad kids, but there are those that would make assumption because of a few trouble makers. Human nature I guess. We have to make sure that we are "fair" when we come to a conclusion was the intent of my post. I wasn't picking on anyone or any perception. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. Officers have to remember too that the badge is only 3", it's the person behind it that makes or breaks it.

I had an old, gruff sergeant that told me once: "It is said in bible that Sampson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an a... "mule." Officers can kill just as many positive citizen contacts with the same instrument." I've tried to take that sage advice with me every day and pass it along to the new boots as well.

I was merely suggesting a reverse on the view to illustrate how that view can be misconstrued by looking at a few vs the many by all of us. Thus, the "winky" at the end.

Last edited by oldironpants; 07-21-2009 at 11:19 AM.. Reason: Added advice from an old sergeant
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Old 07-21-2009, 11:26 AM
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Great post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oldironpants View Post
PatriotnMore, respectfully.... I believe my intent here has been misunderstood. In no way was I remotely suggesting/promoting/advocating an 'us vs them,' or a want of going down that path because for me, it does not exist. I've left other forums because of that aura. We are in fact all on the same side. My point was that in "all" of our contacts, the number of good far outweigh the bad no matter which side of the badge we're on or folks we meet at the store. No difference.

Another example would be that not all kids that ride a skateboard are bad kids, but there are those that would make assumption because of a few trouble makers. Human nature I guess. We have to make sure that we are "fair" when we come to a conclusion was the intent of my post. I wasn't picking on anyone or any perception. We all put our pants on one leg at a time. Officers have to remember too that the badge is only 3", it's the person behind it that makes or breaks it.

I had an old, gruff sergeant that told me once: "It is said in bible that Sampson slew a thousand Philistines with the jawbone of an a... "mule." Officers can kill just as many positive citizen contacts with the same instrument." I've tried to take that sage advice with me every day and pass it along to the new boots as well.

I was merely suggesting a reverse on the view to illustrate how that view can be misconstrued by looking at a few vs the many by all of us. Thus, the "winky" at the end.
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Old 07-21-2009, 2:29 PM
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If I saw a police officer getting his butt handed to him or in grave danger and I was able to I would step in. How ever I am a female so typically getting into a physical conflict with someone who they them selves can not handle would not normally be an option for me.

In those cases how would I legally be able to assist a police officer?

Get a bat like the "shadow" and hit the BG?

Obtain my gun and threaten the BG with it until the police officer can pull his self together?

If the later does not work shooting said BG perhaps in the leg long enough to distract him to allow the police officer to pull his self together?

If I owned pepperspray or a taser could I use that as well?
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Old 07-21-2009, 3:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sugi942 View Post
I would even though I'm getting older... hahaha!

Makes me wonder about the N. Hollywood bank robbery scenario. Guys are shooting the place up, LEOs are going down, non-combatants are going down, you have your favorite rifle, it's a clear shot from your front yard fenceline behind cover... do you take the shot? Is it legal?
In that situation, yes, you would be stopping a violent felon in the process of attacking multiple people with the intent to kill them.

If I were in that situation, and had a reasonable chance of executing a good sniper shot, then it's one (or two, or three) shot(s), one kill. Bye Bye Bad Guy.
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Old 07-21-2009, 3:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyte- View Post
If I saw a police officer getting his butt handed to him or in grave danger and I was able to I would step in. How ever I am a female so typically getting into a physical conflict with someone who they them selves can not handle would not normally be an option for me.

In those cases how would I legally be able to assist a police officer?

Get a bat like the "shadow" and hit the BG?

Obtain my gun and threaten the BG with it until the police officer can pull his self together?

If the later does not work shooting said BG perhaps in the leg long enough to distract him to allow the police officer to pull his self together?

If I owned pepperspray or a taser could I use that as well?
Lyte,

Never underestimate yourself because you are a female! Some of the best partners I ever worked with were females, and i've worked some pretty tough areas. My partner during the LA riots was a female, who was one of the best cops I ever worked with. Common sense for the particular incident is critical to determine what is an appropriate level of involvement.

To all of the Calguns members who are hesitant to get involved. Helping out may be as simple as a 9-1-1 call, using the car radio or just being there to make the bad guy think twice. Depending on the circumstances, everything from pepper spray, taser, baseball bat, to a gun may be warranted and totally justified.

To those who are afraid of being mistaken for a bad guy, just make yourself know to the assisting officers and comply with instructions. If you are armed, put it on the ground (DON'T drop it - that's a party foul to gun lovers) and step away. You will probably get proned out because they don't know who you are and will stabilize the situation before sorting it all out. It's all about tactics and safety - yours and ours. We want to get bad guys, not good guys.

And to all those people who have assisted me in various situations over the last 31 years, THANK YOU!
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Old 07-21-2009, 3:44 PM
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Excellent points above by Ron-Solo.

I remember this incident and believe I read about it in the American Rifleman after this trooper was killed. If memory serves correct, the Texas DPS awarded the citizen a medal for his interdiction and only referred to him as, "the deer hunter."
Quote:
Patrolman Sammy Charles Long
Texas Department of Public Safety - Texas Highway Patrol
Texas
End of Watch: Sunday, November 21, 1976

Biographical Info
Age: Not available
Tour of Duty: 18 years
Badge Number: Not available

Incident Details
Cause of Death: Gunfire
Date of Incident: Sunday, November 21, 1976
Weapon Used: Officer's handgun
Suspect Info: Shot and killed by citizen

Patrolman Sammy Long was shot and killed after making a traffic stop on a driver for a traffic violation on US 67 near Rankin, Texas.

The suspect, who was AWOL from the US Navy, opened fire with a .32 caliber handgun as Patrolman Long approached the vehicle, knocking him to the ground. The suspect then took Patrolman Long's service weapon and shot him in the back six times as he lay on the ground.

A citizen, who was an avid deer hunter returning from a hunting trip, was stopped in a rest stop 150 yards from the traffic stop and witnessed the shooting. The man immediately retrieved his hunting rifle and shot the suspect at a range of 150 yards, killing him.

Patrolman Long had served with the Texas Highway Patrol for 18 years and was stationed at McCamey. He was survived by his wife and son.
(Emphasis added)

Last edited by oldironpants; 07-21-2009 at 3:47 PM..
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