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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

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  #13241  
Old 08-30-2021, 5:39 PM
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It just so happens I will be touring Gun Site next month. Anything you gents. want me to ask?

Will they ever have a coupon day?


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  #13242  
Old 08-31-2021, 8:02 AM
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It just so happens I will be touring GunSite Academy next month. Anything you gents. want me to ask?
Please ask if they require their students to start from the basic classes in order to take their ďupper divisionĒ classes.
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  #13243  
Old 08-31-2021, 5:00 PM
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Originally Posted by VolvoWrench View Post
It just so happens I will be touring GunSite Academy next month. Anything you gents. want me to ask?
Woot…!!! Yeah, please ask them what makes their curriculum different from other established schools (I would believe that they also do research on other schools for their own development, etc.). Hhhmmm… Maybe how their curriculum has evolved over the last several years to keep up with more contemporary developments (seeing from their course offerings they have Red Dot-only 250).

Also, please do solicit tips on where most students lodge… Looking at GS’ location - not much choices (both distance-wise and cost-wise) compared to FS.

I actually plan on taking 250 Q1 of next year and did reach out to regular student at GS - @AFTII.

Thanks in advanced!



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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Please ask if they require their students to start from the basic classes in order to take their “upper division” classes.
Only if you pass El Presidente under 10-secs??? :-p

Yeah, I saw from one of Panteao’s documentary on GS that they have an El Prez for the students. Interesting really…



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  #13244  
Old 09-03-2021, 12:22 PM
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I have a "Director" membership (previously known as diamond, and "upgraded" with Front Sight TV), that I have sitting in my account I'd be willing to sell. Its transferable and I still have no use for it.
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  #13245  
Old 09-03-2021, 12:24 PM
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I have tried to find my question by spending some time of the FS site but did not find the answer...any help welcomed. Can you use red dot for the 4-day defensive handgun?
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  #13246  
Old 09-03-2021, 12:53 PM
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I have tried to find my question by spending some time of the FS site but did not find the answer...any help welcomed. Can you use red dot for the 4-day defensive handgun?
YES


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  #13247  
Old 09-03-2021, 5:36 PM
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Another question. What is the current price for 9mm ammo at FS. TIA
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  #13248  
Old 09-03-2021, 6:32 PM
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You will want to buy your ammo. at Ammo Supply Warehouse (not affiliated but, happy customer). Current prices...

https://www.ammosupplywarehouse.com/...dex&cPath=1_51
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  #13249  
Old 09-03-2021, 7:07 PM
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Ammo Supply warehouse is good to go. If you really want to know the price for ammo at FS ammo bunker you will have to call and ask. They will only hold ammo for you two weeks before the class and only the exact round count for the course.
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  #13250  
Old 09-03-2021, 7:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenm View Post
Another question. What is the current price for 9mm ammo at FS. TIA
I (we) donít buy ammo from the Bunker at FS.

Like those above - we go to Ammo Supply Warehouse.


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  #13251  
Old 09-04-2021, 1:23 PM
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Thanks for the answers.
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  #13252  
Old 09-05-2021, 6:45 AM
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I’m really rethinking if it’s worth going to our skill builder classes in December. For RSB, we’re shooting only, what, 250 rounds in two days? With a shot timer, we can do that on our own. Plus, no non-magnetic ammo restrictions.

Only thing that lacks is the camaraderie with other FS students.


Come to think of it, class low round counts may be a very effective method to keep attendance down.
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  #13253  
Old 09-05-2021, 3:41 PM
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Just finished ATHG at FS this weekend.

Frontsight is back to normal round counts.
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  #13254  
Old 09-05-2021, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Just finished ATHG at FS this weekend.

Frontsight is back to normal round counts.
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  #13255  
Old 09-05-2021, 9:53 PM
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Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Just finished ATHG at FS this weekend.

Frontsight is back to normal round counts.
Wow. That is a significant change. Did they give you any advanced warning or did you find out when you got there?
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  #13256  
Old 09-09-2021, 9:51 AM
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Heading out tonight for a marksman skill builder if anyone is planning to attend this very hot weekend.
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  #13257  
Old 09-09-2021, 6:49 PM
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Heading out tonight for a marksman skill builder if anyone is planning to attend this very hot weekend.
Good luck, safe travels and stay hydrated
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  #13258  
Old 09-11-2021, 1:03 PM
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Default 223 Match ammo for 4d Rifle Marksmanship

Hello,
For 4D Rifle Marksmanship with a 16 in AR with 1:7 twist.

