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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel. |
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Guide to Retaining Your Gun Rights 2017 – The Options for AW in CA v1.0
Guide to Retaining Your Gun Rights 2017 – The Options for AW in CA v1.0
In a recent episode of “Game of Thrones”, a character had this line: “Don't fight in the North or the South. Fight every battle, everywhere, always, in your mind. Everyone is your enemy, everyone is your friend. Every possible series of events is happening all at once. Live that way and nothing will surprise you. Everything that happens will be something that you've seen before.” When I first heard this, I felt like he was talking about what a California gun owner’s state of mind should be. Needless to say, the game to create a gun free society set upon us by the anti-gun movement has evolved into a game of chess, an incremental nightmare akin to boiling a frog. It’s no longer possible to rely on blind rhetoric to win the game, and we need to adopt strategies that allow us to pursue all legal options that help us to retain our gun rights. That’s because, just like in the quote, there is not just one direction of attack directed towards us. The attack can come from multiple directions, and even all at once, so our defense and offense needs to be able to “fight ever battle, everywhere, always”. If we do just one thing and take just one road, we will ignore the opportunities afforded by others. No one knows which direction will be attacked next, it’s all theory. But no one and I mean no one on this forum will say that another attack is not coming. Everyone knows and agrees that it is coming, as much as we can be sure of anything- including the sun rising in the morning. Legal avenues for retaining ownership are finite and they all have advantages and disadvantages. There are well formed ideas that have been hashed out by many members on Calguns, and there are also really bad ideas and ridiculous arguments. I am going to try and parse that information in one place, and update it when new information becomes available. How do I retain my gun rights and how do I do it legally? That’s the premise here, and this is factual but is still my opinion, I will not try and pass it off as incontrovertible truth. We all have tough choices to make in our 10 month “grace” from being declared felons by the State, and it’s a tough time with extremely high stakes. DO NOT LET THE STATE HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROSECUTE YOU FOR FELONY CRIMES. All the ideologues urging people to “not comply” will not be there to post your bail, count on it. Most of this guide is devoted to defending or retaining what little is left of our 2A rights in CA. There is some aspect of offense in some options, but they are not considered to be anything other than long shots. Not knowing where anything is going next, which is where we find ourselves (ALL OF US) means more options are better than fewer, and one might turn out to be the best way. It turned out in 2000 that registration was the best option, by far. This time it could be featureless, disassembly, or registration, etc. Basic math and probability tells us to hedge our bets. Then endgame is to have as much of your 2A rights intact. DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, THIS IS FOR INFORMATIONAL USE ONLY. SOME STATEMENTS MAY BE ERRONEOUS. I WILL ATTEMPT TO EDIT AND ADD NEW INFORMATION AS THE DISCUSSION CONTINUES. Legal Options (2001-2016 legally acquired rifles) Options that Directly Allow you to Retain Your Gun Rights Registration (please check out Cockednglocked's excellent registration guide) Using the CFARS website, we can submit an application to have the weapon enter into the AWCA RAW database, granted that it meets all the criteria called out for in the DOJ regulations. There are less advantages to register than we originally hoped for, and if the reg period was opened the way it had been in past periods it would have been a no brainer. I have used my standard AR-15 rifle with high caps (pending the injunction result) for 20 years without any problems or issues. Obviously now it's nowhere near a no-brainer, and it has serious implications and disadvantages because of illegal underground regulation and underground law. Advantages and legitimate pro-registration arguments: 1) You can keep the rifle you purchased from 2001-2016 in the same configuration you purchased it in, granted the BB stays on the rifle. (Not including some Bullpup rifles) 2) You can retain as close to a national standard rifle as possible, including flash hiders, collapsing or folding stocks, OAL, etc. Except for the BB of course. 3) Safety in the AWCA Registry. Using the last 30 years of history of the AWCA, no registered firearm has had further restrictions or reclassification put on it 4) You can, by law and stated in the regulations, de-register your rifle at any time (involves conversion to legal non-AW configuration) and pass it on, sell it, etc. 5) You can sell your RAW via a RAW dealer to an out of State buyer 6) Legally speaking DOJ and CA have stepped way out on a limb with their legislation, their underground regulation, and their underground law. There are good chances the mandate for the BB to stay on will be struck down at some point. There is going to be an avalanche of litigation on several issues and plenty of court cases to back it up. In the event courts side with lawsuits regarding DOJ illegal regulation, only those who registered will be able to take advantage of restrictions being rolled back to SB23 definitions and standards 7) Any expectation that the State of CA does not know what you have is problematic post 2014, and in some cases pre 2014. Since this is the information age, those that advocate that they do not know what you have are stuck in the 1970's when such ideas had some merit. Assuming that they know what you have is conservative thinking. 