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Survival and Preparations Long and short term survival and 'prepping'.

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  #1  
Old 07-26-2018, 3:17 PM
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Default Off grid living... electrical? Water?

Any of you folks off the grid completely or partially?

I see some really nice homes in some awesome places, but the off grid thing kind of spooks me to say the least. Any experiences and pros/cons of solar with generator backup or hauled water appreciated.

Thanks,
Lance
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Old 07-26-2018, 6:14 PM
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Off grid power costs 2 to 3 times of grid power. Never consider a place without ample water, surface water.

Wells deeper than a 150 feet and less than 20 gallons a minute are a pain.

Unless you are a engineer-mechanic-welder-carpenter, farmer, don't do it.

Last edited by KevinB; 07-26-2018 at 9:18 PM..
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Old 07-26-2018, 6:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinB View Post
Off grid power costs 2 to 3 times of grid power. Never consider a place without ample water, surface water.

Wells deeper than a 150 feet and 20 gallons a minute are a pain.

Unless you are a engineer-mechanic-welder-carpenter, farmer, don't do it.
Why does off-grid power cost more Kevin?

I am a hack engineer, I overdo anything but I can figure stuff out. And I have been a carpenter, mechanic, electrician, HVAC guy my entire life. But I'm 56 and I don't want to spend my entire time servicing the place.
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Old 07-26-2018, 7:27 PM
FISHNFRANK FISHNFRANK is offline
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I have an off grid cabin that I probably spend 1/2 my time at. It’s doable, just keep things simple. But it does cost money and if your not skilled, you need at least a good handyman.
1) you need a well and generator to pump water. Drilling a well is expensive, best to buy an exitisting property with one.
2) I use a Kholer home backup generator 8500 watts for those intermittant power needs. It’s hooked to a 500 gallon propane tank.
3) I have a 2850 gallon water tank. Many go with 5000 gal. It’s a gravity feed to the house.
4) for routine power like lights, charging devices etc, I have 7 - 100 watt solar panels and 4 batteries.

Once everything was set up my only expenses are property taxes, insurance, propane costs. Occasionally I have to replace a battery. This is NOT a full time residence. You’d need a more expensive generator, more solar panels and batteries for that. The initial outlay for a full time place for those might be 30-40k. All-in my energy outlay was maybe 10-12k. I only spend 1000-1200 a year on propane. A full time house would triple that. So Cal gets gouged for propane...

Frank

Last edited by FISHNFRANK; 07-26-2018 at 7:35 PM..
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Old 07-26-2018, 7:27 PM
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I have a Farm-vineyard. I have grid power- solar-gen set- and a battery backup.

It is a 18 KV peak solar system and has huge battery backup. The grid power at my place goes out when the humidity changes. You never get 100 % solar output, never.

I run everything on the ranch with the system and don't have to pick and chose. By the time you build the system, fuel, maintenance, and battery replacement it costs 2 to 3 times what grid power does.

Water system requires a separate 6 kv gen set on demand just to run the well and water system. More maintenance. A wife without water is a dangerous thing.

Good battery chargers and inverters cost a ton of money and you always have to have couple of spares sitting on the shelf.

Saying that, I wouldn't have it any other way, but grid is my first choice.

Remember, I can write off everything for the vineyard.

I built my whole system and it cost about 90 grand. It costs a couple of grand on average a year to maintain it. My solar panel mounts are self adjusting units. I built them.
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Old 07-26-2018, 7:39 PM
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I get what you guys are saying, thank you, and yeah I was looking at places that are already functioning off grid. I've got the handyman part covered, I am a licensed and skilled builder and have spent a good portion of my time in mountainous regions. None of that stuff is unfamiliar to me... except wells, I know virtually nothing about them.
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Old 07-26-2018, 7:41 PM
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I've done it a few times in different states and it really depends on where you're at and how far you are away from the closest town because that helps if your getting things delivered or have to go to town a lot but there are ways to do it on the cheap..

In Hawaii you can use the rainfall during some parts of the year, in some areas, as your water supply. You buy a cheap but sturdy above ground rubber lined pool and catch the rain water ( maybe even run off from your roof although that can be more dirty.) then you add a little bleach and keep it covered with a tarp to keep Critters and leaves out when it's not raining and then you have your showering and clothes washing water.

