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  #1  
Old 02-08-2011, 9:31 AM
Rogervm Rogervm is offline
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Default Making Rifleman with a bolt action?

Hello,
I've signed up the wife and I for the Appleseed in April in Castro Valley. I've been shooting for years but have no illusions about being any type of wonderful marksman, although I'm hot stuff compared to some of the 20-somethings I see showing up at the local range with their mallninja'd ARs. My wife has almost zero firearms experience.

I am very much looking forward to having some real marksmanship instruction. I mostly shoot rimfire bench rest non-competitively for fun. I was never in the Military and other than the hunter safety class I took as a kid 40 years ago I've had no 4 position training at all. I read what I can but that's a far cry from a live instructor.

I know it's going to take more than one try to make rifleman but I plan to keep at it until I do. My question is this (you mean this guy finally got to his question?) Is it reasonable to expect to eventually make rifleman with a bolt gun or should I think about buying a semi-auto at some point? I've got a couple of CZ .22's we're going to use. They're very accurate so the rifles won't hold me back. I'm just worried about the timed portions. I've never tried anything like that.

Opinions?

From what I've been able to read the course of fire involves changing positions during the shot string. Is that correct? What is the exact shot/time sequence? I was unable to find it online.



Thanks, Roger
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  #2  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:21 AM
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I had the same bolt gun fears that you express, and I wimped out and purchased a Ruger 10/22.

I scored Rifleman on the first scored target on Saturday.
I have since bettered my scores using a bolt action rimfire that is mag fed.

Bolt action is not a problem if you are able to smoothly work the action. A bit more challenging, but don't let that scare you.

Put a front sling swivel mount on that rifle before you go to Appleseed.

Shot sequence:
Standing, 10 rounds, 2 minutes
Start standing, transition to seated/kneeling, load, 10 shots 55 seconds (using 2 magazines)
Start standing, transition to prone, load, 10 shots 65 seconds (using 2 magazines)
Start prone, stay prone, load, 10 shots, 5 minutes.
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Old 02-08-2011, 10:46 AM
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I got my patch with a lever gun, so I think you shouldn't have too much trouble. Npoa is very important, especially when you have to break your grip and cheek weld after every shot. Focus on getting consistent grip and cheek weld, and it's not a big deal. Have fun!
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2011, 2:55 PM
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I took my mossberg 44us. I didn't have much experienc with bolt actions then. Also the magazine only holds 7 so on one of the stages I had to do an extra drop that people with 10 rounders did not. This made me hurry my shots and you just can't do that. I think I scored a 199 with the Mossberg. I then reached for my 10/22 and scored rifleman. If you are comfortable with cycling the bolt. Go for it!!!
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Old 02-08-2011, 3:07 PM
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With the Mossberg M44US using 7 round magazines, your mag prep is 3&7 when they call for 2&8. Discuss with your Line Boss so they are aware of what you are doing.
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Old 02-08-2011, 4:08 PM
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I almost went for it with my Mossberg 44 which I had because it was the most accurate of the 2 rifles that I bought but I chicken out at the last moment and used my Ruger 10/22. Sad part is that I'm more accurate with the Mossberg 44 then I am with my Ruger. I say go for it if you have practice.

Last edited by semitch; 02-09-2011 at 3:44 PM..
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Old 02-08-2011, 5:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock6.3 View Post
With the Mossberg M44US using 7 round magazines, your mag prep is 3&7 when they call for 2&8. Discuss with your Line Boss so they are aware of what you are doing.
Its been two years since I did it but I think there was one stage that you just loaded a full 10 rounds in the mag but yes I had to do the 3&7 like you said for the others.
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Old 02-08-2011, 8:33 PM
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Good info guys....good to know.
Im planning on taking my Mossberg M44's with me to the next Escondido shoot. Is it better to load the mags 7&3 or 5&5? This is my firsh Appleseed, so I was just wondering.....
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Old 02-08-2011, 9:19 PM
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This is all good advice. Bolt guns it is!

Thank You all Gentlemen for the advice.

Roger
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  #10  
Old 02-09-2011, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccandgc View Post
Good info guys....good to know.
Im planning on taking my Mossberg M44's with me to the next Escondido shoot. Is it better to load the mags 7&3 or 5&5? This is my firsh Appleseed, so I was just wondering.....
Load probably does not matter with a bolt action, but the objective is to have the mag change take place on the same target in seated, thus permitting a check of your re-established NPOA following the mag change. A bolt action will break your NPOA with every cycle of the bolt, making this less of a teaching/learning moment.

Key: Learn to cycle the bolt without moving anything other than your bolt hand/arm, be sure to keep the trigger elbow in place for prone/seated. Keep the check weld, stay in the sights. In prone this will likely require that you lean towards the bolt hand and dip the muzzle. Practice this at home without ammo (dry practice) until the motion is smooth and fluid. A bit of gun grease on the bolt body will smooth the bolt travel and help the process for the M44US.

During your Applessed event: Be sure to check the bolt body after each set of targets to ensure that it has not begun to unscrew. If it unscrews you will get lighter firing pin strikes and potential failure to fire. Not dangerous, but very irritating during a timed course of fire.

