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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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Old 08-12-2017, 12:55 AM
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Default Guide to Retaining Your Gun Rights 2017 – The Options for AW in CA v1.0

Guide to Retaining Your Gun Rights 2017 – The Options for AW in CA v1.0

In a recent episode of “Game of Thrones”, a character had this line:

“Don't fight in the North or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend. Every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you've seen before.”





When I first heard this, I felt like he was talking about what a California gun owner’s state of mind should be. Needless to say, the game to create a gun free society set upon us by the anti-gun movement has evolved into a game of chess, an incremental nightmare akin to boiling a frog. It’s no longer possible to rely on blind rhetoric to win the game, and we need to adopt strategies that allow us to pursue all legal options that help us to retain our gun rights. That’s because, just like in the quote, there is not just one direction of attack directed towards us. The attack can come from multiple directions, and even all at once, so our defense and offense needs to be able to “fight ever battle, everywhere, always”.

If we do just one thing and take just one road, we will ignore the opportunities afforded by others. No one knows which direction will be attacked next, it’s all theory. But no one and I mean no one on this forum will say that another attack is not coming. Everyone knows and agrees that it is coming, as much as we can be sure of anything- including the sun rising in the morning.

Legal avenues for retaining ownership are finite and they all have advantages and disadvantages. There are well formed ideas that have been hashed out by many members on Calguns, and there are also really bad ideas and ridiculous arguments. I am going to try and parse that information in one place, and update it when new information becomes available.

How do I retain my gun rights and how do I do it legally? That’s the premise here, and this is factual but is still my opinion, I will not try and pass it off as incontrovertible truth. We all have tough choices to make in our 10 month “grace” from being declared felons by the State, and it’s a tough time with extremely high stakes. DO NOT LET THE STATE HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROSECUTE YOU FOR FELONY CRIMES. All the ideologues urging people to “not comply” will not be there to post your bail, count on it.

Most of this guide is devoted to defending or retaining what little is left of our 2A rights in CA. There is some aspect of offense in some options, but they are not considered to be anything other than long shots.

Not knowing where anything is going next, which is where we find ourselves (ALL OF US) means more options are better than fewer, and one might turn out to be the best way. It turned out in 2000 that registration was the best option, by far. This time it could be featureless, disassembly, or registration, etc. Basic math and probability tells us to hedge our bets. Then endgame is to have as much of your 2A rights intact.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, THIS IS FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY. SOME STATEMENTS MAY BE ERRONEOUS. I WILL ATTEMPT TO EDIT AND ADD NEW INFORMATION AS THE DISCUSSION CONTINUES.


Legal Options (2001-2016 legally acquired rifles)


Options that Directly Allow you to Retain Your Gun Rights


Registration (please check out Cockednglocked's excellent registration guide)

Using the CFARS website, we can submit an application to have the weapon enter into the AWCA RAW database, granted that it meets all the criteria called out for in the DOJ regulations. There are less advantages to register than we originally hoped for, and if the reg period was opened the way it had been in past periods it would have been a no brainer. I have used my standard AR-15 rifle with high caps (pending the injunction result) for 20 years without any problems or issues. Obviously now it's nowhere near a no-brainer, and it has serious implications and disadvantages because of illegal underground regulation and underground law.

Advantages and legitimate pro-registration arguments:

1) You can keep the rifle you purchased from 2001-2016 in the same configuration you purchased it in, granted the BB stays on the rifle. (Not including some Bullpup rifles)
2) You can retain as close to a national standard rifle as possible, including flash hiders, collapsing or folding stocks, OAL, etc. Except for the BB of course.
3) Safety in the AWCA Registry. Using the last 30 years of history of the AWCA, no registered firearm has had further restrictions or reclassification put on it
4) You can, by law and stated in the regulations, de-register your rifle at any time (involves conversion to legal non-AW configuration) and pass it on, sell it, etc.
5) You can sell your RAW via a RAW dealer to an out of State buyer
6) Legally speaking DOJ and CA have stepped way out on a limb with their legislation, their underground regulation, and their underground law. There are good chances the mandate for the BB to stay on will be struck down at some point. There is going to be an avalanche of litigation on several issues and plenty of court cases to back it up. In the event courts side with lawsuits regarding DOJ illegal regulation, only those who registered will be able to take advantage of restrictions being rolled back to SB23 definitions and standards
7) Any expectation that the State of CA does not know what you have is problematic post 2014, and in some cases pre 2014. Since this is the information age, those that advocate that they do not know what you have are stuck in the 1970's when such ideas had some merit. Assuming that they know what you have is conservative thinking.
8) When we register, we build common law arguments. Heller looked so promising in the beginning, and despite the concept not yielding results elsewhere there is still a very good chance it will be brought back into the spotlight soon. If there are millions of rifles in CA that are standard or almost standard (called AW here), it helps the Heller arguments. If the new reg period is a failure, and there are millions more featureless rifles or disassembled, fixed mag, etc. it weakens the common law Heller argument.
9) Registration is the ONLY OPTION for retaining certain types of semi auto magazine fed shotguns, AR and AK and HK, etc. pistols, etc. They cannot retain their semi-automatic function and be converted to featureless.
10) You can joint register firearms to family members who can then inherent them in the future.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti- registration arguments:

