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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 08-04-2014, 10:19 PM
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Default Pistol-caliber carbines: fun gun, or practical addition to armory?

Having owned a number of these types of weapons, I wanted to know what your opinions are of these guns. As far as I can tell, the primary advantage of such a weapon was sharing ammo with one's primary handgun. In a minimalist's/survivalist's arsenal, this has very obvious advantages of simplifying ammo requirements or reloading requirements.

However, there doesn't seem to be a huge market for these things outside of the SASS genre and their attendant lever rifles. Even these seem mostly set up for CAS games and not necessarily being a serious tool in a serious situation (for example, I doubt that many LEO's are outfitted with PCCs just so they can use the ammo from their service pistols in a pinch.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:30 PM
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You have a lot of acronyms.

I enjoy doubling up on my calibers. I would not have any issue using my lever in a serious situation. But I will admit, it can be a finicky little *****. But, you have to cycle it like you stole it and not be gentle.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:43 PM
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357 lever carbine is quite popular and somewhat hard to find for a reason. Shots fast, hits hard, low recoil, EZ to find ammo-and its cheap.

Suitable for home defense, hunting, car/ truck gun and not attacked and over regulated by the hoplophobes in govment. (Yet)

Ammo compatibility with a revolver is a big plus. The lever carbines I have shot have not been ammo sensitive.

IMO a serious tool that would be a good weapon for serious situations.

Civilian semiauto carbines are over regulated, and overpriced for the most part IMO. Rather have a good lever gun in 357 or 44. Fun and practical.

Last edited by Ugly Hombre; 08-04-2014 at 10:49 PM..
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:51 PM
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I have a 357mag lever action and a 9mm ar15 carbine. Both are extremely fun, accurate, hard hitting, and easy to make/find ammo for. The 9mm carbine can make it to 500yards easy which is more than enough for 99.9999999% of engagements
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anthem View Post
You have a lot of acronyms.

I enjoy doubling up on my calibers. I would not have any issue using my lever in a serious situation. But I will admit, it can be a finicky little *****. But, you have to cycle it like you stole it and not be gentle.
I know - TMFA (Too Many Acronyms) At my work, we once had a list compiled of all of our "commonly used acronyms." There were approximately 50 of them!

I'm just thinking that unless you're in a situation where you're going cross country and hoofing it on foot or horseback and carrying one long gun and one handgun, then a combo that shares the same ammo makes great sense especially when ammunition may be difficult to come by.

But it seems that in most circumstances where I'd have a choice between a pistol-caliber carbine and a carbine chambered in a more potent cartridge, I'd obviously pick the gun with longer range and hitting power, especially if we're talking about guns similar in weight and handling characteristics (i.e. I would pick a 30-30 over a .357/.44/.45, and a 5.56AR over a 9mm one).
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:52 AM
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.357 mag and the extended versions make for pretty decent carbine length rifles, IMHO, but you are certainly correct about the reasoning.

I saw a youtube video from hickock45 where he had done some testing with .44mag in revolver and rifle. IIRC, he was having some trouble finding a single reload for the two because of slight differences in barrel bore.

.44 mag in a rifle can be fired all day by lots of people, but it is a handful in a revolver.
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Old 08-05-2014, 5:12 AM
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that's lots of info on lever guns. semi autos are another story. Don't forget about bolt actions though. I've had all of them at one time or another and apart from those carbines set up on 357 or 41 or 44 mag and that ilk they're just toys. A 9mm rifle is just a plinker in my book. Anything much bigger than a 22 beats up small game so they're no good there. They're all fun to plink with. For taking deer or bear though, a lever action in .44mag doesn't make me feel under equipped. As far as the PD role, they are pretty handy and easy to use. The M1 carbine isn't really much more than a PCC.
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Old 08-05-2014, 6:11 AM
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I've got an 1892 Rossi carbine in .45 colt. It's lightweight, accurate, easy recoil and capable of 100 yard accuracy with no problem at all.
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Old 08-05-2014, 6:37 AM
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45 Colt ftw
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Old 08-05-2014, 6:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 23 Blast View Post
... I would pick a 30-30 over a .357/.44/.45...
Sometimes this choice is not as "easy" as it first appears. A .357 is very easy for anyone to shoot out of a rifle, and this will lead to potentially improved accuracy over a 30-30 (which may cause some shooters to flinch). And it seems like the ballistics of a .357 out of a carbine or rifle-length barrel are actually very good. Check out this article:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...vs-357-magnum/

Do I have .357 HD rifles/carbines? You bet I do.
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Old 08-05-2014, 6:47 AM
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45/70!!! They do make a revolver as well.
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Old 08-05-2014, 7:01 AM
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This would be fun in a free state


You could probably buy with a fake suppressor shroud. Uses 1911 magazines.
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Old 08-05-2014, 7:30 AM
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Default That DeLisle is absolutely drool worthy

On my list.
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Old 08-05-2014, 7:37 AM
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stuff like TNW, JRC, Thureon Ruger PC, Marlin Camp... yeah, very good... some more that others.

