Calguns.net  

Home My iTrader Join the NRA Donate to CGSSA Sponsors CGN Google Search
CA Semiauto Ban(AW)ID Flowchart CA Handgun Ban ID Flowchart CA Shotgun Ban ID Flowchart
Go Back   Calguns.net > FIREARMS DISCUSSIONS > Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 07-21-2018, 10:13 AM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default Finding the best factory ammo

Hi there

I’m not sure this is the correct forum for this question but hoping someone can advise.

I’m doing more long range shooting these days and want to pursue this displine to competition in the near future. I’ve been trying different factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo from a bench to determine which ammo my rifle likes best. My main question is, do you use a rifle sled or some other device to reduce accuracy variables when testing ammo? Thus far I’ve been shooting five or seven round groups at 100 yards but know there is a human factor that could be affecting any potential standard deviation. Determining a good testing technique / base line approach will also help when I start my load development (don’t have all my re loading gear yet).

Thanks for any advice.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-21-2018, 12:27 PM
JackEllis JackEllis is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: NorCal Mountains
Posts: 1,406
iTrader: 13 / 100%
Default

I'm not a great bench shooter but when I was testing new rifles with factory ammunition, it was easy enough to distinguish between rounds the rifle liked and rounds it didn't.

There are posts all over this forum with recommendations for the right kinds of bags to use and the proper technique that I found quite helpful. Get good leather bag with ears for your rear rest and make sure you're in a comfortable position when you shoot. also make sure the trigger isn't too heavy.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-21-2018, 3:05 PM
MongooseV8's Avatar
MongooseV8 MongooseV8 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: East Bay, CA
Posts: 3,267
iTrader: 83 / 100%
Default

I shoot with a bipod and rear bag for load testing, mostly because thats what I use when it matters.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-21-2018, 4:58 PM
baih777 baih777 is offline
CGN/CGSSA Contributor
CGN Contributor
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Torrance
Posts: 3,883
iTrader: 65 / 100%
Default

Depending on which rifle you have. A better trigger sometimes makes a big difference.
A good front bag or tripod shooting rest for the front and a rear bag.
Or a rifle rest. I have both.
I use a rifle rest for semi auto to check loads. Bipod afterwards so I know I need more practice.
__________________
Been gone too long. It's been 15 to 20 years since i had to shelf my guns. Those early years sucked.
I really miss the good old Pomona Gun Shows.
I'm Back.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-21-2018, 9:00 PM
waveslayer's Avatar
waveslayer waveslayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,193
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

If you are planning on reloading then don't worry about how well any factory load groups, unless you are going to keep using it. I'd save the money on ammo you are spending and get all the equipment you need.

Shoot prone , get a good bipod, Harris, atlas, or Evolution bipods, rear squeeze bag, shooting mat, and for sure a chrono. Get the Labradar for your chrono.

Then do some load development, just use the OCW method and you will be good to go.

What rifle are you shooting and what bullets will you be using? What's your twist rate and barrel? Length etc... what stock do you have and bedding? Scope? Please don't say Vortex, jk!

Let me know and we can get you started . My 6.5 Creedmoor shoots lights out with reloads and some factory stuff. I prefer to roll my own though

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-21-2018, 11:56 PM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Yet again I should have been more specific with my details when posting my question - to answer some of “waveslayers” questions:

Running a Tikka T3X CTR 20” in 6.5, MDT chassis (v block bed), Seekins rings with Vortex PST G2, Harris Bipod and rear bag. Been shooting various Hornady (120-147), Win, Fusion, few other types of ammo for testing (mostly 140s). To be honest, groups have been mostly great out to 100 for most all ammo. Maybe I should zero at 200?

I’m slowly aquiring my reloading gear, should have everything in a few months so I’ve been using factory ammo.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-22-2018, 12:19 AM
waveslayer's Avatar
waveslayer waveslayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,193
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

No need to zero at 100. What are the group sizes, what's the velocity look like?

Which bullets do you like?
What's your end game?

Juat curious to best help you out. You have a nice setup.