1) Travel restrictions. California Penal Code section 30945, subdivision (g) provides that registered assault weapons may be transported only between specified locations and must be unloaded and stored in a locked container when transported. There are also “point A to point B” restrictions, and going into public places and certain private businesses are considered not prudent.
2) You cannot pass down, sell, or give away registered AW. The AW stays with you and is your responsibility until you die.
3) You’re giving extra information to the government, which they could use against you in the future. Out of convenience, they could use the registry as a DB to initiate further infringements to owners 2A rights
4) The CFARS online registration process has pitfalls that can self-incriminate applicants.
5) In the future, although considered highly improbable but definitely possible, the AWCA registry could be hit with further restrictions or even confiscation. History says otherwise, 30 years of it actually, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility and needs to be considered.
6) Having RAW raises the stakes in almost all situations, including using it on the range, hunting, home defense, etc. There is no legal burden, but count on there being a “cultural” burden with most people and of course LEO having different attitudes. If LEO is called to your house, they will know you have RAW.
7) Interaction with overzealous LEO’s might lead to inspections that require them to take custody of RAW and further inspect at Stations, etc.
8) AFS systems checks can verify legal RAW, but keeping paperwork on hand is a good idea when using RAW, but also an extra burden.
9) Some people think bullet buttons are worse than alternatives from an ergonomic point of view.
10) No minor, eve your own children, can shoot or so much as legally lay their hand on a RAW

Featureless Conversion

Using a series of techniques, one can convert an AW into a featureless rifle. This almost always utilizes a grip fin, custom stock, or something to nullify a protruding pistol grip. Rifles that do not have a protruding pistol grip need not convert anything, like a Ruger Mini-14, and M1A, and most C&R semi-automatic rifles (that do not meet the definition of AW).

Advantages and legitimate pro-featureless arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) Standard magazine release can be used.
3) No travel RAW restrictions / storage requirements.
4) Legal for the foreseeable future, at least a year or two.
5) You can sell as a regular rifle, pass down to family, give away, etc.
6) If you bought your rifle pre-2014, the DROS record does not show what kind of rifle it is, just a “long gun”
7) Retains most functionality of a standard rifle.
8) Legal protections from over 20 years of rifles being used as featureless in CA (since AB23 features). In a case in Nov 2010 three featureless products (Hammerhead, Monsterman, & U-15) were testified to be legal for featureless and the DOJ witness on the stand agreed with the defense attorney that kydex finned grip wraps were a grey area
9) Some featureless products are well designed and thought out as to negate ergonomic disadvantages of a non-protruding pistol grips.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti- featureless arguments:

1) There is no guarantee that featureless rifles will not be targeted next, either through specific re-classification or re-definition. If and when they are re-classified/re-defined through legislation or regulation, there might not be another registration period opened. Chances are there will be another registration period, but again there is no guarantee.
2) Grip fins make rifles particularly difficult to handle in some people's opinion. Some people think the ergonomics are unacceptable.
3) No flash hider, adjustable or telescopic stocks, or folding stocks.
4) DOJ BBAW regulations re-defined minimum overall length to mean 30” WITH a PERMANENT attached muzzle brake. If your rifle does not get to 30” without a permanent muzzle device, it needs to be pinned and welded.
5) Pinning and welding stocks so that they are not adjustable decreases their value, especially outside of CA
6) Bullpups are particularly difficult or even impossible to convert to featureless. Any shotgun with a pistol grip and a detachable magazine, regardless of a grip fin or otherwise, cannot be converted to featureless. Pistol AR's/AK's cannot be converted to featureless.
7) Some people can convert for very little if they have the parts and the knowledge of working with kydex, others the conversions cost major $$$, especially for high end very nicely designed options (custom stocks, etc.) Lots of rifles are not AR’s. Grip fins, special grips, muzzle brakes, custom stocks, etc. are not always available for all models of rifles and usually limited to AR's and AK's.
8) Thinking that featureless keeps you “off the radar” is not correct. Since 2014, the State knows you own a semi-auto rifle and it's make and model. Pre 2014, they know you own a semi-automatic rifle. Pre 2011, they know you own a long gun, going back to the 1970’s. Assuming anonymity is dangerous in the information age because it instills false-confidence.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez


Last edited by Discogodfather; 08-13-2017 at 9:30 PM..
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:56 AM
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Manual Conversion

If your AW firearm is semi-automatic, various methods can be employed to disable the semi-automatic functionality, rendering the weapon a “manual action”.

Advantages and legitimate pro-manual conversion arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State
2) No special restrictions
3) Difficult to imagine that these rifles will ever be banned (but never impossible).

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-manual conversion arguments:

1) Can be technically difficult to accomplish and require a professional gunsmith. Some conversion requires special parts, etc.
2) You have a diminished rifle for self-defense.
3) Severely affects the value of the firearm, especially with permanent modifications.
4) Little point to having a bolt action rifle made from a semi-automatic design when bolt action rifles specifically designed as such are probably far higher performance.

Fixed Magazine Conversion

Another method of legal compliance is to convert your AW to a fixed magazine. This requires much more than just plugging a bullet button as outlined in the new BBAW regulations.