If I use predominantly NOSLER .223 REMINGTON 77GR CUSTOM COMPETITION HPBT AMMUNITION (200 rounds)

but throw in a few

PMC X-Tac Match 223 Remington Ammo 77 Grain Open Tip Match (60 rounds)

Will it make a tangible difference?

Should I use the PMC X-Tac Match 223 77 grain first and get it out of the way, and finish the course with all the same Nosler 223?
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  #13259  
Old 09-11-2021, 4:06 PM
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Zero, gather data and test with the Nosler. Use the PMC for other drills. It would be a good idea to compare the POI of the PMC compared to the Nosler.
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  #13260  
Old 09-12-2021, 6:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maaster View Post
Hello,
For 4D Rifle Marksmanship with a 16 in AR with 1:7 twist.

If I use predominantly NOSLER .223 REMINGTON 77GR CUSTOM COMPETITION HPBT AMMUNITION (200 rounds)

but throw in a few

PMC X-Tac Match 223 Remington Ammo 77 Grain Open Tip Match (60 rounds)

Will it make a tangible difference?

Should I use the PMC X-Tac Match 223 77 grain first and get it out of the way, and finish the course with all the same Nosler 223?
It might. If you have a chronograph, test each ammo and see if there is much speed difference. My 18Ē Larue doesnít like PMC X-Tac 77 gr OTM. I canít get good groups with them. 1:7 twist like yours.

If there is much difference or one gives a larger standard deviation, Iíd have two different kinds of magazines (e.g. Magpul and Lancer) with me and fill each kind only with one brand of ammo so you donít mix them up during class. Zero with the better ammo, and shoot the other only on the shorter 100 or less distances.
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  #13261  
Old 09-12-2021, 6:49 AM
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Well it was a good class. When out with a scanned together rifle. All quality parts but just zeroed for 50 and hand to figure out drops when I got there.
Ran American Eagle 75gr rounds. Decent ammo but not match. Did happen to pull off a great group at 350 4 shots in 1 1/4Ē group. Was pretty impressed.
Only 8 students in class so we had more time. Ran through a practice test and shot 11 down out of 18. Horrible. It was hot and I fall apart after 105*. It got up to 111 yesterday with gusts up to 22mph and all three flags going in different directions.
Went in and cooled off and then came out and DGed with only 2 down. I just couldnít get the 75 yard shots in the circle.
Did have myself and another DG and two others get graduate. Great class and the instructors were awesome.
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  #13262  
Old 09-12-2021, 8:19 AM
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Congrats, Damon
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  #13263  
Old 09-12-2021, 6:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
Just finished ATHG at FS this weekend.

Frontsight is back to normal round counts.
Confirmed, day one handgun tactics in the wrapper, 350 rounds. Wicked fun class.
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  #13264  
Old 09-12-2021, 6:48 PM
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Great shooting Damon!
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  #13265  
Old 09-14-2021, 9:48 AM
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Membership Type: Director
Membership Date: 2009
Courses Taken: NONE
Next Course: May: 4 Day handgun
Comments: Have never been but looking forward to it.
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  #13266  
Old 09-15-2021, 5:51 AM
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Finished another 4DDHG this past weekend. Shot DG in the skills test with 11 points down. Better than my last class in June where I shot 13 points down.

It was hot, and direct sun the entire time. When I was there in June temps were about the same (100F), but we had a lot more cloud cover and even some rain which made it more bearable. June was a 2-day skill builder, and two days in the heat was doable. Four days in that heat and direct sun was a bit rough.
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  #13267  
Old 09-15-2021, 7:12 AM
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Iím heading up for 4 day Rifle Marksmanship this weekend. Iíve been a couple times to the 4DDH, but this is my first rifle class. Bringing my brother and his friend for their first time at frontsight.