For the new choices, Thureon, totally. I got one a few months ago for soem magazine articles. thing shoots 2" at 100 yards. COmes in any of 5 calibers, and uses AR furniture.

TNW is caliber swap-able, and a little more compact that the thureon. And it's a takedown gun.

Back to the thureon..... if you live in America, and have a manufacturers license, and make a full auto post sample out of it... it runs at 1500 rpm.
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Old 08-05-2014, 7:41 AM
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I am a 9mm fan boy and liked the idea of a rifle to match. As I became more interested in these rifles, I always assumed that a +P round would be ideal for the rifle.

Anyone agree or disagree?
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Old 08-05-2014, 7:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HarryN View Post
.357 mag and the extended versions make for pretty decent carbine length rifles, IMHO, but you are certainly correct about the reasoning.

I saw a youtube video from hickock45 where he had done some testing with .44mag in revolver and rifle. IIRC, he was having some trouble finding a single reload for the two because of slight differences in barrel bore.

.44 mag in a rifle can be fired all day by lots of people, but it is a handful in a revolver.
I would tend to disagree. The PC-9 and PC-4 are both very effective out to 200yds. I can not think of many defense scenarios where I would be shooting further out. IMHO long range shooting is offense, hunting a target. Most SHTF situations are defensive.
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Old 08-05-2014, 8:26 AM
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I don't use rimmed cases in a primary sidearm, so I wouldn't be sharing a cartridge between my sidearm and a MANUAL rifle (lever). I do like the semiautos from HK in 9mm and .45 ACP. But, since I can't have a fullauto, I'd rather just use a pistol to plink; it's much more challenging for me.
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Old 08-05-2014, 10:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surefire232 View Post
I am a 9mm fan boy and liked the idea of a rifle to match. As I became more interested in these rifles, I always assumed that a +P round would be ideal for the rifle.

Anyone agree or disagree?
Not always. Example (quoted directly from the JR Carbine website, special attention to the last line):

Quote:
Q: Can I shoot Plus-P (+P) ammunition in my JR Carbine? It should not be a problem for you to use Plus-P ammo in your JR Carbine. We initially prohibited Plus-P ammunition because the JR Carbine is a direct blowback weapon with a non-locking bolt. The added power of Plus-P ammunition caused a significant increase in gas discharge through the ejection port without giving any ballistic advantage over conventionally charged cartridges. We were concerned that the higher power ammunition could cause the bolt to move rearward too soon in the firing sequence, before the chamber pressure had dropped sufficiently, thereby prematurely exposing the case wall and causing potentially dangerous case failures. We have subsequently modified our bolt design and significantly increased the weight of our proprietary buttstock buffer. As a result the bolt stays in battery for a longer period, directing more of the combustion gases into the barrel and out of the muzzle. Plus-P ammunition may or may not provide a significant increase in performance at this point, but it should not cause any problems.
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:21 PM
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I live near Angeles range and they have this great pistol gallery. Lots of steel between 35-100 yds. Ideal for a PCC.

I'm looking at getting either a hi point carbine in 9mm,
to go with the ATI stock I have for it....Or get a Citadel M1 replica in 9mm....
But now I'm leaning towards a handi rifle in 357mag.
Definitely considered fun guns, in this case.
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Old 08-05-2014, 4:56 PM
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I would say they're fun guns that are more than suitable for serious use. In fact, in a defense situation, my cheapie Hi-Point 9mm carbine would be my go-to weapon. It's highly accurate at any likely range I'd be shooting (0-200 yds), the low recoil makes follow-up shots easy and accurate, and the minimal noise/flash makes indoor shooting less deafening/blinding than a rifle caliber.