Can Appleseed Rifleman scores be delivered by an old worn out bolt action M44US? Yes, my score is 239.
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:25 AM
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Thanks for the reply!
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Old 02-09-2011, 6:29 PM
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This makes me want to go try a bolt gun qual!
Awesome info Rock6.3
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Old 02-10-2011, 4:31 PM
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Just keeping the discussion going.....
What is the procedure when using something like the Nylon 66, or other tube fed magazines?
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Old 02-10-2011, 4:40 PM
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it's doable with a bolt gun within the time limits. I shot it last year with a single shot right hand bolt and i shoot lefty (.22). slow is smooth, smooth is fast. helps if you have a loading block next to you. definitely doable if it's mag fed. as stated before, the less movement you impart, the more consistent your natural point of aim.

tube feds, add an extra round and eject one to simulate a mag change.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:55 PM
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Someone beat me to it, I had a shooter as Escondido who shot a 223 or 225 rifleman score with a single shot bolt .22lr with peep sights, so it can be done. Having a excellent riflemans cadence will be key though.
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  #16  
Old 02-16-2011, 10:29 PM
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The use of a bolt-action is what worried me at first, as I have a K31 with a 6rnd box mag and chargers/strippers. I'll probably go to the range and put a few hundred rounds through it before I sign up to get a better feel for it and timing.
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:22 AM
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The only thing is, after you've been to an Appleseed (or any other formal rifle class), you'll kick yourself for wasting all that ammo.

Don't go to Appleseed determined to get your patch on the first try. Very few people do. What we'll do is show you how to practice on your own time, and then you can come back for little corrections and to pick up the things that didn't make sense the first time.

If you've got a truckload of 7.5x55 ammo, of course, feel free to disregard.
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Old 02-17-2011, 8:33 AM
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^^680 rounds to practice with.
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Old 02-17-2011, 9:20 AM
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^^680 rounds to practice with.
A two day Appleseed will take 400+ rounds. Don't know what you are paying for your center fire ammo. It costs about $.50 a round to feed my M1 (CMP surplus). If you go to 2 Appleseeds at that price you could buy a .22, Tech Sights or scope, and a few bricks of .22 ammo. And then you have another rifle Once you shoot Rifleman with a .22 go for it with the K31 and every thing in the safe!
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Old 02-17-2011, 1:41 PM
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A two day Appleseed will take 400+ rounds. Don't know what you are paying for your center fire ammo. It costs about $.50 a round to feed my M1 (CMP surplus). If you go to 2 Appleseeds at that price you could buy a .22, Tech Sights or scope, and a few bricks of .22 ammo. And then you have another rifle Once you shoot Rifleman with a .22 go for it with the K31 and every thing in the safe!
I've been pricing out 10/22s actually. Maybe instead of ammo, I'll add another firearm/caliber to the collection.
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  #21  
Old 02-21-2011, 8:53 AM
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Default Bolt actions...

I'm a little late to this party.... I was @ Appleseed all weekend! Saturday I shot my 1st "Rifleman" score (222) with my trusty Marlin. On Sunday, one of the instructors loaned me an M-44 with 2 7-round mags, and I was able to shoot a 210, despite never having run a bolt gun before. So yeah, it is doable.
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:11 AM
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So, to re-hash an old post...

Since I shoot off my left shoulder and have a RH CZ 452, am I going to be at a severe disadvantage?

Wouldn't mind adding another rifle to the stable such as the Marlin 795 if the LH/RH thing would a big issue...
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Old 08-11-2011, 3:05 PM
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i don't think that it would be a severe disadvantage, but definitely challenging. i'm a lefty and shot it with my RH single action. if you mounted a scope, you need to be able to clear your LH to work the bolt. shot mine with iron sights, so coming over was not that much of an issue. Mag fed is always nice. just need to get into a rhythm when working the action, cadence is key.
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Old 08-11-2011, 3:14 PM
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i don't think that it would be a severe disadvantage, but definitely challenging. i'm a lefty and shot it with my RH single action. if you mounted a scope, you need to be able to clear your LH to work the bolt. shot mine with iron sights, so coming over was not that much of an issue. Mag fed is always nice. just need to get into a rhythm when working the action, cadence is key.
Thanks. I'm more used to running the bolt with my RH (more bench shooting than anything else) and realize the sling would probably not allow that.

I'm looking into a .22LR conversion for my LH AR now...
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Old 08-12-2011, 12:29 AM
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You will want to learn to run the bolt with your trigger hand, and that goes for whatever hand that is and whatever rifle you're using. One trick I show AR users is to use the pull handle rather than the bolt release after a magazine change -- you can keep the rifle shouldered and on your support hand that way, only giving up your cheek weld. For a left-handed person, however, you can reach the magazine release with your trigger hand and can keep the cheek weld.

But if it's a left-handed person shooting a left-handed AR, you're in the same boat...

Anyway, it will be slightly harder but it won't be a big deal. But far be it from me to discourage you from getting another .22!
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:10 PM
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I've been thinking about trying my first Appleseed with my FWB 2602 (single shot match rifle) but I'm just not that sure about using a single shot when I'm being timed...the ar22 may not be nearly as accurate but its mag fed so I guess I'll use it as my primary. It might be fun to try it out once I've done my first; I won't be as nervous and I'll have a better idea of what to work on.
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Old 08-17-2011, 10:30 PM
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I'd keep it simple. You really don't need super accuracy, and as you note, you can always leave that as a challenge for next time.
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Old 08-18-2011, 8:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by as_rocketman View Post
You will want to learn to run the bolt with your trigger hand, and that goes for whatever hand that is and whatever rifle you're using. One trick I show AR users is to use the pull handle rather than the bolt release after a magazine change -- you can keep the rifle shouldered and on your support hand that way, only giving up your cheek weld. For a left-handed person, however, you can reach the magazine release with your trigger hand and can keep the cheek weld.

But if it's a left-handed person shooting a left-handed AR, you're in the same boat...

Anyway, it will be slightly harder but it won't be a big deal. But far be it from me to discourage you from getting another .22!
Thanks.

Nothing wrong with collecting more firearms!

I've run my AR through Frontsight's rifle course and have added a couple of things for my 'off-handed-ness' to make it easier. No problems except the frequent comments 'your ejection port is on the wrong side!'
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