Groups will open up on you , especially at any distance

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-22-2018, 7:42 AM
Tommy Gun Tommy Gun is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 174
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Hornady Brass, 140gr Eld-Ms, 41.5gr H4350 and CCI LRP gets me 2750 FPS at 10ft and good group's at 100yds and damn near perfect shots at 600yds at Angeles. Best group's of .5 to .75 with my limited experience and bench shooting.

RPR with a Burris XTRII 5x25x50 34mm Atlas Bipod and Rear Monopod. YMMV.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-22-2018, 8:07 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

The best method is a front rest and rear bag. Take the bipod and anything protruding from the forend and buttstock off of the rifle or sling swivels.
The front bag needs to fit the forend and the rear bag needs to fit the buttstock. If the gun is allowed to move laterally in the bags your groups will suffer. The bags also need to be aligned with the target. If the gun is bound up by the bags your groups will show vertical stringing.
THE GUN MUST BE FREE TO MOVE REARWARD!!!!!!!
There are no rules in looking for a good load so you want the bags as heavy as practical. Lead shot or heavy sand work well while rice popcorn and playground sand don't work as well.
Bring a roll of masking tape to the range.
Set up your bags and drop the rifle into them. If your on target great. If your not on target adjust the front bag so you are.
Once the front rest is in the correct position you lift up the buttstock and drop it back down. If it's still on target your good. If it is left or right adjust the rear bag. You don't want any binding of the stock in the bags.
Once this is done mark the front rests position and the rear bags position with tape as often times people will forget the legs on the front rest and it will slide on the bench as will the rear bag.
Next you put the gun in the bags and shoot a three shot group as your baseline.
Using the tape as your guide move the front rest rearward 1 inch and shoot another 3 shot group with the same ammo. You are doing this to find the best spacing for the stock you are using. Flimsier stocks like a short spacing and sturdier stocks like a wider spacing.
You only move the front rest because the rear bag is always set up for your seating position and that never changes.
If your front rest has the points down against the benchtop and it moves between shots put some talcum powder deodorant baby powder or powdered wax on your bags to prevent the stock from sticking.
Mark the rearward side of the forend with tape so you can return the rifle to battery each time you shoot.
If the rifle is lightweight or a real thumper you can pin it into the front bag by resting the backside of your hand on the front rest and pinching the forend with your thumb and first finger. This will allow you to better control the rearward movement and also keeps the gun from jumping upwards.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-22-2018, 9:08 AM
russ69's Avatar
russ69 russ69 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,286
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Lynn has it right...and start reloading ASAP.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:23 AM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Thanks for the insight. I don’t have a crono yet but should barrow one soon, I know that’s part of the puzzle. Rifle seems to like the Hornady 140 EDLs and oddly WIN deer season 125 grn - that combination seemed odd to me. Five round groups are what I believe to be good - usually 4 touching with one off by 1/2” - I can get the occasion “wallet grouping” (one big hole). I do own a more stable tripod style rifle rest for the front which i’ll use on the next outing. My bags are sand filled at the time. I will use these suggestion on my next outing.

Long term goal is to compete and learn more

Yes, I hear the reloading will help just in the process of getting all the gear.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:37 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

If you fire enough rounds you will see the problems with factory ammo.
Reloading gets rid of the fliers by removing the variables but as the distance is increased you need to get more and more concise on your reloading.
The two biggest variations you will see are powder charge and seating depth.
After that better bullets would be third.
After that the returns diminish to the point of a reloading duel between the competitors.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-22-2018, 10:54 AM
ar15barrels's Avatar
ar15barrels ar15barrels is offline
I need a LIFE!!
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Van Nuys
Posts: 44,450
iTrader: 95 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_w View Post
Hi there

I’m not sure this is the correct forum for this question but hoping someone can advise.

I’m doing more long range shooting these days and want to pursue this displine to competition in the near future. I’ve been trying different factory 6.5 Creedmoor ammo from a bench to determine which ammo my rifle likes best. My main question is, do you use a rifle sled or some other device to reduce accuracy variables when testing ammo? Thus far I’ve been shooting five or seven round groups at 100 yards but know there is a human factor that could be affecting any potential standard deviation. Determining a good testing technique / base line approach will also help when I start my load development (don’t have all my re loading gear yet).