Only problem would be the damned bullet button, but only my handgun doesn't have one (at least until I get myself a lever-action).
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Old 08-05-2014, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmh1 View Post
Sometimes this choice is not as "easy" as it first appears. A .357 is very easy for anyone to shoot out of a rifle, and this will lead to potentially improved accuracy over a 30-30 (which may cause some shooters to flinch). And it seems like the ballistics of a .357 out of a carbine or rifle-length barrel are actually very good. Check out this article:
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...vs-357-magnum/

Do I have .357 HD rifles/carbines? You bet I do.
Thanks, tmh1. Yeah, I've read that article before, and the arguments on how the .357's performance is substantially improved with the longer barrel of a carbine versus a revolver are eye-opening. Still, this paragraph is what I seem to also remember:

Quote:
Even the weakest .30-30 load we tested produced almost 30 percent more energy than the most impressive .357 Magnum, and even that so-called ‘weak’ 170-grain .30-30 bullet will retain much more of its energy much farther downrange than any flat-nosed .357 slug will. And that’s with standard ammo.
For the record, I currently have one long gun/handgun combo in .357, a Smith 620 and a Rossi 92 with a 16" barrel. I really do like the idea of the neatness of having a handgun and long gun in the same cartridge, but I do think that if I were in a "get out of Dodge" situation and could only take two guns with me, it honestly wouldn't be these two.

I guess my view of the PCC is that they are a little of both a "fun gun" as well as a serious tool, albeit one where many other similar tools would be far more effective. In a lot of ways, I think where the PCC really shines is in a HD situation. Easier to aim and hit with than a handgun (with the added bonus of better ballistic performance when you're talking about revolver-type cartridges), while generally easier to handle and especially, make follow-up shots than a shotgun. Ever been in a room where a gun, let alone a shotgun, went off? Without hearing protection? Not only is the noise deafening, the concussion of the blast stuns you momentarily the way you would belly-flopping into a pool off the 3m platform. A PCC mitigates the blast of a revolver round compared to if it were fired out of the revolver, and it isn't the almighty blast of a 12 gauge. Best of both worlds.
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Old 08-05-2014, 8:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardian Mode View Post
I live near Angeles range and they have this great pistol gallery. Lots of steel between 35-100 yds. Ideal for a PCC.

+1 for PCC's at Angles Shooting Range's pistol gallery. Love to ring the metal plates with these guys (both .357/.38sp):



Upper one is a Rossi R92, lower one is a Chiappa 1892 Alaskan Takedown. Both 16" barrels. Fun guns to shoot, very little recoil!

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Old 08-05-2014, 8:34 PM
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Lever guns notwithstanding, most every law enforcement/special ops force out there either uses or has used pistol caliber carbines for close quarters action. I'd say THAT is pretty good reason to have them. Especially back in the day when you could get them with 30 and 40 rd mags.
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Old 08-05-2014, 8:47 PM
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I got my wife a Ruger PC9 for HD use because the 12 gauge was just too much for her. It's compact and has a lot of firepower since I had some old Ruger pre-ban mags. Recoil is very light. Perfect for her. I think this is where a pistol caliber carbine really shines.
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Old 08-05-2014, 8:57 PM
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I got my wife a Ruger PC9 for HD use because the 12 gauge was just too much for her. It's compact and has a lot of firepower since I had some old Ruger pre-ban mags. Recoil is very light. Perfect for her. I think this is where a pistol caliber carbine really shines.
Yep it's amazing what the 16 inch barrel and advanced rifling on the PC9 does to the ballistics of a 9mm pistol round.
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Old 08-05-2014, 11:15 PM
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raygun5000, where did you buy that Chiappa Alaskan takedown? She's a beaut!
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:09 AM
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I agree. That Chiappa is pretty.

I wish the PC9 were still being sold. I'd have one by now.

There's also the Ruger 77/357 and 77/44.
I'm a fan of those 2...But I don't dig the issues I keep reading regarding reliability.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:59 AM
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Hell yeah !!

Grab a HiPoint carbine in 9mm for under $300 -

Fugly and the triggers suck - But easy to bang the 8" gong at 100 yards -

And cheap to shoot.

My next two purchases will be a .357 Ranch hand 12" pistol -

And a .410 lever shotgun - With MAYBE a lever 12ga thrown in for good measure.....
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Old 08-06-2014, 4:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Guardian Mode View Post
I agree. That Chiappa is pretty.

I wish the PC9 were still being sold. I'd have one by now.

There's also the Ruger 77/357 and 77/44.
I'm a fan of those 2...But I don't dig the issues I keep reading regarding reliability.
Yeah - I was very hot and heavy for a 77/357, and was saving pennies to get one, but I keep hearing about crappy QC and reliability issues and that worries me. Mainly I liked the idea of it because scope mounting is far simpler than on most levers, but after watching a few videos about how to slick up a Rossi 92 action, my infatuation with the 77/357 is waning.
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Old 08-06-2014, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by 23 Blast View Post
Having owned a number of these types of weapons, I wanted to know what your opinions are of these guns. As far as I can tell, the primary advantage of such a weapon was sharing ammo with one's primary handgun. In a minimalist's/survivalist's arsenal, this has very obvious advantages of simplifying ammo requirements or reloading requirements.

