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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #161  
Old 12-24-2017, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by EM2 View Post
Noooooo, concealed weapon license schemes are designed to make exercising your right to self defense more difficult, and to intimidate the average citizen into not even trying.

We should be able to bear any arms we are able to afford.

I think sometimes that many people have been oppressed for so long as to not understand their loss of Liberty.
^ This

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  #162  
Old 12-24-2017, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by rugershooter View Post
My rebuttal to that is questioning where you draw the line. I know I've seen media hype about hollow points as being more lethal. A prosecutor can twist anything in any way he wants. You're using the same type of pistol your local cops do? You're a cop wanna be. Using hollow points? You're using "extra lethal" ammunition so you can cause as much damage as possible. I'm sure there are a lot of other ways a prosecutor can make his case to twist the truth for a stupid jury. The whole reason I don't take the suggestions to not mod a gun too seriously is because there doesn't seem to be a statistically significant risk of that causing any legal problems. I base that on a lack of cited cases and since it seems to be conjecture, I can think of other scenarios that may be just as likely.
Again, why give them the opportunity? How do you know whether or not it made a difference in the jury's thinking?

Why add on an additional risk of going to prison so you can shave a second off your El Prez or shrink your groups by 2" at 25 yards?

I'm on record many times on CG saying that mods on an SD gun is playing with fire, but now that I'm in a gun-friendly state where just about everybody I've met including friendly granny types owns a gun, I might think about it. maybe.
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  #163  
Old 12-24-2017, 4:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Chewy65 View Post
Concealed weapons licenses are supposed to be issued for purposes of defense and with an eye towards ensuring that is qualified to safely use there defensive weapon. Ask yourself if the use of an AR pistol significantly increases the likelihood that rounds will miss or over penetrate the bad guy and strike innocents.
As others have already mentioned in this thread, use of an AR pistol would significantly increase the likelihood that rounds will hit or not over-penetrate.
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  #164  
Old 12-24-2017, 7:38 PM
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It should not be the sheriff who determines how a person chooses to make the best defense of oneself.


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  #165  
Old 12-30-2017, 11:07 PM
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Lol cerakote makes handguns unsafe or something? Wow
what A DICK.
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  #166  
Old 12-31-2017, 1:48 PM
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"I added a few guns since the new permits allow unlimited firearms as long as they're DROS'd to you. One of the guns I wanted as a CCW for the car was an AR Pistol, it wasn't anything outrageous, just a nice 10.5" DD upper on an 80% lower that I built and DROS'd a few years ago. Roger questioned if it was a good idea to put an AR Pistol on my CCW, so I had him put it on a seperate piece of paper in case there was an issue, the OCSD would / could easily remove it from the list."