Thanks for any advice.
100yds is not really far enough to evaluate ammo for longrange use.
What you are concerned with is ES and that won't show up at such short distance.
Try some 300yd groups.
Clear winners will probably show themselves much more obviously.
__________________
Randall Rausch

AR work: www.ar15barrels.com
Bolt actions: www.700barrels.com
Foreign Semi Autos: www.akbarrels.com
Glock, XD and M&P pistols, Benelli and Remington shotguns: barrel, sight, trigger and receiver work.
Most work performed while-you-wait, evening and weekend appointments available.
Founding member of the CAPRC
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-22-2018, 1:28 PM
waveslayer's Avatar
waveslayer waveslayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,193
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Preloading the bipod works better for most applications, unless you are going for bench rest shooting. Front bags can induce some movement. Loading the bipod will take out any movement with the use of a rear bag

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-26-2018, 1:47 PM
russ69's Avatar
russ69 russ69 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,286
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveslayer View Post
Preloading the bipod works better for most applications, unless you are going for bench rest shooting. Front bags can induce some movement. Loading the bipod will take out any movement with the use of a rear bag
A bipod can bounce off of a hard surface. You can have better results if you put the feet of the bipod on a sand bag.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-26-2018, 3:29 PM
waveslayer's Avatar
waveslayer waveslayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,193
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
A bipod can bounce off of a hard surface. You can have better results if you put the feet of the bipod on a sand bag.
While your statement is true, but not necessarily always true.
I think you guys may have some confusion on what I mean by loading a bipod. I shoot all the time from hard surfaces with no issues, no rifle "jump" . Shooting off a soft surface will help to anchor your bipod to enable you to load it better and more consistently.

Taping off, measuring, whatever was discussed above.. way too much time and overkill. I'll attach a quick video I found of Frank discussing loading a bipod.

I prefer shooting mats with a strap up front so I can load the bipod. That's why it's there. I even screw down a small 2x2 onto benches at some ranges to load the bipod.

Watch this educational video, it will help to explain loading a bipod. I get zero jump when done properly. A good sight alignment , sight picture is key, and most importantly POA, (point of aim) natural POA that is.

https://youtu.be/VjG1JZxiui0

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-28-2018, 1:16 PM
russ69's Avatar
russ69 russ69 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,286
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveslayer View Post
...Watch this educational video, it will help to explain loading a bipod....
I know what loading a bipod is. Loading the bipod helps reduce vertical stringing among other things. It's extremely difficult not to get vertical stringing when shooting off hard surfaces. You may also be aware of the trend to use a shooting bag whenever possible and not using the bipod. The reason for this change is the cause you get better results with a shooting bag. Perhaps not the military solution but that is what I'm seeing.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 07-29-2018, 9:45 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveslayer View Post
While your statement is true, but not necessarily always true.
I think you guys may have some confusion on what I mean by loading a bipod. I shoot all the time from hard surfaces with no issues, no rifle "jump" . Shooting off a soft surface will help to anchor your bipod to enable you to load it better and more consistently.

Taping off, measuring, whatever was discussed above.. way too much time and overkill. I'll attach a quick video I found of Frank discussing loading a bipod.

I prefer shooting mats with a strap up front so I can load the bipod. That's why it's there. I even screw down a small 2x2 onto benches at some ranges to load the bipod.

Watch this educational video, it will help to explain loading a bipod. I get zero jump when done properly. A good sight alignment , sight picture is key, and most importantly POA, (point of aim) natural POA that is.

https://youtu.be/VjG1JZxiui0

My wife thinks I only have 3 guns

The OP is seeking the best factory ammunition for his rifle and the best way to find that is by shooting off of a bench.
If putting a piece of masking tape on the forend or benchtop is considered difficult maybe shooting a rifle is not your sport?
In Frank's video he claims the gun doesn't jump yet his first shot fired shows the gun jumping up in the air?
When that happens don't you need to reposition the feet and then reload the bipod?
I ask because masking tape was a difficult concept.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 07-29-2018, 10:08 AM
waveslayer's Avatar
waveslayer waveslayer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,193
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The OP is seeking the best factory ammunition for his rifle and the best way to find that is by shooting off of a bench.
If putting a piece of masking tape on the forend or benchtop is considered difficult maybe shooting a rifle is not your sport?
In Frank's video he claims the gun doesn't jump yet his first shot fired shows the gun jumping up in the air?
When that happens don't you need to reposition the feet and then reload the bipod?
I ask because masking tape was a difficult concept.
Sounds like people questioning masking tape has set you off, maybe taking dissenting opinions is not your sport.