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  #13268  
Old 09-16-2021, 12:21 PM
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Have fun, SonorousAria! RM is a slow paced class probably better suited to newbies than PR.
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  #13269  
Old 09-16-2021, 12:21 PM
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Have fun, SonorousAria! RM is a slow paced class probably better suited to newbies than PR.
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  #13270  
Old 09-16-2021, 12:22 PM
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Enjoy. What are you running for a rifle?
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  #13271  
Old 09-17-2021, 1:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
Well it was a good class. When out with a scanned together rifle. All quality parts but just zeroed for 50 and hand to figure out drops when I got there.
Ran American Eagle 75gr rounds. Decent ammo but not match. Did happen to pull off a great group at 350 4 shots in 1 1/4Ē group. Was pretty impressed.
Only 8 students in class so we had more time. Ran through a practice test and shot 11 down out of 18. Horrible. It was hot and I fall apart after 105*. It got up to 111 yesterday with gusts up to 22mph and all three flags going in different directions.
Went in and cooled off and then came out and DGed with only 2 down. I just couldnít get the 75 yard shots in the circle.
Did have myself and another DG and two others get graduate. Great class and the instructors were awesome.
Congrats!! My next goal at FS is to upgrade the G I got in that class to a DG.
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  #13272  
Old 09-17-2021, 4:55 PM
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Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Have fun, SonorousAria! RM is a slow paced class probably better suited to newbies than PR.
In what way is RM a newbie class? Talking with rangemaster this week about taking RM as next class in my training. He said, likely hardest test to DG on FS curriculum. 9 circular targets with two shots per. Entire skills test 18 shots total, 35 yards to 350 yards. Sounds challenging and any anything but beginning class
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  #13273  
Old 09-17-2021, 5:28 PM
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RM is easy as rifle manipulations are not really focused on and the time pressure is non existent. Hardest thing not to do is shoot before your time.

The hard part with RM is accuracy from standing to prone then prone supported. Also depending on the range is the wind. Biggest thing is know your drops, have a good zero and shoot a light enough rifle that is accurate. No need for anything over 223 for this class.
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  #13274  
Old 09-17-2021, 7:50 PM
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RM is easy as rifle manipulations are not really focused on and the time pressure is non existent. Hardest thing not to do is shoot before your time
Shoot before time, please explain? Entire relay in a position holding, one shooter at a time being evaluated? Thought no time constraints?

Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
The hard part with RM is accuracy from standing to prone then prone supported. Also depending on the range is the wind. Biggest thing is know your drops, have a good zero and shoot a light enough rifle that is accurate. No need for anything over 223 for this class.
With shooting supports/aids, do you need to shoot while carry gear being used or can you stage gear, bags or sticks at different distances? What gear have you found useful beyond elbow pads for shooting prone and pack/bipod for supported prone?
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Old 09-17-2021, 8:32 PM
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The times they give you to shoot are generous. As in 1.5 minutes to get into position then 2 minutes to fire your shot at the longer ranges. Off hand at 35 and 50 they give you 30 to shoot so really no pressure in getting a shot off.

All shooting supports must be carried starting at the 150. If you are shooting bipods they have to be attached to the rifle at all times. Even during the close in shots.

I used my back pack as a rest. If using a bipod then get something with spiked feet otherwise they slide on the ground.

You had a choice if using a bag. You could place it behind you, ground your rifle then retrieve your bag and get set up during the set up time OT hold your back pack and then flop it in front of you and then put your rifle on it as you get into position. As my rifle had a stupid expensive scope on it, I set my rifle on the bag.

Essential gear that I use for this is a dump bag just to hold rounds and a mag, a spirit bubble on the gun to ensure level, and a rifle rest on my bag https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/a1srm...-shooting.html
If you have molle straps. Make sure you can comfortable get behind your rifle and if need be build a cheek rest to center your eye and to get a repeatable engagement with the rifle. Fit of the rifle is key.

As for a scope I ran a 5x25 scope. 5 was a little big on the bottom end for the 35 and 50 yard shots but doable. I ran the course before with a 6.5 x 20 and the close shots SUCKED to make. Too much magnification. You don’t need over 15 power on the top end and can get by with less easily. The other thing you need is a tape measure. I dialed in for a 50 yard zero that put me dead on at 200 and 18” low at 350.

Make sure your rifle is zeroed before you go and your trigger is 4# or more. Have a gunsmith check it as most of the manufactures are off on their weights. Lastly if you can bring a lawn chair as the metal chairs suck.

If you do me you email I can send you a dope sheet you can print out that has all the measurements for the targets.
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  #13276  
Old 09-18-2021, 6:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Divehobo View Post
In what way is RM a newbie class? Talking with rangemaster this week about taking RM as next class in my training. He said, likely hardest test to DG on FS curriculum. 9 circular targets with two shots per. Entire skills test 18 shots total, 35 yards to 350 yards. Sounds challenging and any anything but beginning class
As Damon said, itís a low key class, but not an easily DGed class. If's slow paced, easy if you arenít familiar with your equipment yet. No pressure to keep your magazines loaded to capacity, loading and unloading the gun, etc. Due to the generous times, you can really focus on your body position, cheek weld, trigger control, breathing, etc.