Ok well an AR pistol, how did you think that would ever fly lol? Come on man this isn't freakin Tennessee or something Sir, you are in California. When they say "pistol" they mean a pistol, not a small AR 15. By the way do you really need a small AR 15 in your car for when you are driving around? Can't you just be like everyone else and carry a gun on your hip when you drive around?
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  #167  
Old 01-01-2018, 5:33 PM
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I have read this thread with amazement at the “don’t poke the bear” crowd. Leaving aside all the arguments over whether an AR pistol is a wise choice for a carry gun or trunk gun, the OP did absolutely nothing wrong. He asked permission for something that was completely legal, but within the power of the deputy to deny. The ONLY appropriate responses from the deputy would be grant the request or politely decline and explain that is was not within department policy to allow an AR pistol on a permit. That’s all. Any form of ***chewing or threatening to cancel the rest of the permit is nothing but pure ego and powertripping. LEO has a job to do, to enforce the law reasonably and fairly without their ego determining outcomes for citizens. They are granted the power to use violence, when necessary to effect an arrest, but other than that, a law abiding citizen should have no more concern dealing with an LEO then with the cashier at Del Taco. We should not have to deal with “bears” who feel it is appropriate to retaliate for something they perceive as a slight. LEO are still civil servants after all. If I go to Del Taco and ask for a breakfast burrito past their usual cut off of 11:30, I should expect a polite explanation that breakfast items are not available at that time. I should certainly not expect a *** chewing or some power mad cashier to threaten to cancel the rest of my order. There is absolutely no LEGITIMATE reason that a law abiding citizen should expect any less from an LEO.
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  #168  
Old 01-01-2018, 6:39 PM
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Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
I have read this thread with amazement at the “don’t poke the bear” crowd. Leaving aside all the arguments over whether an AR pistol is a wise choice for a carry gun or trunk gun, the OP did absolutely nothing wrong. He asked permission for something that was completely legal, but within the power of the deputy to deny. The ONLY appropriate responses from the deputy would be grant the request or politely decline and explain that is was not within department policy to allow an AR pistol on a permit. That’s all. Any form of ***chewing or threatening to cancel the rest of the permit is nothing but pure ego and powertripping. LEO has a job to do, to enforce the law reasonably and fairly without their ego determining outcomes for citizens. They are granted the power to use violence, when necessary to effect an arrest, but other than that, a law abiding citizen should have no more concern dealing with an LEO then with the cashier at Del Taco. We should not have to deal with “bears” who feel it is appropriate to retaliate for something they perceive as a slight. LEO are still civil servants after all. If I go to Del Taco and ask for a breakfast burrito past their usual cut off of 11:30, I should expect a polite explanation that breakfast items are not available at that time. I should certainly not expect a *** chewing or some power mad cashier to threaten to cancel the rest of my order. There is absolutely no LEGITIMATE reason that a law abiding citizen should expect any less from an LEO.
^This. Well said!
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  #169  
Old 01-01-2018, 7:31 PM
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Originally Posted by StuckInTheP.R.O.Ca View Post
^This. Well said!
^^^X10!
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  #170  
Old 01-01-2018, 8:08 PM
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Thank you very much for the support, gentlemen. I genuinely appreciate it.
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  #171  
Old 01-01-2018, 8:17 PM
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Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
I have read this thread with amazement at the “don’t poke the bear” crowd. Leaving aside all the arguments over whether an AR pistol is a wise choice for a carry gun or trunk gun, the OP did absolutely nothing wrong. He asked permission for something that was completely legal, but within the power of the deputy to deny. The ONLY appropriate responses from the deputy would be grant the request or politely decline and explain that is was not within department policy to allow an AR pistol on a permit. That’s all. Any form of ***chewing or threatening to cancel the rest of the permit is nothing but pure ego and powertripping. LEO has a job to do, to enforce the law reasonably and fairly without their ego determining outcomes for citizens. They are granted the power to use violence, when necessary to effect an arrest, but other than that, a law abiding citizen should have no more concern dealing with an LEO then with the cashier at Del Taco. We should not have to deal with “bears” who feel it is appropriate to retaliate for something they perceive as a slight. LEO are still civil servants after all. If I go to Del Taco and ask for a breakfast burrito past their usual cut off of 11:30, I should expect a polite explanation that breakfast items are not available at that time. I should certainly not expect a *** chewing or some power mad cashier to threaten to cancel the rest of my order. There is absolutely no LEGITIMATE reason that a law abiding citizen should expect any less from an LEO.
Agree with you.

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  #172  
Old 01-01-2018, 11:16 PM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
How did your AR firepower save you from a rushing crowd of angry rioters?
Did this ever get a reply?