I would retire from responding then if it hurts your feelings so much. And yes I agree his first shot did jump.

When you properly load a bipod , I don't have to reposition my rifles. I'm able to spot about 95% of my hits, even with some larger calibers, .338's, non muzzle braked rifles, etc.

As for testing factory ammo, it's a matter of getting the fundamentals down, otherwise you are inducing human error.

Bags have the issue of shift their stuffing, beans, sand, bean bag fill, plastic beads, whatever you fill yours with, it will shift over time and with the recoil, human weight from a proper cheek weld position and your natural point of aim. So that right there will induce having to reposition yourself.

Having a firm loaded bipod eliminates a lot of movement and jump. If some properly then you should be able to spot every hit.

And shooting isn't sport, need a lesson let me know , I can add your to our class we will be having soon on positional shooting.

I don't mean that to kick you when you are down, just don't make funny statements about shooting not being my sort, LOL that's pretty funny actually.

Then we can see how well masking tape works when you aren't just shooting off a bench or prone.


My wife thinks I only have 3 guns
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 07-29-2018, 10:50 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Everyone who shoots small groups does it off of a bench not a bipod.
It's called Benchrest Shooting for a reason and bipods are allowed but none are ever used. They are never used because they are not accurate enough.
I will pass on your classes because I have masking tape mastered already and you struggle with the concept.
I am trying to answer the OP question on finding the best ammo for his rifle and loading a bipod and watching it jump on the video you provided isn't doing that.
Your setting him back not propelling him forward.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 07-29-2018, 11:49 AM
3RDGEARGRNDRR's Avatar
3RDGEARGRNDRR 3RDGEARGRNDRR is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 904
iTrader: 4 / 100%
Default

OP, when you say you wish to shoot "long range competition", exactly which Competition are you considering and are you doing it for fun, or do you plan on winning?

I have a custom 6mmBR off Savage action that is a scalpel but it really does not like me touching it at all when shooting it.
It also literally takes me 2 hours to load 6 rounds of with nearly zero variability in regards to every dimension and component. (OCD really kicks in)- if you are willing to call 90+% of your Lapua brass and bergers scrap, then by all means get into competition

Plinking a squirrel in the eyeball at 400 yds is very easy. I dont really find myself enamored to that gun or loading for it at all. Any nut behind the trigger can make one hole with a rest and clovers with the bipod. And I still can't compete with the best of them...
__________________
CA: Exorcising my 2A rights
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 07-29-2018, 2:05 PM
russ69's Avatar
russ69 russ69 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,286
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Everyone who shoots small groups does it off of a bench not a bipod.
It's called Benchrest Shooting for a reason and bipods are allowed but none are ever used. They are never used because they are not accurate enough.
I will pass on your classes because I have masking tape mastered already and you struggle with the concept.
I am trying to answer the OP question on finding the best ammo for his rifle and loading a bipod and watching it jump on the video you provided isn't doing that.
Your setting him back not propelling him forward.
Particularly concise, Lynn.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 07-29-2018, 4:49 PM
Stumpfenhammer Stumpfenhammer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Non-permissive environment
Posts: 568
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
Everyone who shoots small groups does it off of a bench not a bipod.
It's called Benchrest Shooting for a reason and bipods are allowed but none are ever used. They are never used because they are not accurate enough.
I will pass on your classes because I have masking tape mastered already and you struggle with the concept.
I am trying to answer the OP question on finding the best ammo for his rifle and loading a bipod and watching it jump on the video you provided isn't doing that.
Your setting him back not propelling him forward.
Hi Lynn: Not trying to be right here or question your knowledge (I can assume from your sig that you have deep knowledge of the subject) but I'd like to add another perspective. You probably are right about benchrest and bags etc. That said, from personal experience, you can shoot very tight groups (sub .30 MOA, 5-shot) by loading a bipod, and shooters in PRS matches do it on a regular basis.

