|
California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here. |
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
||||
|
||||
Self Defense 9mm Bullets, Other than Jacketed Hollow Point
If copper jacketed hollow points were not an option, what 9mm bullets would you mass produce for self defense?
Please post bullet profile: (FMJ Round Nose, FMJ Flat Nose, Copper plated Flat nose/Round Nose, hollow point , Lead Round Nose, Lead Semi-Wadcutter (yes, they do exist) etc... All bullet profiles are welcome to play, as long as you can back up why. Note: Copper plated hollow points are welcome to play, even though expansion, if any, would probably be minimal. Please post weight of bullet in grains and relative penetration compared to bullets of other weights. If possible, please post the velocity you feel you could safely push this bullet out at from a 4.5" barrel in order to make it adequate for a two-legged bad guy. Write a couple paragraphs or a couple of sentences as to why you think It is the best bullet design excluding hollow points. This should get good! |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Mass produce as in handload? From commonly available components?
In that case, I vote Speer 3997 JSP. It has a Gold Dot jacket, pre cut to the lead, and has a pure lead core so it will expand at 9mm velocities. It will penetrate like 45 hardball and make a similar wound. |
#3
|
||||
|
||||
Are you serious?
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#4
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I've never even seen a jacketed soft point in 9mm. I'll look into it. Thank you for that. Last edited by Grunt81; 06-03-2014 at 7:47 AM.. |
#6
|
||||
|
||||
Absolutely not.
I'm just having trouble understanding why you want 9mm ammo that isn't modern JHP. From what I gather this is a thought experiment, not an availability issue. So, why?
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#7
|
||||
|
||||
Why? There is no logical reason to use anything other than modern bullets for self defense. Gold Dot or HST are some of the best. XTP offers more penetration at the cost of expansion. Unless it's self defense against large, dangerous animals, modern expanding hollow points are the only good choice. There's a reason police no longer use 38 Special lead round nose. It sucks.
|
#8
|
||||
|
||||
I don't want to pay the prices for modern hollow points. I've seen an X-ray of a .40 S&W that went through the chest and stopped in the body, a centimeter away from the spine. The bad guy lived because the hollow point didn't have enough penetration. He was probably still able to fight and be a threat. I've also read that the human skin is equatable to 4 inches of muscle tissue due to its elasticity. So that mans that 8 inches of penetration is devoted just to skin (entrance and exit wound), not accounting for bone or organs and tissues of different densities. I've read that hollow points are safer for the bad guy because the under-penetration helps them live. That's true in the example I gave above.
Over penetration is not a realistic issue in my opinion because in most defensive shootings, more rounds are missed than actually hit the target. I'm looking for a cost-effective way to have a store of 9mm ammo at home that I can feel confident will get the job done. I don't want a perfectly placed spine shot slowed down so fast that it never reaches it, which we all know the expansion of the hollow point petals help dump all the energy into the target, as well as hit the brakes. |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
|
#10
|
||||
|
||||
__________________
WTS JL audio 8W7 X2, JL audio 500/1v2, Alpine Ine-940, Stinger Cap!! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...5#post17991865 WTS SIG MPX CARBINE, SIG MPX PISTOL, NIGHTHAWK CUSTOM PREDATOR, Acog in .308! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1186395 |
#11
|
||||
|
||||
What if the bad guys takes cover behind something light, such as a car door or a wooden table?
Guys, this isn't a debate about which round is better. This is a thread, that when EXCLUDING JACKETED HOLLOW POINTS, should have posts that support why a certain bullet profile is better than the others for human targets in a variety of scenarios. Last edited by Grunt81; 06-03-2014 at 8:14 AM.. |
#12
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I would strongly urge you to read this to get an understanding of terminal ballistics: FBI: Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#13
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
No one is debating caliber, we're trying to tell you the premise you've come up with is seriously flawed.
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#14
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Then shoot through the same hole. But if had to choose I would check this out http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php and gauge what Muzzle Energy ft·lb and Muzzle Velocity ft/sec I would want, with what type of projectile I wanted. That being said, for FMJ I would look into maybe something like Buffalo Bore 9mm +P FMJ-FN.
__________________
WTS JL audio 8W7 X2, JL audio 500/1v2, Alpine Ine-940, Stinger Cap!! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...5#post17991865 WTS SIG MPX CARBINE, SIG MPX PISTOL, NIGHTHAWK CUSTOM PREDATOR, Acog in .308! http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1186395 |
#15
|
||||
|
||||
So what you are basically asking is "What is the second best bullet design for self defense?".
__________________
|
#16
|
||||
|
||||
I know were not debating caliber and I've read that FBI publication before. I don't see how it's supporting my premise not being valid if one of the main points is that penetration is key for incapacitation. In the Miami shooting in the 80's, I think they had penetration issues with their rounds which is why the bad guys weren't stopped as soon as they should have been.