It stood out in OP.
I've only read of rooftop Koreans, and similar parking lot pistols.
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  #173  
Old 01-02-2018, 9:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
I have read this thread with amazement at the “don’t poke the bear” crowd. Leaving aside all the arguments over whether an AR pistol is a wise choice for a carry gun or trunk gun, the OP did absolutely nothing wrong. He asked permission for something that was completely legal, but within the power of the deputy to deny. The ONLY appropriate responses from the deputy would be grant the request or politely decline and explain that is was not within department policy to allow an AR pistol on a permit. That’s all. Any form of ***chewing or threatening to cancel the rest of the permit is nothing but pure ego and powertripping. LEO has a job to do, to enforce the law reasonably and fairly without their ego determining outcomes for citizens. They are granted the power to use violence, when necessary to effect an arrest, but other than that, a law abiding citizen should have no more concern dealing with an LEO then with the cashier at Del Taco. We should not have to deal with “bears” who feel it is appropriate to retaliate for something they perceive as a slight. LEO are still civil servants after all. If I go to Del Taco and ask for a breakfast burrito past their usual cut off of 11:30, I should expect a polite explanation that breakfast items are not available at that time. I should certainly not expect a *** chewing or some power mad cashier to threaten to cancel the rest of my order. There is absolutely no LEGITIMATE reason that a law abiding citizen should expect any less from an LEO.
I agree. The "you're lucky just to be able to carry" comments are off base. Stop blaming fellow gun owners for the infringements placed on us by the political elite.

Yes, I realize the "reality" of carry permits in this state. No, I probably wouldn't put an AR pistol on my application since I know the likely outcome. But getting yelled at by some dude who should be doing nothing more than implementing the policies he was given is unprofessional at best. I realize that IAs can deny permits for virtually any arbitrary reason, but it doesn't excuse making empty threats.

If OC has a written policy in regards to AR pistols (I know they do about modifications) then the OP would be partly to blame. However, it doesn't excuse unprofessional behavior for what should be a simple correction to the permit.
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  #174  
Old 01-05-2018, 5:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Hopalong View Post
Its politics. Sheriff doesn't want it to leak out to the soccer moms that he's allowing anything "AR" related. He wants their votes too. Remember that these people don't really know the details, only that these are "trigger" words, no pun intended.

My daughter is 28 and loves to shoot AW's but says AR's look scary and regurgitates the CNN line about how dangerous and deadly they are and why do they need to be so high powered. She had shot an ak since age 8 and really loves to shoot it fast but accurate.

So here we have someone who's been brainwashed by the media and told these guns ar just killing machines.

Just so happens we are having this conversation in front of an open safe. Sh casually points to my nikko beautifully stocked 375 H&H and comments how that gun look less menacing and certainly less dangerous.

So I showed her a 5.56 round and a 300 grain 375 round.

She gets it.
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  #175  
Old 01-08-2018, 5:32 AM
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ABSOLUTELY! WTF were you thinking OP. Glad you got chewed out. You risk the entire program for ALL OF US with this stupid stunt. Thank you for posting though. Perhaps some other mall ninja will think twice before doing it again.
This^^^^^ Trying to put that on your permit displays poor judgement on your part AND your instructors part.

You got very lucky
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  #176  
Old 01-08-2018, 5:56 AM
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Absolutely poor judgemnt. Why would you want the most available, best otpions, to protect you and your family from murderous dirtbags! Racists!

With the kow towing responses above I expect they would say having more then one weapon on your permit is excessive. Hell...just lay flat on your back if assaulted.

What's next...having 15 round magazine's is wayyyy overboard!
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  #177  
Old 01-08-2018, 6:58 PM
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Originally Posted by MA5177 View Post

Quote:
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Originally Posted by CAL.BAR View Post
ABSOLUTELY! WTF were you thinking OP. Glad you got chewed out. You risk the entire program for ALL OF US with this stupid stunt. Thank you for posting though. Perhaps some other mall ninja will think twice before doing it again.
This^^^^^ Trying to put that on your permit displays poor judgement on your part AND your instructors part.

You got very lucky
How’s the view down there guys?

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  #178  
Old 01-09-2018, 4:42 AM
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Why would you add a gun to the permit that you didn’t even plan on carrying or having readily accessible? The way you define its purpose doesn’t even qualify as a CCW. Even if you did add it to the permit, storage laws would be the same if it’s inaccessible and locked in your trunk.