Is that good enough for 1,000 yard benchrest? I assume not. But what it does give you (especially with a soft shooting round like 6.5CM, and assuming good position and NPOA) is the ability to spot your own rounds due to maintaining eyes on target through recoil, which is critical when you don't have a spotter and are on the clock.

Loading a bipod correctly is a learned skill so bags might be the best way for a newbie to verify accuracy, but for my needs loading the bipod gives me enough stability to verify accuracy between loads, with less futzing. I also care about how a load shoots in the field, where i don't expect to be able to free recoil, and most of my field shooting is done with the stock pulled and/or pushed into my shoulder, so verifying accuracy the way I plan to shoot makes sense for me.

I think you guys are both right, just coming from different perspectives, and in your case, the higher precision/accuracy standard of benchrest competition.

Thanks for the masking tape trick.
__________________
FOR SALE - Orange County

• Oehler 35P Chrono - NiB $399
• Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM
• Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2
• Proof Research Carbon Fiber barrels for DTA SRS, various calibers (new)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 07-29-2018, 5:16 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

The OP is looking for the best factory ammo he can find and in his original post he said he was shooting from a bench.
Bipods are accurate and the guys at our 2000 yard matches use them alot but they are not the best way to test for guilt edge accuracy when your a newbie as the OP has posted.
If you go to the long distance forum there is a post looking for suggestions on what to use for a front rest.
Switchbarrel has responded to that thread and recommended the same gear as I have. He is a National Champion Benchrest shooter at both 600 and 1000 yards plus he shoots F-Class from time to time if I remember correctly?
If he or I thought a bipod would have been the better choice we would have recommended it but neither of us did that.
I use bipods on my hunting rifles but I still test my loads using a front rest.
And 0.3 moa as an aggregate of 30 or 60 rounds is very good shooting. If it's a single target then it isn't good enough.
The idea here is to point shooters in a positive direction but to also let those not posting know what works best as well if that makes sense?
If his rifle is wearing a bipod attached to a sling swivel he can purchase a plate called an Accuracy Asset that keeps the rifle from torquing in the front bag.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 07-29-2018, 5:48 PM
russ69's Avatar
russ69 russ69 is online now
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 9,286
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumpfenhammer View Post
...can shoot very tight groups (sub .30 MOA, 5-shot) by loading a bipod, and shooters in PRS matches do it on a regular basis...
I doubt you can agg .30 MOA (5-5 shot groups), if you can post it so we can see it. I'll STH up if that's the case and if it is, that is very good shooting. You should sling up and hit the national matches.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 07-29-2018, 5:55 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Yeah I think the current 5 shot group at 1000 yards is 1.068 inches with an improved 6BR cartridge and Vapor Trail bullets.
That should be just about 0.1 moa at 100.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 07-29-2018, 5:56 PM
Stumpfenhammer Stumpfenhammer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Non-permissive environment
Posts: 568
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The OP is looking for the best factory ammo he can find and in his original post he said he was shooting from a bench.

The idea here is to point shooters in a positive direction but to also let those not posting know what works best as well if that makes sense?
Yes, that makes sense and I think that goal has been achieved both by your posts and the alternate perspective.

If I had a point it was that the "right" answer is a moving target based on the perspective of who answers and the shooter's intended implementation.

For instance, the OP's rifle seems set up for PRS matches and he asked about factory ammunition. If I was handloading and planning for benchrest glory I'd likely follow your advice to the letter. For me, in the same scenario, loading the bipod did fine to determine which factory load worked best for my rifles).

So for the OP's stated purpose (factory loads) assuming he is either plinking or competing PRS-style off a bipod, I say a properly loaded bipod will get the job done until he gets close to breaking into top 15 in a major PRS match.