Quote:
Originally Posted by damon1272 View Post
The times they give you to shoot are generous. As in 1.5 minutes to get into position then 2 minutes to fire your shot at the longer ranges. Off hand at 35 and 50 they give you 30 to shoot so really no pressure in getting a shot off.

All shooting supports must be carried starting at the 150. If you are shooting bipods they have to be attached to the rifle at all times. Even during the close in shots.

I used my back pack as a rest. If using a bipod then get something with spiked feet otherwise they slide on the ground.

You had a choice if using a bag. You could place it behind you, ground your rifle then retrieve your bag and get set up during the set up time OT hold your back pack and then flop it in front of you and then put your rifle on it as you get into position. As my rifle had a stupid expensive scope on it, I set my rifle on the bag.

Essential gear that I use for this is a dump bag just to hold rounds and a mag, a spirit bubble on the gun to ensure level, and a rifle rest on my bag https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/a1srm...-shooting.html
If you have molle straps. Make sure you can comfortable get behind your rifle and if need be build a cheek rest to center your eye and to get a repeatable engagement with the rifle. Fit of the rifle is key.

As for a scope I ran a 5x25 scope. 5 was a little big on the bottom end for the 35 and 50 yard shots but doable. I ran the course before with a 6.5 x 20 and the close shots SUCKED to make. Too much magnification. You donít need over 15 power on the top end and can get by with less easily. The other thing you need is a tape measure. I dialed in for a 50 yard zero that put me dead on at 200 and 18Ē low at 350.

Make sure your rifle is zeroed before you go and your trigger is 4# or more. Have a gunsmith check it as most of the manufactures are off on their weights. Lastly if you can bring a lawn chair as the metal chairs suck.

If you do me you email I can send you a dope sheet you can print out that has all the measurements for the targets.
The scopes Iíve used in the class have been 1-8x LVPO scopes. They allow you to change magnifications during class, unlike in PR. I used 3-4 x during the 37 and 50 yd shots. For some reason the higher magnification makes me overcompensate my own movements.

Unless you like preloading your bipod, I found that you can get by with standard non-spiked bipod feet. But, yes, for consistency going into Precision Rifle, I prefer spiked feet also. But those damned things poke holes in everything, your rifle case, rental car seats, etc.lol

Yes, a good cheek rest is important. The instructors helped me during class setting one up, even building one up with tape and foam they have on hand, but if your stock is a highly adjustable precision rifle type, youíll have an easier time doing it and it wonít look like a Wile E Coyote Gunsmithing product at the end.
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  #13277  
Old 09-18-2021, 7:37 AM
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Shout out to both Damon1272 and Beanz2 for all the helpful tips. 2022 will include RM and will start working here at home range as prep. Limited to 200 yards but can likely offset with smaller versions of target.

Tips and suggestions, keep them coming and thanks again
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  #13278  
Old 09-23-2021, 4:08 AM
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Hoping to get some suggestions for gear for the Practical Rifle class.

Only classes I've taken at FS are handgun classes, and hope to get back out there before the end of the year for the Practical Rifle.

I'll be bringing a Springfield Saint Victor with a PA 1-6x24mm LPVO. I do have a Holosun 510C, but have somewhat crappy eyesight, and doubt I'll be able to hit anything consistently at 100 yards with a red dot or iron sights).

Wondering how many mags to bring. I have a bunch of 10/30 and 10/20 Magpul mags. Yes, it would be great to have actual 30 round mags, but I don't have any, and don't want to risk buying them out there and then flying back with them and just going to work with what I have. Even though I'm limited to 10 round mags, does it make sense to bring the 10/30's because they would be easier to handle and manipulate, or do the smaller mags actually come in handy for certain situations like when shooting prone, etc.?

Also wondering how many mags you keep on your person anyhow do you carry your mags while in class? In pants pockets, belt mounted mag pouches (and if so how many?), chest rigs, etc?

Is there any other gear that you would deem essential for this specific class, or in the very least that would make the class more enjoyable? I have knee pads that slip into my cargo pants, and would be bringing a spare charging handle. Rifle does have back-up iron sights if my optic goes down.