Advantages and legitimate pro-fixed mag conversion arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) No special restrictions.
3) Top loading mag speed loaders are legal and available.
4) Franklin Armory product has been given approval in written form from the DOJ in the sense that it meets their definition of a fixed magazine. Also requires no permanent modifications to rifle and is affordable.
5) Somewhat difficult to imagine that these rifles will ever be banned (but never impossible). The worst and most egregious anti-gun bill ever devised and solicited in CA history was 2013's SB 374, that mandated all SACF have fixed magazines. Since that was the worst, counting on fixed mags to ever be banned seems very unlikely.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-fixed mag conversion arguments:

1) Few options exist outside of AR rifle designs.
2) Permanent modification to the rifle and magazine (i.e. welding and epoxying) severely diminish the value of the rifle.
3) You can end up with a negligent discharge safety hazard during a double feed condition with AR style rifles. This is no small problem, as double feeds require removal of a magazine and an AR design cannot be opened if the bolt carrier is in the rearward position. This problem requires the removal of the buffer tube, which is severely problematic in many situations. For this reason, home or self-defense might not be suitable with an AR rifle with a fixed magazine.

Rim Fire Conversion

Another method of legal compliance is to convert your AW to a rim fire rifle.

Advantages and legitimate pro-rim fire conversion arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) No special restrictions.
3) Difficult to imagine that these rifles will ever be banned (but never impossible).

Disadvantages and legitimate anti- rim fire conversion arguments:

1) Severely affect weapons value.
2) Precludes use in defense, hunting, etc.
3) Very expensive conversion parts.
4) Most weapons beyond AR’s do not have conversions readily available


BB v2.0 Conversion

New products have hit the market that attempt to follow the letter of the law in SB 880 that talk about how a rifle needs to be “broken open” to remove a magazine. None of these inventions have been proved to be lawful or unlawful.

Advantages and legitimate BBv2.0 conversion arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) No special restrictions.
3) Fast reload and retention of most functionality of a standard rifle (AW)

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-BBv2.0 conversion arguments:

1) Neither considered to be legal or illegal, awaiting court decisions or letters (opinions) from DOJ
2) Some manufacturers claim DOJ “approval” but have no written proof and deceptively claim approval.
3) You can end up with a negligent discharge safety hazard during a double feed condition with AR style rifles. This is no small problem, as double feeds require removal of a magazine and an AR design cannot be opened if the bolt carrier is in the rearward position. This problem requires the removal of the buffer tube, which is severely problematic in many situations. For this reason, home or self-defense might not be suitable with an AR rifle with a BB V2.0, depending on the design.
4) Given the success of SB 880 and AB 1137 legislation that banned "loopholes" like the original BB, v2.0 seems most likely along with featureless to be targeted next in terms of banning.


Disassembly

PC 5471 (hh)(3) explains that an AR upper separated from an AR lower is not semiauto rifle, even if both are in the immediate possession of a person.

Advantages and legitimate disassembly arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) No special restrictions.
3) No modification of weapon necessary.
4) In a life and death emergency or when zombies attack or the rule of law flies out the window in a major natural disaster or some kind of Force majeure, you can relatively quickly have a fully functional rifle.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-disassembly arguments:

1) Never can actually re-assemble the weapon unless you risk felony level crime. End or world, life or death, but no more range days or hunting, etc.
2) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used.


Storing out of State

At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can remove the AW to another residence or location legally out of state.

Advantages and legitimate storing out of state arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) No modification of weapon necessary.
3) If in future laws change, you might be able to get the rifle back into CA legally.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti- storing out of state arguments:

1) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used in California.
2) It can never come back in if in AW configuration if the laws stand.
3) 2A rights not retained in California.
4) No guarantee anything will ever change.
5) Most people do not have this option.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez


Last edited by Discogodfather; 08-12-2017 at 3:37 AM..
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Old 08-12-2017, 12:56 AM
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Options that Allow You to Legally Divest Your Gun Rights


Selling out of State

Until July 1st, 2018, it is legal to sell and AW out of state. Since most states allow direct sending of rifles to FFL’s out of state, you can sell your rifle legally online or otherwise and ship it directly to a receiving FFL with their knowledge. BB has to stay on rifle when you ship.

Advantages and legitimate selling out of state arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) No modification of weapon necessary.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-selling out of state arguments:

1) Bye bye firearm.
2) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used.
3) 2A rights not retained.
4) Lackluster national rifle market currently, low price.


Selling in State

At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can convert your AW to non-AW status in one of the many conversion methods and sell it legally in CA.

Advantages and legitimate selling in state arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-selling in state arguments:

1) Bye bye firearm.
2) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used.
3) 2A rights not retained.
4) Modification required, including cost.
5) Very lackluster local rifle market currently, low price


Destruction

At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can legally destroy you AW. Methods for this can be found on the DOJ website.

Advantages and legitimate destruction arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) Not quite the dumbest thing you can do but almost the dumbest.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti- destruction arguments:

1) You just destroyed a piece of your 2A rights, literally


Gun Buy Back Program

At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can legally give your AW to a gun buy-back program.

Advantages and legitimate gun buy back arguments:

1) Get $20 or a gift card.
2) Possibly get on TV next to Kevin DeLeon.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-gun buy back in arguments:

1) You just turned in a piece of your 2A rights, literally


Turning It In

At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can legally turn-in you AW to law enforcement.