However, there doesn't seem to be a huge market for these things outside of the SASS genre and their attendant lever rifles. Even these seem mostly set up for CAS games and not necessarily being a serious tool in a serious situation (for example, I doubt that many LEO's are outfitted with PCCs just so they can use the ammo from their service pistols in a pinch.
Our Departments answer, for the rank and file, to the L.A bank shoot out, Ruger PC-9's. Prior to that only SWAT Officers could carry rifles.
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Old 08-06-2014, 7:06 AM
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Our Departments answer, for the rank and file, to the L.A bank shoot out, Ruger PC-9's. Prior to that only SWAT Officers could carry rifles.
LAPD? I haven't been in Los Angeles proper in a while, but I thought that in many agencies, regular patrol cars (and motorcycle cops for that matter) are equipped with AR-15 rifles.
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Old 08-06-2014, 7:29 AM
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I have a HK USC 45 and it seems to be my best HD option. It is light, short, good power coming from the 45acp out of a 16" barrel and best of all it is not loud and has negligible muzzle flash - both of which are considerations if needed in an indoor environment, particularly without ear protection, which would likely be the case in an HD situation.

The Hk is overpriced for what it is, but what Hk wants, Hk gets, if you want one. That said, it is an excellent little carbine.

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Old 08-06-2014, 8:09 AM
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This might be a tangent,
But we should start getting people to not just keep their guns by their bedsides,
but also some electronic earmuffs.
Maybe the earmuffs go on first to better hear the creeping burglar sneaking around your house since those earmuffs actually give you super hearing ability.
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Old 08-06-2014, 9:51 AM
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Lever guns notwithstanding, most every law enforcement/special ops force out there either uses or has used pistol caliber carbines for close quarters action. I'd say THAT is pretty good reason to have them. Especially back in the day when you could get them with 30 and 40 rd mags.
There is a reason that almost none of them do anymore, though. They switched over to AR-15 type weapons due to improved ballistics and concerns about overpenetration by pistol-type ammunition (many types of civilian ammo in .223 will penetrate LESS than pistol ammo in terms of interior building materials like sheetrock and wall studs, while still delivering superior wounding ability over pistol ammo).
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Old 08-06-2014, 9:54 AM
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It's pretty sad that we now consider 20+ cents a round cheap to shoot.
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Old 08-06-2014, 9:57 AM
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There is a reason that almost none of them do anymore, though. They switched over to AR-15 type weapons due to improved ballistics and concerns about overpenetration by pistol-type ammunition (many types of civilian ammo in .223 will penetrate LESS than pistol ammo in terms of interior building materials like sheetrock and wall studs, while still delivering superior wounding ability over pistol ammo).
This is true you would be amazed how much penetration a 9mm will have when shot thru a long barrel with aggressive rifling. Probably at least 10 times as much as when shot thru a pistol barrel.
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  #37  
Old 08-06-2014, 11:59 AM
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^10x's?^

Thats ambitious lol.
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:22 PM
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IDK

We took a 5 inch stack of phone books and wrapped then in duct tape. A 9mm pistol didn't fully penetrate the front cover leaving about 1/8th inch of brass sticking out the front of the block.

The 9mm rifle blew clean thru.

Lacking a better way to measure I'd say about 10x
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Old 08-06-2014, 12:43 PM
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Thureon Defense in .40 is a nice shooter but I don't like that its missing a last round hold open. Hi-point in 9MM and .45, the .45 is more fun to shoot.
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Old 08-06-2014, 1:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 71MUSTY View Post
Lacking a better way to measure I'd say about 10x
Use a chronograph and calculate the energy as a measure ~ 1/2mv^2 + 1/2Iω^2 (will need to estimate I)

BTW, this is the manual rifle forum, which is why the question might be better suited for semis. In that case, HK really does the best in carbines. Other companies or designs like in an AR platform just always seem to fall a bit short in function or can be downright jam-o-matics.

As long as there is expanding gases from combustion that generate a net forward force, a long barrel of the same diameter will always expel the projectile faster. If I were only shooting a rifle in the same cartridge as a handgun, I'd use a slower powder with a larger charge, which will generally provide for higher velocities.

Also, I heard that the plastic on HiPoints melts if they are shot too much or left out in the sun.
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