If you get a property with a running stream you could do the same in California.

I much preferred a solar set up even if it's a small one over a generator but you really strive for and eventually have both just in case something happens where you need power.
Out in the woods even with a nice little cabin the rule "two is one and one is none" really applies.

If you can live with low electrical usage then you can build a pretty inexpensive reliable solar panel system that isn't complex or hard to work on if you need a new battery or two or even the solar control panel.

If you live near a running stream you could even install a small hydroelectric unit. But the two things about living in the woods without power and pumped in water that people don't always think about are...

You're going to need money out there to keep buying supplies to feed yourself to keep buying items because they break because they are usually expose a little bit more to the elements then the same item if it had been stored in a house with a shed in the city so you just need money for constant maintenance.

And the second part is you're not going to have a service repairman drive way out in the boonies so you're going to have to be doing most of those repairs on those worn out items which adds up to a lot of hard work as well as having some kind of Steady income or large savings to draw from to pay for everything.

If it wasn't hard back-breaking work were you needed money to do it I think more people would be living in nature / the woods.


That said, please don't think that I'm trying to discourage Anyone from doing it.

It's worth every ache at the end of most days, where you go to bed very tired and the happiness you find in simple things like even lukewarm coffee can be delicious.

Last edited by sealocan; 07-26-2018 at 7:53 PM..
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  #8  
Old 07-26-2018, 7:44 PM
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Originally Posted by ACfixer View Post
I get what you guys are saying, thank you, and yeah I was looking at places that are already functioning off grid. I've got the handyman part covered, I am a licensed and skilled builder and have spent a good portion of my time in mountainous regions. None of that stuff is unfamiliar to me... except wells, I know virtually nothing about them.
Make sure you get a pro to assess your well. Never ever trust the land owner-seller.

You can tell a pro built system. If it looks bad, it is.
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Old 07-26-2018, 10:39 PM
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I have been living for one month now in a completely off grid home in the Pacific northwest. It is a home we had built for us after searching for years for just the right property. I would love to do a write up on it sometime but it's going to take a while to unpack from moving before I can get around to a decent write up.

It took a lot of research to figure out how to best manage issues related to an off grid and independent power supply. I wanted to have a home where it was not obvious we were off grid in that we would seem to have all the conveniences of an on grid home but were in fact stealthily being very power efficient.

In off grid living, it is always cheaper to use less energy than to buy a bigger battery or more solar panels. Every off grid system is unique to the geographical location and needs of the household. The place to start is with taking an inventory of all the electrical devices you use and start creating an energy needs profile. There are various spreadsheets online to help you do this.


Once you figure out your power needs, you can figure out how much battery capacity you might need and how many solar panels to keep the system going. It was suggested to me that we aim for a system big enough to supply three days of autonomy during the winter months where the days are the shortest and with the most cloud cover. It is likely we will need to use our generator top off the batteries from time to time come this winter but in the summer time, with our long days, we generate more power than we can use.

Since electricity is terribly inefficient at heating, we use propane to heat our water and cook with and to run a clothes dryer. We have propane forced air furnace as a back up for winter time heat but our main heat will come from our wood cookstove.

Our battery has 845 amp hours capacity and is a 48 volt system for efficiency. Our peak power needs top out close to 4000 watts based on our power audit so we have an 8000 watt inverter so it is never running near maximum rated capacity which should make it last longer.

We pump water from a depth of 80 feet using a very efficient Grundfoss Solar pump into two 3,000 gallon storage tanks. We use a very efficient Dankoff booster pump to charge the pressure tank which gives us good water pressure. Our well puts out over 20gpm not that we would ever need it but it's a good well.

It's all fun right now with our long days of sunlight but come winter, we'll get a better feel for how it all works with short days of sunlight and days of thick cloud cover.

off grid Solar is not cheap and it's easier to live grid connected but having the option of developing an off grid power system allowed us to live in a beautiful rural location on a large property with wonderful views, no neighbors and only the sounds of nature to great us each day.
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  #10  
Old 07-27-2018, 7:57 AM
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Most people go much too small on their solar and battery and gen sets.

Its your home, not a part time cabin. You need to be able to run everything a grid home does on demand. If not, you screwed the pooch.

Can't run your table saw and a air compressor while the wife is running the washing machine and drier, you are humping the pooch again.