Advantages and legitimate turning-in arguments:

1) Nothing, this is the dumbest thing you can possible do.

Disadvantages and legitimate anti-turning in arguments:

2) You just turned in a piece of your 2A rights, literally
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez


Last edited by Discogodfather; 08-12-2017 at 1:12 AM..
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Old 08-12-2017, 1:16 AM
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Reserved
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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Old 08-12-2017, 2:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Guide to Legally Retaining Your Gun Rights 2017 – The Options for AW in CA v1.0

In a recent episode of “Game of Thrones”, a character had this line:

“Don't fight in the North or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend. Every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you've seen before.”

When I first heard this, I felt like he was talking about what a California gun owner’s state of mind should be. Needless to say, the game to create a gun free society set upon us by the anti-gun movement has evolved into a game of chess, an incremental nightmare akin to boiling a frog. It’s no longer possible to rely on blind rhetoric to win the game, and we need to adopt strategies that allow us to pursue all legal options that help us to retain our gun rights. That’s because, just like in the quote, there is not just one direction of attack directed towards us. The attack can come from multiple directions, and even all at once, so our defense and offense needs to be able to “fight ever battle, everywhere, always”.

If we do just one thing and take just one road, we will ignore the opportunities afforded by others. No one knows which direction will be attacked next, it’s all theory. But no one and I mean no one on this forum will say that another attack is not coming. Everyone knows and agrees that it is coming, as much as we can be sure of anything- including the sun rising in the morning.

Legal avenues for retaining ownership are finite and they all have advantages and disadvantages. There are well formed ideas that have been hashed out by many members on Calguns, and there are also really bad ideas and ridiculous arguments. I am going to try and parse that information in one place, and update it when new information becomes available.
Just so it's clear I won't put a dog in this fight regarding G.O.T. My life doesn't revolve around a T.V. series. I am not saying that this is a joke, but I have no point in discussing this whatsoever as my life is completely separated from drama like this show.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
How do I retain my gun rights and how do I do it legally? That’s the premise here, and this is factual but is still my opinion, I will not try and pass it off as incontrovertible truth. We all have tough choices to make in our 10 month “grace” from being declared felons by the State, and it’s a tough time with extremely high stakes. DO NOT LET THE STATE HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROSECUTE YOU FOR FELONY CRIMES. All the ideologues urging people to “not comply” will not be there to post your bail, count on it.

Most of this guide is devoted to defending or retaining what little is left of our 2A rights in CA. There is some aspect of offense in some options, but they are not considered to be anything other than long shots.

Not knowing where anything is going next, which is where we find ourselves (ALL OF US) means more options are better than fewer, and one might turn out to be the best way. It turned out in 2000 that registration was the best option, by far. This time it could be featureless, disassembly, or registration, etc. Basic math and probability tells us to hedge our bets. Then endgame is to have as much of your 2A rights intact.

DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, THIS IS FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY. SOME STATEMENTS MAY BE ERRONEOUS. I WILL ATTEMPT TO EDIT AND ADD NEW INFORMATION AS THE DISCUSSION CONTINUES.


Legal Options (2001-2016 legally acquired rifles)


Options that Directly Allow you to Retain Your Gun Rights


Registration

Using the CFARS website, we can submit an application to have the weapon entering into the AWCA RAW database, granted that it meets all the criteria called out for in the DOJ regulations. There are less advantages to register than we originally hoped for, and if the reg period was opened the way it had been in past periods it would have been a no brainer. I have used my standard AR-15 rifle with high caps (pending the injunction result) for 20 years without any problems or issues. Obviously now it's nowhere near a no-brainer, and it has serious implications and disadvantages because of illegal underground regulation and underground law.

Advantages and legitimate pro-registration arguments:

1) You can keep the rifle you purchased from 2001-2016 in the same configuration you purchased it in, granted the BB stays on the rifle.
True!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
2) You can retain as close to a national standard rifle as possible, including flash hiders, collapsing or folding stocks, OAL, etc. Except for the BB of course.
True!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
3) Safety in the AWCA Registry. Using the last 30 years of history of the AWCA, no registered firearm has had further restrictions or reclassification put on it
True and not true. Completely different climate. Different administration and different culture from 1987. Doesn't guarantee the future. The magazine ban should be a wakeup call.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
4) You can, by law and stated in the regulations, de-register your rifle at any time (involves conversion to legal non-AW configuration) and pass it on, sell it, etc.
Yes but apparently not without complications. Not enough examples to prove either way, but one user on Calguns has already explained the troubles with de-registration. Would like to hear from a good experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
5) You can sell your RAW via a RAW dealer to an out of State buyer
Yes but what about market value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
6) Legally speaking DOJ and CA have stepped way out on a limb with their legislation, their underground regulation, and their underground law. There are good chances the mandate for the BB to stay on will be struck down at some point. There is going to be an avalanche of litigation on several issues and plenty of court cases to back it up. In the event courts side with lawsuits regarding DOJ illegal regulation, only those who registered will be able to take advantage of restrictions being rolled back to SB23 definitions and standards
No guarantee on outcome. It may happen. It may not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
7) Any expectation that the State of CA does not know what you have is problematic post 2014, and in some cases pre 2014. Since this is the information age, those that advocate that they do not know what you have are stuck in the 1970's when such ideas had some merit. Assuming that they know what you have is conservative thinking.
Prove it. Before 2014 there is no record that attaches a serial number to a name with the DOJ. They would need to seek information with the FFL. And that doesn't guarantee a match. In addition it doesn't describe what type of long gun you own. It is only known that you own a long gun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
8) When we register, we build common law arguments. Heller looked so promising in the beginning, and despite the concept not yielding results elsewhere there is still a very good chance it will be brought back into the spotlight soon. If there are millions of rifles in CA that are standard or almost standard (called AW here), it helps the Heller arguments. If the new reg period is a failure, and there are millions more featureless rifles or disassembled, fixed mag, etc. it weakens the common law Heller argument.
Not true. Please show documentation that shows when litigation requires a separate registration database to support common use? I fail to see that requirement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
9) Registration is the ONLY OPTION for retaining certain types of semi auto magazine fed shotguns, AR and AK and HK, etc. pistols, etc. They cannot retain their semi-automatic function and be converted to featureless.
True!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
10) You can joint register firearms to family members who can then inherent them in the future.
True, but only one generation. If all semiautos are banned in the future with a registration window, what do you say about M1 Garands that were used in three wars?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Disadvantages and legitimate anti- registration arguments:

1) Travel restrictions. California Penal Code section 30945, subdivision (g) provides that registered assault weapons may be transported only between specified locations and must be unloaded and stored in a locked container when transported. There are also “point A to point B” restrictions, and going into public places and certain private businesses are considered not prudent.
True!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
2) You cannot pass down, sell, or give away registered AW. The AW stays with you and is your responsibility until you die.
True!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
3) You’re giving extra information to the government, which they could use against you in the future. Out of convenience, they could use the registry as a DB to initiate further infringements to owners 2A rights
Well that has been debated back and forth. So there are many opinions about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
4) The CFARS online registration process has pitfalls that can self-incriminate applicants.
There is one issue that I saw with the help from Michel and Associates and posted it in C&G's thread on registration. http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...1&postcount=62

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5) In the future, although considered highly improbable but definitely possible, the AWCA registry could be hit with further restrictions or even confiscation. History says otherwise, 30 years of it actually, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility and needs to be considered.
I can't personally count on history to be on our side considering the different culture we are in.

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6) Having RAW raises the stakes in almost all situations, including using it on the range, hunting, home defense, etc. There is no legal burden, but count on there being a “cultural” burden with most people and of course LEO having different attitudes. If LEO is called to your house, they will know you have RAW.
There is some truth to this.

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7) Interaction with overzealous LEO’s might lead to inspections that require them to take custody of RAW and further inspect at Stations, etc.
Hard to tell at the moment.

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8) AFS systems checks can verify legal RAW, but keeping paperwork on hand is a good idea when using RAW, but also an extra burden.
Personally the extra paperwork wouldn't be an issue with me.

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9) Some people think bullet buttons are worse than alternatives from an ergonomic point of view.
Bullet buttons are not as efficient as a regular magazine release. The trade off is the absence of a pistol grip, flash hider and collapsible stock in order to use a regular magazine release with a featureless configuration. YMMV.

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Featureless Conversion

Using a series of techniques, one can convert an AW into a featureless rifle. This almost always utilizes a grip fin, custom stock, or some to nullify a protruding pistol grip. Rifles that do not have a protruding pistol grip need not convert anything, like a Ruger Mini-14, and M1A, and most C&R semi-automatic rifles.

Advantages and legitimate pro-featureless arguments:

1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State.
2) Standard magazine release can be used.
3) No travel RAW restrictions / storage requirements.
4) Legal for the foreseeable future, at least a year or two.
5) You can sell as a regular rifle, pass down to family, give away, etc.
6) If you bought your rifle pre-2014, the DROS record does not show what kind of rifle it is, just a “long gun”
True up to this point.
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Old 08-12-2017, 2:23 AM
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7) Retains most functionality of a standard rifle.
8) Legal protections from over 20 years of rifles being used as featureless in CA (since AB23 features). DOJ has had witnesses in court cases that swore grip fins were considered featureless rifles.
True!

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Disadvantages and legitimate anti- featureless arguments:

1) There is no guarantee that featureless rifles will not be targeted next, either through specific re-classification or re-definition. If and when they are re-classified/re-defined through legislation or regulation, there might not be another registration period opened. Chances are there will be another registration period, but again there is no guarantee.
No one knows for sure. But the argument I point out is that featureless is the same as SACF. So if a ban comes to featureless it's coming to all semi autos with detachable magazines.

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2) Grip fins make rifles particularly difficult to handle. Some people think the ergonomics are unacceptable.
Not everyone thinks that. And just like any style rifle, you train to be efficient. EDITED to reflect Exile Machine's comment. There are more solutions than just grip fins.

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3) No flash hider, adjustable or telescopic stocks, or folding stocks.
So is this a disadvantage? Is an M1 Garand a faulty rifle because it doesn't have the modern features of an AR platform? Some may disagree with this.