Your instructor should have told you no and he deserved to get a tongue lashing. That is rediculous.
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  #179  
Old 01-09-2018, 4:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DDscar View Post
Lol cerakote makes handguns unsafe or something? Wow
Yes and No

How many people do their own cerakote or pay 45.00 for it. Not talking Robar or companies who stand behind their product but I have had about a half dozen guns last year fail due to crappy fit and finish of the cerakote. I had one guy who essentially had a single shot cause he would have to smack it back into battery. He said it has been like that for hundreds of rounds... wtf
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  #180  
Old 01-09-2018, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Pupulepeter View Post
Why would you add a gun to the permit that you didn’t even plan on carrying or having readily accessible? The way you define its purpose doesn’t even qualify as a CCW.
The "qualifications" of a CCW firearm are simply, "...any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." (PEN 25400). An AR-15 pistol can meet that description.

A CCW also exempts the carrier from PEN prohibitions related to loaded carry. (PEN 26010)
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Even if you did add it to the permit, storage laws would be the same if it’s inaccessible and locked in your trunk.
The Penal Code makes no provision for vehicle storage of non-CCW guns; only for transport of those guns either within, or outside, a vehicle. They generally must be unloaded and locked in a secure container. (PEN 25610)

The Penal Code makes provisions for vehicle storage of CCW guns, and doesn't require them to be unloaded. (PEN 25140)

That's the difference.
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Your instructor should have told you no and he deserved to get a tongue lashing. That is rediculous.
The instructor doesn't make the issuing rules; the IA does. Under statute, the IA MUST publish policy and procedures controlling the issuance program. Many IAs use those policies as a means to articulate what won't be allowed for issuance. (PEN 26160 and PEN 26200(a))

I would not be surprised if the butt-chewing Sgt realized he'd missed a gap in his program, and tried to cover his agency's error by attacking the instructor and applicant.
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  #181  
Old 01-09-2018, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Dvrjon View Post
The "qualifications" of a CCW firearm are simply, "...any pistol, revolver, or other firearm capable of being concealed upon the person." (PEN 25400). An AR-15 pistol can meet that description.

A CCW also exempts the carrier from PEN prohibitions related to loaded carry. (PEN 26010)

The Penal Code makes no provision for vehicle storage of non-CCW guns; only for transport of those guns either within, or outside, a vehicle. They generally must be unloaded and locked in a secure container. (PEN 25610)

The Penal Code makes provisions for vehicle storage of CCW guns, and doesn't require them to be unloaded. (PEN 25140)

That's the difference.
The instructor doesn't make the issuing rules; the IA does. Under statute, the IA MUST publish policy and procedures controlling the issuance program. Many IAs use those policies as a means to articulate what won't be allowed for issuance. (PEN 26160 and PEN 26200(a))

I would not be surprised if the butt-chewing Sgt realized he'd missed a gap in his program, and tried to cover his agency's error by attacking the instructor and applicant.
Who makes the best holster for the AR pistol
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  #182  
Old 01-09-2018, 11:53 AM
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https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/eve...ds-ar-holster/
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  #183  
Old 01-09-2018, 2:07 PM
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LOL how about IWB?
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  #184  
Old 01-09-2018, 2:17 PM
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The real problem in CA is the attitude that this is 'a stunt'; it shouldn't even be an issue. The firearm is legal. The whole concept of the issuing authority having control over which guns a licensee can carry is a broken notion that needs to go.