Come on buddy. Just think outside the box. If JHP didn't exist, what bullet style would you prefer? |
#17
|
||||
|
||||
Haha! Sure Trenchfoot. What's the second best design? You have anything to offer here?
|
#18
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
|
#19
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
I use modern ammunition in my guns for self defense. Based on gel tests I've seen (as well as AARs of OIS) I'm confident in my choice.
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#20
|
||||
|
||||
__________________
NRA Member The Constitution does not bestow wisdom. It's up to the body politic to be wise. -Patriot All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. -Edmund Burke I'd much rather go to my grave never needing my gun, than go there wishing I had it. - Phil Dalmolin The Battle of Athens was illegal too. |
#21
|
||||
|
||||
If I could not have JHPs, I would probably go with a LSWC
__________________
|
#22
|
||||
|
||||
Hossb7,
It's not a question of being confident in your choice. It's a question of bullet preference when jhp is not an option. I've stated that several times. You should move on to a thread entitled "fmj vs jhp" but this sir, is not it. You're defending a bullet profile that I'm not offending. If you don't have an opinion on bullet choice excluding jhp, please unsubscribe from this thread. Last edited by Grunt81; 06-03-2014 at 8:50 AM.. |
#23
|
||||
|
||||
Nice. Any reason in particular you would choose that over a +P flat nose, and expanding fmj, or a soft point?
I have a storm lake barrel in my Glock 17 which I'm sure can shoot lead. But my brother has a factory barrel in his Glock 34. If there was a situation where he needed to shoot my ammo, the leading would render his firearm in operable. That aside, I've always like the LSWC but have never shot it. |
#24
|
||||
|
||||
Modern JHPs are designed to turn energy into wounding with maximum efficiency through a variety of scenarios and intermediate challenges. (clothes, doors, windshields, fat bastards etc).
You're being very myopic when you consider an instance of a JHP not quite reaching the spine without balancing it against the fact that of the 50% of (thoraic) stops that aren't psychological, the majority will be the result of hypovolemic shock because the CNS is so damned tiny and surrounded by bones. If you want penetration, ball should do you fine. I wouldn't put too much stock in a flat nose in a pistol cartridge, a long *** 460 grain hardcast out of a 45-70 is going to stay nose forward a lot longer than any of the stubby pellets we pewpew out of pistols. It's a bit of a silly question though, since you might shoot 2-500 carry rounds a year, the cost difference to pony up for good JHPs vs cheaper alternatives is a steak dinner per year, which is noise. If you're worried about some sort of scenario that requires you to be shooting at lots of bad guys, then my answer is ball again because if arming the grey ranks fell to me, I'd rather have 7,000 rounds of ball than 6,000 rounds of whatever is slightly crappier than a JHP
__________________
The Range is a place where you carry a gun around and spend most of your time shooting it. The Real World is a place where you carry a gun around and spend most of your time not shooting it. Plan Accordingly. Last edited by DannyZRC; 06-03-2014 at 9:17 AM.. |
#25
|
||||
|
||||
Federal EFMJ. It's a fmj round so it will feet reliably in guns that don't like hollow points, but it has a polymer core that crushes on impact causing it to expand like a hollow point. Best of both worlds right there.
|
#26
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Cost. Availability. Lack of penetration. Lack of performance through intermediate barriers. I know I'm not the only one who's confused about your reasoning, or lack thereof. Also, your signature line says it all. Better to have JHP and not need it than to need it and not have it.
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#27
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
Incapacitation with a handgun is iffy at best, even with the best rounds money can buy. So why even downgrade yourself to save money. My life and the lives of people I am responsible for are much more valuable than any amount of money. |
#28
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
__________________
We in Bangor, Maine now baby. |
#29
|
||||
|
||||
Gentlemen,
Let me make something clear right now. I have Remmington JHP in my magazine right now, in the pistol I keep bedside. I make sure my wife has the same Remm JHP in her Berretta, bedside. I don't think I've ever shot any of the 50 rounds that came in the box. I've never had a need to buy more because, thankfully, I've never had a defensive shooting in my home. Now that that ammo is getting relatively old (about 10-12 years, I'd say), I'm considering shooting it just to see if it functions and will pick up another 50 round box of something premium with better technology. I have no problem paying the price of a steak dinner for my bedside ammo, and of course I agree, I'd shoot a bullet made out of diamonds if it meant protecting the ones I love. So, with that being said. I would love to buy 1000 Hornady XTP's and a 1000 +P rated brass casings. But I will not. I have close to 4,000 9mm brass casings in my home and I'd like to load them up with a copper plated bullet that I can get for about 500 bullets per $45. This is SHTF ammo gents. I can see how I've been vague regarding my intentions for this thread so I apologize for that. So a better question, if you had to mass load a bulk, cheap bullet for a SHTF scenario, which would you choose for human targets, possibly clad in kevlar vests? I'm leaning towards the 124 grain copper plated flat nose. Anybody have other thoughts? |
#30
|
||||
|
||||
M882.
edit: also, don't waste money stockpiling pistol ammo for SHTF. That's what rifle ammo was invented for.