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4) DOJ BBAW regulations re-defined minimum overall length to mean 30” WITH a PERMANENT attached muzzle brake. If your rifle does not get to 30” without a permanent muzzle device, it needs to be pinned and welded.
This is unclear to me if you DON'T register. And listening to the webinar it appeared unclear to them also.

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5) Pinning and welding stocks so that they are not adjustable decreases their value, especially outside of CA
That can be changed for sale out of state. It's an extra expense in some cases.

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6) Bullpups are particularly difficult or even impossible to convert to featureless. Any shotgun with a pistol grip and a detachable magazine, regardless of a grip fin or otherwise, cannot be converted to featureless
True in some cases but not all.

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7) Some people can convert for very little if they have the parts and the knowledge of working with kydex, others the conversions cost major $$$, especially for high end very nicely designed options (custom stocks, etc.) Lots of rifles are not AR’s. Grip fins, muzzle brakes, fixed stocks, etc. are not always available for all models of rifles
True in some cases but you don't have to use a muzzle brake. Thread protectors are available. And kydex is cheaper if you do it yourself.

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8) Thinking that featureless keeps you “off the radar” is not correct. Since 2014, the State knows you own a semi-auto rifle with a BB. Pre 2014, they know you own a semi-automatic rifle. Pre 2011, they know you own a long gun, going back to the 1970’s. Assuming anonymity is dangerous in the information age because it instills false-confidence.
Like you say, they know you own a long gun. So what will happen from that? If you believe that confiscation won't happen, then it would apply to featureless. If you believe that confiscation will happen, then it would apply to featureless also, however I will bet they would come for all the registered rifles first because they already know where they are located unless you break the law. Any unregistered rifle is a guess where it's located.
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Old 08-12-2017, 5:18 AM
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Just do what ever the government tells you to.
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Old 08-12-2017, 5:29 AM
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You open your post with fight fight fight, but all of your options are pointing to complying or surender.
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Old 08-12-2017, 5:40 AM
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You open your post with fight fight fight, but all of your options are pointing to complying or surender.
Surrendering your freedom to go to prison for 4-5 years minimum isn't exactly fighting either, is it?

I'll agree to not comply if you agree to pay all my legal fees, deal?
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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Old 08-12-2017, 5:44 AM
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How about you join me on the battlefield?
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Old 08-12-2017, 5:48 AM
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How about you join me on the battlefield?
You mean giving lots of money to CRPA and NRA-ILA? Or posting news and updates about the registration process that requires hours of work a week for the past 7 months with 70,000 views? Or publishing guides for people to use to help them stay legal? Or promoting 2A causes and going to local city counsel meetings on 2A issues?

I feel like I am at the front already.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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Old 08-12-2017, 5:56 AM
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Seriously, thanks for trying to get our rights left alone. I'm sorry it hasn't worked. As you said we have 10 months to prepare. I don't think giving in is an option that will retain your rights.
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Old 08-12-2017, 6:03 AM
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An addition to disadvantages of registration should be added, that no minor, eve your own children, can shoot or so much as legally lay their hand on a RAW
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Old 08-12-2017, 6:07 AM
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An addition to disadvantages of registration should be added, that no minor, eve your own children, can shoot or so much as legally lay their hand on a RAW
Added
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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Old 08-12-2017, 6:12 AM
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All options include the loss of your birth rights as a free people.
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Old 08-12-2017, 7:01 AM
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Disco this is very helpful, thanks to you and C+G for taking the time to put together these useful threads.
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Old 08-12-2017, 7:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
8) ... DOJ has had witnesses in court cases that swore grip fins were considered featureless rifles.
Please cite the court cases for mulitple DOJ witnesses testifying that "grip fins" were legal for featureless. We know of only one case in Nov 2010 where three featureless products (Hammerhead, Monsterman, & U-15) were testified to be legal for featureless and the DOJ witness (singular) on the stand agreed with the defense attorney that kydex finned grip wraps were a grey area.

Quote:
2) Grip fins make rifles particularly difficult to handle. Some people think the ergonomics are unacceptable.
Confused about your list of disadvantages singling out grip fins, but ignoring all other types of featureless compliance products including featureless stocks as well as stock adapters and grips that feature some type of wrap-around grasp and do not make use of a blocking fin to achieve legal compliance.

Some finned grip products incorporate a ledge or shelf for the thumb which markedly improves weapon handling vs the plain vanilla kydex wrapped grip.

Declaring that "some people" think ergos are unnaceptable is a weak argument. For example we can find "some people" who feel that any given model of pistol grip has unacceptable ergonomics.
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Old 08-12-2017, 7:19 AM
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Thanks for your work. This is quite helpful with some exceptions;

RE: registering
Quote:
1) You can keep the rifle you purchased from 2001-2016 in the same configuration you purchased it in, granted the BB stays on the rifle.
Not true for many bull pups that were sold with non-permanent barrel extenders to make 30" OAL.
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Old 08-12-2017, 7:33 AM
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Please cite the court cases for mulitple DOJ witnesses testifying that "grip fins" were legal for featureless. We know of only one case in Nov 2010 where three featureless products (Hammerhead, Monsterman, & U-15) were testified to be legal for featureless and the DOJ witness (singular) on the stand agreed with the defense attorney that kydex finned grip wraps were a grey area.