Bring on national reciprocity.
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  #185  
Old 01-09-2018, 2:19 PM
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Who makes the best holster for the AR pistol
I like this one: https://www.desantisholster.com/DSD-RIG-223-MAG
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  #186  
Old 01-09-2018, 6:05 PM
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The real problem in CA is the attitude that this is 'a stunt'; it shouldn't even be an issue. The firearm is legal. The whole concept of the issuing authority having control over which guns a licensee can carry is a broken notion that needs to go.
This raises a question that has been on my mind. I realize the law requires the firearms to be listed on the permit, but is there anything in the law that specifically allows the IA to approve or disapprove specific legal arms, or is that simply an authority the IA has taken upon themselves because their power to issue the permit at all is effectively beyond review?
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  #187  
Old 01-09-2018, 6:08 PM
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Originally Posted by MajorCaliber View Post
This raises a question that has been on my mind. I realize the law requires the firearms to be listed on the permit, but is there anything in the law that specifically allows the IA to approve or disapprove specific legal arms, or is that simply an authority the IA has taken upon themselves because their power to issue the permit at all is effectively beyond review?
Most states you just get a CHL and carry whatever you like as long as it's a legal handgun. Some places don't even require it be a handgun, any legal firearm you conceal is fine. A finite list of what you personally may carry should be a non-starter.
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  #188  
Old 01-09-2018, 6:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Deedle View Post
Most states you just get a CHL and carry whatever you like as long as it's a legal handgun. Some places don't even require it be a handgun, any legal firearm you conceal is fine. A finite list of what you personally may carry should be a non-starter.
Ya but we are talking about a state ran by snowflakes , some of us are just lucky to have a CCW. I never thought I would see it in my lifetime
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  #189  
Old 01-12-2018, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by OCGunFan View Post
One of the guns I wanted as a CCW for the car was an AR Pistol, it wasn't anything outrageous, just a nice 10.5" DD upper on an 80% lower that I built and DROS'd a few years ago.
How did he know it was an AR Pistol, what make and model did you put down?
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  #190  
Old 02-16-2018, 9:22 AM
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I wonder what they would say about an AR pistol that’s completely built by a major manufacturer? Nothing modified or anything of the sort.
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  #191  
Old 02-16-2018, 8:15 PM
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How did he know it was an AR Pistol, what make and model did you put down?
Because the caliber needs to be listed.
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  #192  
Old 02-17-2018, 1:38 PM
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I am with the don't poke the bear crowd. Forget about whether or not the 2A guarantees the right to carry any gun you can afford. That is one interpretation but the reality is the only interpretation that counts is the one handed down by the highest court with jurisdiction. So far it's the liberal 9th. Everyone knows how hard it has been until recently to get a CCW in OC and arguably OC is now issuing with some liberality. We don't need jokers unnecessarily causing problems with the Sheriff. In short, you gotta know how to tell if a battle is worth fighting.
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  #193  
Old 02-17-2018, 7:37 PM
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While I can appreciate the practical side of the don't poke the bear position, because the Sherif's power to deny a permit is absolute and beyond review, I think it is a crying shame that we have to deal with bears that think that a polite and proper request for permission to do something that is completely legal, constitutes "poking" and entitles them to deliver a nasty, threatening and imperious response.

On a related note, I asked a question earlier in the thread that nobody responded to. Is there anything actually in the law that gives the Sheriff the legal authority to refuse to put a legal firearm on the permit simply because he does not like it. I realize the weapons have to be listed on the permit. My birth date has to be listed on my driver's license too, but I can't imagine anybody thinks the clerk at the DMV has the right to deny issuing me a license just because he does like my birthday or thinks Friday the 13th is evil. I'm inquiring about the principle here not just the raw power of the officer to be an *** and get away with his because his actions are "beyond "contestation".
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  #194  
Old 02-17-2018, 8:20 PM
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Originally Posted by OCGunFan View Post
I received my OK from OCSD to do my renewal training, I used Roger at Basic Gun Safety in Huntington Beach 714-864-0203. I highly recommend Roger, he's a great guy, easy to work with, very knowledgable, very professional and can work around your schedule. Plus he's just a good decent human being and I like spending money with good people.