TLDR: A good rest is required to achieve ultimate accuracy. A properly loaded bipod provides acceptable stability to test factory ammunition for long range-fun and/or shooting PRS at a novice to intermediate level.
__________________
FOR SALE - Orange County

• Oehler 35P Chrono - NiB $399
• Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM
• Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2
• Proof Research Carbon Fiber barrels for DTA SRS, various calibers (new)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 07-30-2018, 11:05 AM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

https://youtu.be/qZQ_4ZCoAp0

Unfortunately this is my perception of 95% of the shooters using a bipod off of a bench.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 07-30-2018, 1:26 PM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: not in CA
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

It's also the perception of a lot of shooters that Remingtons are not so good, the subject of the video.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 07-30-2018, 7:55 PM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Just got back from vacation and checked on the thread - WOW lots of good info and debate. I’d like to eventually do some PRS style competition and see where it goes from there. There are plenty of friend matches for bragging rights these days as I get more practice. Yes the rifle has a bipod but I find myself mostly using my non mounted padded tripod rest with a rear bag most of the time. I place the tripod closer magwell than the end of barrel. I use this with a rear bag from a bench as my baseline. Since I’ve been shooting a wide variety of ammo my goal is to determine a consistent factory load as a starting point, which I believe will help once I start reloading. My groups have been great when I do my part with the occasional clover but I tend to get the flyer which is likely me or could be the ammo. Regardless, I’m very excited about the rifles performance and the sport but like any competitor I’m trying to reduce variables while seeking optimal performance.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 07-30-2018, 9:20 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

When your looking for the best ammo dump the bipod and the tripod for a front rest.

SigStroker
You should never buy anything Remington ever. But if you ever do buy a rifle I would love to shoot with you using your gun and me shooting a Remington.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 07-30-2018, 9:27 PM
Stumpfenhammer Stumpfenhammer is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Non-permissive environment
Posts: 568
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
https://youtu.be/qZQ_4ZCoAp0

Unfortunately this is my perception of 95% of the shooters using a bipod off of a bench.
Lol. I concede.
__________________
FOR SALE - Orange County

• Oehler 35P Chrono - NiB $399
• Complete set of reloading equipment plus dies for 338 LM
• Desert Tactical Arms SRS rifles - Gen 1 and Gen 2
• Proof Research Carbon Fiber barrels for DTA SRS, various calibers (new)
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:04 PM
rm1911's Avatar
rm1911 rm1911 is offline
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Soviet Socialist Republic of Kalifornia
Posts: 3,764
iTrader: 19 / 100%
Default Finding the best factory ammo

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post

I ask because masking tape was a difficult concept.

Third grade was tough for me.

There won’t be a best factory ammo. Every rifle is different. Factory ammo is an averaging of variables. Most “match” ammo will be decent. Won’t beat custom loaded ammo.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
__________________
NRA Life Member since 1990

They're not liberals, they're leftists. Please don't use the former for the latter. Liberals are Locke, Jefferson, Burke, Hayek. Leftists are progressives, Prussian state-socialists, fascists. Liberals stand against the state and unequivocally support liberty. Leftists support state tyranny.


Last edited by rm1911; 07-30-2018 at 10:07 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 07-30-2018, 10:35 PM
sigstroker sigstroker is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: not in CA
Posts: 5,705
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
SigStroker
You should never buy anything Remington ever.
I was just about to go out and buy one, but now I won't.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 07-31-2018, 12:13 AM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

LynnJr

When you mention “front rest” are you referring to bags / rests like “Wiebad” and “SAP” ...? Sorry for my ignorance but I’m still getting my lingo down.

I’m starting to test “match grade” ammo now, mostly Hornady stuff. I’m trying to get / barrow / rent something to measure muzzle velocity at the moment.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 07-31-2018, 8:50 AM
newbutold newbutold is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: CA
Posts: 314
iTrader: 0 / 0%
Default

I use sand bags and not small ones. Material sample bags filled to your liking make good ones.
__________________
"Although he was elected as a Republican, the president shows little affinity for ideals long espoused by conservatives: free minds, free markets and free people."

In spite of his lack of honesty, morals, ethics, and class, Donald was the better candidate at the time.