Confused about your list of disadvantages singling out grip fins, but ignoring all other types of featureless compliance products including featureless stocks as well as stock adapters and grips that feature some type of wrap-around grasp and do not make use of a blocking fin to achieve legal compliance.

Some finned grip products incorporate a ledge or shelf for the thumb which markedly improves weapon handling vs the plain vanilla kydex wrapped grip.

Declaring that "some people" think ergos are unnaceptable is a weak argument. For example we can find "some people" who feel that any given model of pistol grip has unacceptable ergonomics.
Corrected the court case specifics. Added that there are well thought out featureless products available in advantages, but included that their additional cost (over cheap kydex) as a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Jeep Guy View Post
Thanks for your work. This is quite helpful with some exceptions;

RE: registering


Not true for many bull pups that were sold with non-permanent barrel extenders to make 30" OAL.
Thanks, added that note.
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Old 08-12-2017, 7:45 AM
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9) Well designed featureless grips and stocks (not kydex wraps) tend to be expensive
The cheapest kydex wrap we can find on the market is around $25. Hammerhead is less than $30. Other injection molded featureless grips on the market we have seen around $10. Tend to be expensive? Some are more expensive. Some tend to be cheaper, some tend to be around the same price.
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Old 08-12-2017, 7:54 AM
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The cheapest kydex wrap we can find on the market is around $25. Hammerhead is less than $30. Other injection molded featureless grips on the market we have seen around $10. Tend to be expensive? Some are more expensive. Some tend to be cheaper, some tend to be around the same price.
Made the change, I'll take your word that they are well designed and affordable, I don't have any nor have I used them.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:05 AM
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Made the change, I'll take your word that they are well designed and affordable, I don't have any nor have I used them.
That line should just be struck. Price is neither an advantage nor a disadvantage. You could just as easily write it as an advantage because there is a $10 part that will do the job and say parenthetically that some are more expensive.

Some tend to be more expensive, some tend to be the same price, some tend to be cheaper. Best to just delete that line. How is it a disadvantage if the prices vary from more expensive, through the same price, to cheaper?

And please ask yourself why have you arbitrarily chosen the kydex wrap (which we have just established is a legal grey area) as the standard for the price? Why not choose the FRS-15 or HERA stock as the standard? Then all other options would tend to be much cheaper.

Continued reliance in several statements on the opinions of "some people" is problematic. Your "guide" should strive to remain as factual as possible. As written it is more of an opinion piece, and there seems to be a bias.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:06 AM
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RE: registration disadvantages
Quote:
2) You cannot pass down, sell, or give away registered AW. The AW stays with you and is your responsibility until you die.
You may want to caveat this with "or change state residency"
Many of us have long term plans of leaving the state.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:09 AM
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Made the change, I'll take your word that they are well designed and affordable, I don't have any nor have I used them.
So this whole time when I actually thought you at least used one before, I am incorrect and you have NEVER used one, yet have been preaching all this time how they are dangerous and terrible to use. Unbelievable.

I guess it was too hard to EVER mention before that you never had any personal experience with grip fins, wraps, stock alternatives? Maybe I missed it in the past, but was always giving you credit that at least you tried them UNTIL NOW.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:15 AM
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Continued reliance in several statements on the opinions of "some people" is problematic. Your "guide" should strive to remain as factual as possible. As written it is more of an opinion piece, and there seems to be a bias.
This whole thing is an opinion piece, although I am trying to be as objective as possible. We all have biases. You know, like a retailer and manufacturer of featureless products having a problem with how featureless is represented.

Made the changes proposed again.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:21 AM
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So this whole time when I actually thought you at least used one before, I am incorrect and you have NEVER used one, yet have been preaching all this time how they are dangerous and terrible to use. Unbelievable.

I guess it was too hard to EVER mention before that you never had any personal experience with grip fins, wraps, stock alternatives? Maybe I missed it in the past, but was always giving you credit that at least you tried them UNTIL NOW.
Relax, I have never used those products mentioned by Exile. You forget I am a product designer and engineer, would you like to see my collection of featureless grips and compliance parts I machined and 3D printed for my various oddball guns? I have plenty of featureless guns, and I still say not being able to wrap a thumb around the grip is a disadvantage. Even on the stuff I designed and made myself. The Hera is just barely ok, the Thordsen or that other Exile product that allows the thumb to come around with a flat grip is much better.

And I make kydex grips too, just finished doing about 3 different kinds of Veprs. Those kydex wraps suck the worst in my opinion.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:23 AM
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Relax, I have never used those products mentioned by Exile. You forget I am a product designer and engineer, would you like to see my collection of featureless grips and compliance parts I machined and 3D printed for my various oddball guns? I have plenty of featureless guns, and I still say not being able to wrap a thumb around the grip is a disadvantage. Even on the stuff I designed and made myself. The Hera is just barely ok, the Thordsen or that other Exile product that allows the thumb to come around with a flat grip is much better.

And I make kydex grips too, just finished doing about 3 different kinds of Veprs. Those kydex wraps suck the worst in my opinion.
Yet you lump them all together and say how dangerous they are? You didn't say that in this thread, but you have said that in the past.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:27 AM
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Yet you lump them all together and say how dangerous they are?
My opinion is that any design that does not allow you to wrap your thumb completely around the grip is problematic and dangerous on some level. Hence no firearm design, to my knowledge, ever used such a method where you can't get your thumb around the grip. If you can find one that wasn't intended for CA law compliance, let me know.