I added a few guns since the new permits allow unlimited firearms as long as they're DROS'd to you. One of the guns I wanted as a CCW for the car was an AR Pistol, it wasn't anything outrageous, just a nice 10.5" DD upper on an 80% lower that I built and DROS'd a few years ago. Roger questioned if it was a good idea to put an AR Pistol on my CCW, so I had him put it on a seperate piece of paper in case there was an issue, the OCSD would / could easily remove it from the list.

So I complete the 4 hour training & qualifying at FT3 with the added guns and I submit my paperwork with the OCSD. I get a date of Nov 29th to pickup my new permit. I'm standing in the lobby of the CCW offices after checking in, when I receive a phone call from the head honcho of the CCW unit. He says we have a big problem and he wants to see me in his office ASAP. I tell him that I'm standing in the CCW waiting room to pick up my new permit and he says "I'm coming out right now".

He comes to the rear door, I greet him, as we're walking I said "is there a problem with me" and he says "yes.....but we'll talk in my office". Once in the office the pucker factor is getting high and I know something is really wrong. After sitting down this Sargent tells me he's going to cancel and revoke my CCW permit and kick Roger out off the CCW training program. I'm kinda in shock because I know I've never had any issue using my gun in the last 2 years, none of my guns are stolen, so I'm trying to figure out why I'm in trouble. The Sargent asks why I tried to add an AR Pistol, what was I thinking and why would Roger allow me to add it.

As the blood is draining out of my head, I explain my reasoning for wanting an AR Pistol on my permit. Having spent 3 days in the middle of the LA Riots, I wanted the AR as a trunk gun and there was was a small window of time to add it. I told him I had no intention of carrying it on my body and I was happy to show it for examination. I also told him that any fault was mine and Roger had no part of putting it on my permit. I said I thought that all of my guns were screened and approved or not by the discretion of the OCSD CCW unit. So if they had an issue, it would simply be removed from the list and move on. Then I apologized and said that I had no intention of trying to sneak the AR onto the list, so the Sargent understood that I was not trying to get over on them.

The Sargent explained that he wouldn't allow any customized gun on a permit. He said the only aftermarket features the CCW unit would allow are grips, a laser and sights. He told me even if a gun had Cerecoat it wouldn't be allowed and absolutely no aftermarket internal parts changes were allowed.....PERIOD. He also said if anyone changed the internal parts from factory stock, their permit would be revoked.

The Sargent was a great guy, he was professional and trying to protect the integrity of the CCW office requirements. I don't necessarily agree with his reasons for some of the custom gunsmithing dealing with reliability or safety, but I do agree that putting in light triggers in a combat weapon isn't a good idea. Any of you guys with customized guns or that have any internal parts that aren't factory stock, be warned.

Long story longer, I was given my permit, I called Roger to profusely apologize for causing him problems because the Sargent chewed his ***** also.

Ray
I find this interesting considering OCSD Swat is carrying Agency arms customized weapons.
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  #195  
Old 05-08-2018, 6:03 AM
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Ok, so I'm confused as to the original point. Can I get a CCW in Long Beach, and if so, what constitutes good cause?
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  #196  
Old 05-08-2018, 6:30 AM
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This is the kind of stupidity which makes Sheriff’s consider not issuing permits....as the op found out. Remember if you use that AR in a cc situation he will have to explain allowing it to the public and the rabid media.

Its a dickhead move and makes it difficult for the rest of us.
Besides you could have had a SW 500 mag...a mans gun.

Edit: I was not calling you a “Dickhead”. Personally. Poor choice of words on my part
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Last edited by KahrMan; 05-08-2018 at 10:17 AM..
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  #197  
Old 05-08-2018, 5:06 PM
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Cokebottle Cokebottle is offline
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Ok, so I'm confused as to the original point. Can I get a CCW in Long Beach, and if so, what constitutes good cause?
Long Beach is LA County, so not under the current Sheriff.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #198  
Old 05-09-2018, 11:25 AM
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Thanks Coke Bottle. I'm optimistic we will get Bob Lindsey elected in June. Hopefully he'll straighten things out for us shortly thereafter.
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