Like I mentioned, I've never taken any rifle classes and have very little experience with AR-15's (hence the reason I'll be taking the class!)
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Old 09-23-2021, 6:53 AM
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Sling. You need a good sling. I used to like single points but since Iíve moved on to adjustable two points. For me shooting standing and kneeling needs a different length from prone.

Dump pouch. Especially with ten rounders, youíll be swapping mags often. I carry my extra rounds in a separate pocket.

With 30 rounders, I carry four magazines. Six if I can anticipate malfunction exercises, the extras being an empty one and one with junk or discardable ammo. Now Iím shooting 5.56, itís hard to police my own ammo. Back when I was only shooting 5.45, I didnít worry (plus ammo was cheap back then)

Get earpro that works shooting your rifle in prone. What works in HG may not work with a stock on the shoulder. At worst, put a foamy in your strong side ear. In the rush, you may not notice your stock is pushing up on the ear pro..

Chest rigs donít work for me in the prone and weak side mag pouches forward of the hips get in the way while kneeling. I use a battle belt with everything behind the hip joints. Whatís comfortable for minutes at home may not be for hours in class.

Elbow pads. I use football type of soft sleeves. The hard plastic ones move around and I always manage to land my elbows not in the little plastic cups.

For an AR, a cleaning kit and lube. I clean at least my BCG and CH every night. With an AK, I get an extra 15 minutes of sleep

Iíd consider just bringing Magazine Blocks and buy 30 round Pmags at Bass Pro or a local shop in Pahrump if I had to bring them back to CA. Unless you have a 7pm flight to catch after class, you can have your cake and eat it too. 30 rounders are handy as a monopod. Most instructors donít care if you do that.

I prefer bringing two rifles to class. Faster than swapping parts. But then I leave the spare at my daughterís house in Henderson. Make sure both are sorted out.

Eye protection, make sure the frame allows you to see the reticle while shooting in the prone while you have a good cheek weld.
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Old 09-23-2021, 8:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beanz2 View Post
Sling. You need a good sling. I used to like single points but since I’ve moved on to adjustable two points. For me shooting standing and kneeling needs a different length from prone.

Dump pouch. Especially with ten rounders, you’ll be swapping mags often. I carry my extra rounds in a separate pocket.

With 30 rounders, I carry four magazines. Six if I can anticipate malfunction exercises, the extras being an empty one and one with junk or discardable ammo. Now I’m shooting 5.56, it’s hard to police my own ammo. Back when I was only shooting 5.45, I didn’t worry (plus ammo was cheap back then)

Get earpro that works shooting your rifle in prone. What works in HG may not work with a stock on the shoulder. At worst, put a foamy in your strong side ear. In the rush, you may not notice your stock is pushing up on the ear pro..

Chest rigs don’t work for me in the prone and weak side mag pouches forward of the hips get in the way while kneeling. I use a battle belt with everything behind the hip joints. What’s comfortable for minutes at home may not be for hours in class.

Elbow pads. I use football type of soft sleeves. The hard plastic ones move around and I always manage to land my elbows not in the little plastic cups.

For an AR, a cleaning kit and lube. I clean at least my BCG and CH every night. With an AK, I get an extra 15 minutes of sleep

I’d consider just bringing Magazine Blocks and buy 30 round Pmags at Bass Pro or a local shop in Pahrump if I had to bring them back to CA. Unless you have a 7pm flight to catch after class, you can have your cake and eat it too. 30 rounders are handy as a monopod. Most instructors don’t care if you do that.

I prefer bringing two rifles to class. Faster than swapping parts. But then I leave the spare at my daughter’s house in Henderson. Make sure both are sorted out.

Eye protection, make sure the frame allows you to see the reticle while shooting in the prone while you have a good cheek weld.
Thank you for all the advice!

Forgot to add I do have a 2-point Blue Force gear Vickers padded sling.

Also have a Maxpedition dump pouch, so thank you for that recommendation. Maybe that combined with one Blade-Tech single mag pouch on my support side would do the trick.

Have in-ear electronic ear pro and a set of 3M electronic muffs with a cutaway to accommodate a stock and I'll experiment how well that cutout works with the rifle.

When I fly out there I always stay the night after the last day of class. Gives me time to get a decent night's sleep, get everything packed up proper and in this case I'd be able to swap out furniture before heading to the airport and not be rushed.
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Last edited by Vinnie Boombatz; 09-23-2021 at 8:34 AM..
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