I never said the Thordsen or thumb wrap around designs were dangerous, just more expensive.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:31 AM
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My opinion is that any design that does not allow you to wrap your thumb completely around the grip is problematic and dangerous on some level. Hence no firearm design, to my knowledge, ever used such a method where you can't get your thumb around the grip. If you can find one that wasn't intended for CA law compliance, let me know.

I never said the Thordsen or thumb wrap around designs were dangerous, just more expensive.
I posted this before:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfjJNZx_cyI
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:39 AM
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DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, THIS IS FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY. SOME STATEMENTS MAY BE ERRONEOUS. I WILL ATTEMPT TO EDIT AND ADD NEW INFORMATION AS THE DISCUSSION CONTINUES.
Then maybe you shouldn't be doing this "GUIDE TO LEGALLY RETAINING YOUR GUN RIGHTS."
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:43 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
Then maybe you shouldn't be doing this "GUIDE TO LEGALLY RETAINING YOUR GUN RIGHTS."
I don't get it, I am saying this is a guide to retaining your gun rights in a legal way, as opposed to non-compliance.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
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Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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Old 08-12-2017, 8:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
This whole thing is an opinion piece, although I am trying to be as objective as possible. We all have biases. You know, like a retailer and manufacturer of featureless products having a problem with how featureless is represented.
Yes of course we wear our Calguns Manufacturer/retailer badge up there proudly. And we do have our biases of course. Please don't take our comments as a personal attack. Pulling all this info together in one place is a great start. Calguns community will help tighten it up and we appreciate you considering the suggested edits.

Probably the biggest disadvantage of featureless, which we haven't seen mentioned yet: Featureless rifles constructed by use of any product currently on the market differ in appearance from "free state" rifles. In some cases the appearance is profoundly different.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:46 AM
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Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
Can you show me a video where you can do a transition drill with that?
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Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #34  
Old 08-12-2017, 8:47 AM
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Little Finger dies so I wouldn't take his advice as worthy of quoting.
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:48 AM
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Originally Posted by God Bless America View Post
Then maybe you shouldn't be doing this "GUIDE TO LEGALLY RETAINING YOUR GUN RIGHTS."
I am willing to take a guess he was inspired from this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Disco, I looked at your #1 thru #9 reasons for registering like a cat looks at a salad bar.
I don't think any of them are worth $15.

Meno, I think you should start a new thread and take the first 4 posts for yourself and edit them as the thread progresses. Use those posts to enumerate the pros and cons of registration, featureless etc...
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Old 08-12-2017, 8:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Exile Machine View Post
Yes of course we wear our Calguns Manufacturer/retailer badge up there proudly. And we do have our biases of course. Please don't take our comments as a personal attack. Pulling all this info together in one place is a great start. Calguns community will help tighten it up and we appreciate you considering the suggested edits.

Probably the biggest disadvantage of featureless, which we haven't seen mentioned yet: Featureless rifles constructed by use of any product currently on the market differ in appearance from "free state" rifles. In some cases the appearance is profoundly different.
I appreciate it, I know you take pride in your designs and products and I respect them and your business. Did not mean to imply you were biased in some kind of negative way, you want it to be represented honestly.
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Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #37  
Old 08-12-2017, 8:50 AM
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Originally Posted by meno377 View Post
I am willing to take a guess he was inspired from this:
No, I was inspired by your thread about advantages of registration, which is awful.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #38  
Old 08-12-2017, 8:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
No, I was inspired by your thread about advantages of registration, which is awful.
Funny you say that. My OP in my thread was asking a question. How do you equate that with showing 'advantages of registration'?
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Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
I've been married so long that I don't even look both ways when I cross the street.
Quote:
Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.
-Milton Friedman


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/signaturepics/sigpic164573_1.gif
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  #39  
Old 08-12-2017, 9:00 AM
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Funny you say that. My OP in my thread was asking a question. How do you equate that with showing 'advantages of registration'?
Because the title is "advantages of registration????". Hence I "equated" it with "advantages of registration".

Is this one of those non-sequiturs? Who's on first?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doggie View Post
Someone must put an end to this endless bickering by posting the unadulterated indisputable facts and truth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Not checkers, not chess, its Jenga.
"The California matrix of gun control laws is among the harshest in the nation and are filled with criminal law traps for people of common intelligence who desire to obey the law." - U.S. District Judge Roger T. Benitez

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  #40  
Old 08-12-2017, 9:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discogodfather View Post
Because the title is "advantages of registration????". Hence I "equated" it with "advantages of registration".

Is this one of those non-sequiturs? Who's on first?
So the post I quoted had no influence whatsoever?


Quote:
Originally Posted by PMACA_MFG View Post
Disco, I looked at your #1 thru #9 reasons for registering like a cat looks at a salad bar.
I don't think any of them are worth $15.

Meno, I think you should start a new thread and take the first 4 posts for yourself and edit them as the thread progresses. Use those posts to enumerate the pros and cons of registration, featureless etc...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fjold View Post
I've been married so long that I don't even look both ways when I cross the street.
Quote:
Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program.
-Milton Friedman


http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/signaturepics/sigpic164573_1.gif
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