__________________
The Range is a place where you carry a gun around and spend most of your time shooting it. The Real World is a place where you carry a gun around and spend most of your time not shooting it. Plan Accordingly. Last edited by DannyZRC; 06-03-2014 at 10:06 AM.. |
#31
|
|||
|
|||
A rifle round, your not going to find a common 9mm round that will defeat the majority of modern soft body armor.
|
#32
|
||||
|
||||
I don't think it matters. Loaded equally, pretty much any non-hp 9mm is going to pass through, leaving a tiny 9mm hole. It you hit your magic spine shot, they'll all work as well. Sure you could get into semi-exotic bullets but that's defeating your basic premise.
|
#33
|
||||
|
||||
Those are definitely good points. I agree that rifle rounds are much better for an apocalypse type / government disarmament situation for self defense.
But we can't disregard having ammo on hand for our pistols in case a rifle is inoperable or we pass a pistol off to someone on our side who is unarmed. Like said before, a 9mm ball round is better than throwing a rock. But the point of this thread is to get input on bulk, cheap bullets that may or may not have an edge over a similar priced bullet with a different profile. I don't mind the theory, I actually enjoy it. But let's get input on bulk ammo characteristics as a back up plan to a rifle. |
#34
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Finally, I don't think there will be much of a difference in performance between fmj flat point, fmj round nose and LSWC in a 9mm round, so I went with what I could buy the most of.
__________________
|
#35
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
If XTP is too expensive then there really isn't much to say other than just using plated round nose 115 grain. It's a poor stopper, but the plated hollow points don't really expand anyway, it's supposed to increase accuracy. Flat nose bullets or semi wadcutters might have feeding issues depending on the pistol and wouldn't have much of an effect on terminal ballistics. Using 115 grain ammo will increase velocity which is your only friend with ball ammo. Like others have said, pistol rounds are not your end of the world go-to. If you want to have 1000 rounds squirreled away that's fine. But you're right, buying 1000 rounds of XTP just to sit on isn't worthwhile. If it's indeed a priority to have 1000 rounds of 9mm, just go with plated 115 grain. Load it pretty hot to get all the stopping power out of the bullet that you can. You'll probably never need it. Seal the primers, store it in cans and forget about it. That said, if I were to rely on a pistol to get me through a bad situation I'd at least spend the cash on some JHP. You can still use your once fired brass and you'd spend $120 instead of $90 on bullets. Midway has Remmy JHP for $120/1000. You really wouldn't spend the extra $30 for real defensive ammo? If it's just for punching holes in paper, who cares, but $30 is too much for your back up plan? |
#36
|
||||
|
||||
Look up HATCHER FORMULA
__________________
Rule 1- ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED Rule 2 -NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY (including your hands and legs) Rule 3 -KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET Rule 4 -BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT (thanks to Jeff Cooper) |
#37
|
||||
|
||||
Quote:
Personally, I'd foresee myself probably using a magazine with both hollow points and flat points in it for a concealed carry weapon and for SHTF ammo, with exclusively hollow points used in my home for my bedside weapon. This thread has helped me make that decision. With that being said, I believe the flat nose does offer a slight edge in performance vs round nose for the same price, due to larger metplat crushing tissue rather than pushing it aside. "I'll take that slight edge." |
#38
|
|||
|
|||
Quote:
If you want bulk and cheap consider Zero brand JHP. They make 115,124,147gr weights cheap and they are better quality than H,R, or W. |
#39
|
||||
|
||||
I suggested the Rem JHP as an option for a defensive ammo stash. It is cheap, relatively good expansion but far from the best available. Much better than plated or FMJ for defense but not so expensive you'd mind it just collecting dust.
I've done a lot of checking on 9mm and 40 defensive ammo for CCW and home defense. I've come to the conclusion that 115 grain Gold Dot for 9mm and 165 or 180 grain HST for 40 are the best bets for me. Reliable expansion, good penetration without going farther than necessary (More than 18" is not necessary for two legged animals) and a solid track record with police. You seem to be concerned about adequate penetration. Which can be a problem with JHP bullets without a bonded jacket. The bullet can come apart and not expand reliably or not penetrate as far because it is shedding weight. Remington, Winchester, Hydra Shok and other old designs are not bonded. Bonded jacket JHP (Gold Dot, HST, Golden Saber, XTP etc) designs are superior because they have better barrier penetration, more reliable expansion and penetrate farther. I think the 115 grain Gold Dot got 17" in gel after 4 layers of denim IIRC. More than enough. Consider a newer design JHP for your home defense ammo. It will give you an edge if you ever need it. |
#40
|
||||
|
||||
You can't fix cheap.
Use a rifle.
__________________
Randall Rausch AR work: www.ar15barrels.com Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com Barrel, sight and trigger work on most pistols and shotguns. Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and saturday appointments available. |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|