Only witches fear witch hunts, cast insults and dismiss real news reporting.

Yes, the FBI investigates crimes and crooks go to jail.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 07-31-2018, 10:07 AM
diver160651's Avatar
diver160651 diver160651 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,409
iTrader: 40 / 100%
Default Finding the best factory ammo

Quote:
Originally Posted by chris_w View Post
LynnJr

When you mention “front rest” are you referring to bags / rests like “Wiebad” and “SAP” ...? Sorry for my ignorance but I’m still getting my lingo down.

I’m starting to test “match grade” ammo now, mostly Hornady stuff. I’m trying to get / barrow / rent something to measure muzzle velocity at the moment.


FYI He is not talking about field bags.

Field bags like Weibad and SAP are known for their light styrene fill and some heavier poly pellets, used primarily in positional shooting. These along with Pump Pillows, Game Changers, Warhorse and Fortune Cooke’s and hundreds more are meant to fill body gaps, stratal fences or other obstacles.

These are the best tools for the job for positional, but none ideal as front rest.. the Original Game Changer would be the best of that particular bunch as a front bag on a bench.. not ideal, but better than the others.

These bags just are not designed for the bench and do not have the dense sand fills, shapes and that’s not even addressing the features of a front rest.

By the way:: I am NOT a benchrest guy. I do use or have many of the bags I mentioned.

If your interested in shooting off a bipod and also off obstacles and bags.. be careful how you interpret “load the bipod”. Most people using/needing things to keep their bipod from sliding when they load the gun, like the strips mentioned on a shooting mat, tend to create offsets between the overloaded bipod and any other positional shooting.

I think if one is having trouble with really solid fundamentals of shooting, they should use a rest, if you’re a BR guy of course too.

If you’re into a discipline like BR/F-class where you might loose by .1” or into ELR, hand loading is key, as other have said.

For what’s it is worth, in other types of shooting, some that you seem to be considering, like positional (NRL, PRS and a ton of other field matches) you can absolutely have fun, place well and even win using factory ammo. These matches are mostly about the Indian and bow, not the arrow.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
__________________
D.I.Y. a Target Cam for ELR
NOTE: images not all working correctly due to limitations on the site

D.I.Y. Barricade simulator using RRS tripod.

Last edited by diver160651; 07-31-2018 at 10:27 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 07-31-2018, 11:31 AM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Thanks for the info
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 07-31-2018, 8:36 PM
LynnJr LynnJr is offline
Calguns Addict
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 6,103
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

ChrisW
A front rest can be a mechanical rest with a bag affixed to it or it can be the legs off of a couple pairs of jeans filled with sand and sewn shut.
A big bag of dogfood will work in a pinch.
The idea is to have the rifle held on a steady platform that still allows it to recoil without restriction.
A 50 pound bag of rice would make an excellent front rest and a vice mounted to a bench would make a horrible front rest.
The bag of rice will easily conform to the rifles shape while still allowing it to freely recoil.
The vice will hold the rifle but won't allow it to recoil this killing accuracy.
I have a Remington model 700 PSS in 308 and it likes PMC 150 grain hunting loads better than federal gold medal match so try a wide variety of factory loads that meet your ballistic requirements.
I won two matches in 2017 shooting off of a 50 pound sack of Milo animal feed in a cloth sack.
__________________
Lynn Dragoman, Jr.
Southwest Regional Director
Unlimited Range Shooters Association (URSA)
www.unlimitedrange.org
Not a commercial business.
URSA - Competition starts at 2000 yards!
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 07-31-2018, 11:41 PM
chris_w chris_w is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 233
iTrader: 7 / 100%
Default

Makes sense - thanks
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 8:18 PM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Proudly hosted by GeoVario the Premier 2A host.
Calguns.net, the 'Calguns' name and all associated variants and logos are ® Trademark and © Copyright 2002-2018, Calguns.net an Incorporated Company All Rights Reserved.
Calguns.net and The Calguns Foundation have no affiliation and are in no way related to each other.
All opinions, statements and remarks made by Calguns.net on this web site and elsewhere are solely attributable to Calguns.net.