Propane on demand water heaters are a no brainer, along with gas stoves and heaters.

Heating with wood and or propane is a wash in cost. Have a huge tank and fill it in the summer when prices are low. We have a 1500 gallon tank that I bought at a auction. You can save 50% on fuel costs buying right.

Wells suck up a ton of power. Gravity fed water tanks suck for water pressure. You either have pump water up hill to the tank or have a pressure system.

So, the proper way to go off grid is to find the total load of the home, everything turned on, and triple it.
Remember your solar has to take the load of the house and charge the batteries.

You are lucky to 25% total output from your solar system during the short days of winter and weather. Your Gen set has to be big enough to take total load of the house and charge batteries at the same time. There is no such thing as a cheap good gen set. There is no such thing as cheap inverters and or battery chargers.

Everything you don't do right the first time, you will be doing again.

In my own personal experience, when you think you have everything figured out, double it.

Last edited by KevinB; 07-27-2018 at 4:02 PM..
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Old 07-27-2018, 4:29 PM
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Awesome info guys, thank you. Yes, I am a "if one is enough, I'll buy three" kind of guy. I learned the buy once cry once lessons when I was younger and I won't likely underestimate.

So... instead of lead acid batteries, what about Tesla powerwalls?

Here's the way I see things, I'm willing to buy an "adequate" off grid home and spend another $50-100K making it a megawatt empire if that's what it takes. I guess what I need to find out is how to assess if an off grid home is adequate.

Yes Kevin, a thorough assessment by a well expert with no skin in the game is an absolute. Off all the ingredients here, like I said I am pretty solid in all areas but I'm not afraid to admit I know nearly zero about any off grid water supply.

I just sold one home, will be selling the other in two years. I'll have enough cash to do this right if it's a direction I choose, I won't halfass anything intentionally that's for sure.
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Old 07-27-2018, 4:50 PM
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Some batteries I have been researching are Iron Edison, nickel-iron batteries. They have a very long shelf life.

https://ironedison.com
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Old 07-27-2018, 6:10 PM
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Some batteries I have been researching are Iron Edison, nickel-iron batteries. They have a very long shelf life.

https://ironedison.com
Slow to charge and don't like sudden high draws, 30% more expensive than good lead filled batteries.
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Old 07-27-2018, 6:43 PM
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Are lithium ion batteries being used for solar off grid applications?
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Old 07-27-2018, 6:50 PM
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Yes they are and they cost 20 times what a lead filled battery does.
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Old 07-27-2018, 8:37 PM
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Slow to charge and don't like sudden high draws, 30% more expensive than good lead filled batteries.
Do you mind sharing what batteries you use and/or recommend?
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Old 07-27-2018, 8:59 PM
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I run 2 banks of 24 Trojan L16RE-2 volts. I think they are 1100 ah. They weigh about 100 lbs each. They are the best bang for the buck.

Remember you shouldn't cycle them more than 50% (discharge) 48 volt system is the way to go on large banks.
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Old 07-28-2018, 1:48 PM
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One of my challenges in going off grid was selecting the right energy efficient appliances. You might think ordering a nice propane stove is all you have to do since it's a gas stove after all. But did you know that almost all gas stoves use a 400 watt glow bar to keep the gas lit while baking? There are very few stoves out there that don't.

Every thing you buy has to be carefully researched which means you often have to download the users manual to the device to research how much power it actually uses because that information is rarely displayed accurately in the product advertising and description.

The electrical subcontractor on our project recommended a very efficient and quiet bathroom exhaust fan using only 20 watts. I looked it up and found out that the same manufacturer makes and even more efficient model that uses only 10 watts. It costs more but not as much as larger batteries and more solar panels cost.

These are examples of how even seemingly simple devices that seem right for your off grid home are in fact the wrong device for you. In the end, now that we are done with our off-grid home, I am glad I invested the time into carefully researching every electric device we installed.

I learned that you can't trust tradesmen to understand the intricacies of off grid living but if you take firm control of product selection ahead of time, you'll get the best results rather than relying on the contractor of subcontractors to do the right thing.
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Old 08-01-2018, 7:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sealocan View Post
I've done it a few times in different states and it really depends on where you're at and how far you are away from the closest town because that helps if your getting things delivered or have to go to town a lot but there are ways to do it on the cheap..

In Hawaii you can use the rainfall during some parts of the year, in some areas, as your water supply. You buy a cheap but sturdy above ground rubber lined pool and catch the rain water ( maybe even run off from your roof although that can be more dirty.) then you add a little bleach and keep it covered with a tarp to keep Critters and leaves out when it's not raining and then you have your showering and clothes washing water.

If you get a property with a running stream you could do the same in California.

I much preferred a solar set up even if it's a small one over a generator but you really strive for and eventually have both just in case something happens where you need power.
Out in the woods even with a nice little cabin the rule "two is one and one is none" really applies.

If you can live with low electrical usage then you can build a pretty inexpensive reliable solar panel system that isn't complex or hard to work on if you need a new battery or two or even the solar control panel.

If you live near a running stream you could even install a small hydroelectric unit. But the two things about living in the woods without power and pumped in water that people don't always think about are...

You're going to need money out there to keep buying supplies to feed yourself to keep buying items because they break because they are usually expose a little bit more to the elements then the same item if it had been stored in a house with a shed in the city so you just need money for constant maintenance.

And the second part is you're not going to have a service repairman drive way out in the boonies so you're going to have to be doing most of those repairs on those worn out items which adds up to a lot of hard work as well as having some kind of Steady income or large savings to draw from to pay for everything.

If it wasn't hard back-breaking work were you needed money to do it I think more people would be living in nature / the woods.


That said, please don't think that I'm trying to discourage Anyone from doing it.

It's worth every ache at the end of most days, where you go to bed very tired and the happiness you find in simple things like even lukewarm coffee can be delicious.
Stream bed modification is a big no no anywhere in this state. You must have deeded water rights to divert any water. The permits are a pain in the butt. doing anything within 100 ft on any flowing water is a violation without a permit. If you don't have deeded water rights to a stream you have no right to the water and someone downstream will.

Dept of F & G love to hand out massive tickets for just a minor infraction of stream bed modification.

My deeded water is a ancient one and it entitles me to 100% of the water on my creek that flows onto my property. I am very close to where the creeks starts so we are not talking a bunch of water. It fills my 5 acre pond in the first couple of storms every year. The creek is dry by the end of June.
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Old 08-01-2018, 9:27 AM
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Quote:
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Stream bed modification is a big no no anywhere in this state. You must have deeded water rights to divert any water. The permits are a pain in the butt. doing anything within 100 ft on any flowing water is a violation without a permit. If you don't have deeded water rights to a stream you have no right to the water and someone downstream will.

Dept of F & G love to hand out massive tickets for just a minor infraction of stream bed modification.

My deeded water is a ancient one and it entitles me to 100% of the water on my creek that flows onto my property. I am very close to where the creeks starts so we are not talking a bunch of water. It fills my 5 acre pond in the first couple of storms every year. The creek is dry by the end of June.
The value of that water right that you have can not be over estimated. In evaluating a piece of land for your off grid home, you must be absolutely sure there is adequate water available. If there is an existing well, you have to independently test that well for its volume and water quality before moving forward. There are lots of places around here where wells go dry at the end of summer; not good.

Having water rights to a surface stream is golden. I too have a water right to a year round stream on my property and that water right along with some tillable farm land adds considerable value to the land. Water mean food. Its something a parcel of land must have.


Micro hydro power generators can be an excellent adjunct to off grid living if you have flowing water near your house that can be used and there is adequate volume and fall. I've seen a few systems that incorporate micro hydro power. It often does not produce all the power you need but when combined with solar can reduce or eliminate generator dependency during the short winter days.
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Old 08-01-2018, 10:32 AM
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I purchased 40 acres behind my place about 4 years ago. It had several mine shafts on the property. During the Butte fire we pumped water out of the big mine at 1200 gallons a minute and it never dropped the water level more than a couple of feet.

CDF made countless dips with Helicopters it our pond over 3 weeks. It kept the pond full and running out the spillway. It was a godsend. We have it hard plumbed to irrigate pasture with it now. Pumping water with a diesel pump is expensive compared to gravity. I irrigate about 30 acres with it now and use the water for the vineyard also.

Last edited by KevinB; 08-01-2018 at 11:05 AM..
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Old 08-03-2018, 6:18 PM
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Keep talking guys...
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