8) When we register, we build common law arguments. Heller looked so promising in the beginning, and despite the concept not yielding results elsewhere there is still a very good chance it will be brought back into the spotlight soon. If there are millions of rifles in CA that are standard or almost standard (called AW here), it helps the Heller arguments. If the new reg period is a failure, and there are millions more featureless rifles or disassembled, fixed mag, etc. it weakens the common law Heller argument. 9) Registration is the ONLY OPTION for retaining certain types of semi auto magazine fed shotguns, AR and AK and HK, etc. pistols, etc. They cannot retain their semi-automatic function and be converted to featureless. 10) You can joint register firearms to family members who can then inherent them in the future. Disadvantages and legitimate anti- registration arguments: 1) Travel restrictions. California Penal Code section 30945, subdivision (g) provides that registered assault weapons may be transported only between specified locations and must be unloaded and stored in a locked container when transported. There are also “point A to point B” restrictions, and going into public places and certain private businesses are considered not prudent. 2) You cannot pass down, sell, or give away registered AW. The AW stays with you and is your responsibility until you die. 3) You’re giving extra information to the government, which they could use against you in the future. Out of convenience, they could use the registry as a DB to initiate further infringements to owners 2A rights 4) The CFARS online registration process has pitfalls that can self-incriminate applicants. 5) In the future, although considered highly improbable but definitely possible, the AWCA registry could be hit with further restrictions or even confiscation. History says otherwise, 30 years of it actually, but it’s not outside the realm of possibility and needs to be considered. 6) Having RAW raises the stakes in almost all situations, including using it on the range, hunting, home defense, etc. There is no legal burden, but count on there being a “cultural” burden with most people and of course LEO having different attitudes. If LEO is called to your house, they will know you have RAW. 7) Interaction with overzealous LEO’s might lead to inspections that require them to take custody of RAW and further inspect at Stations, etc. 8) AFS systems checks can verify legal RAW, but keeping paperwork on hand is a good idea when using RAW, but also an extra burden. 9) Some people think bullet buttons are worse than alternatives from an ergonomic point of view. 10) No minor, eve your own children, can shoot or so much as legally lay their hand on a RAW Featureless Conversion Using a series of techniques, one can convert an AW into a featureless rifle. This almost always utilizes a grip fin, custom stock, or something to nullify a protruding pistol grip. Rifles that do not have a protruding pistol grip need not convert anything, like a Ruger Mini-14, and M1A, and most C&R semi-automatic rifles (that do not meet the definition of AW). Advantages and legitimate pro-featureless arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) Standard magazine release can be used. 3) No travel RAW restrictions / storage requirements. 4) Legal for the foreseeable future, at least a year or two. 5) You can sell as a regular rifle, pass down to family, give away, etc. 6) If you bought your rifle pre-2014, the DROS record does not show what kind of rifle it is, just a “long gun” 7) Retains most functionality of a standard rifle. 8) Legal protections from over 20 years of rifles being used as featureless in CA (since AB23 features). In a case in Nov 2010 three featureless products (Hammerhead, Monsterman, & U-15) were testified to be legal for featureless and the DOJ witness on the stand agreed with the defense attorney that kydex finned grip wraps were a grey area 9) Some featureless products are well designed and thought out as to negate ergonomic disadvantages of a non-protruding pistol grips. Disadvantages and legitimate anti- featureless arguments: 1) There is no guarantee that featureless rifles will not be targeted next, either through specific re-classification or re-definition. If and when they are re-classified/re-defined through legislation or regulation, there might not be another registration period opened. Chances are there will be another registration period, but again there is no guarantee. 2) Grip fins make rifles particularly difficult to handle in some people's opinion. Some people think the ergonomics are unacceptable. 3) No flash hider, adjustable or telescopic stocks, or folding stocks. 4) DOJ BBAW regulations re-defined minimum overall length to mean 30” WITH a PERMANENT attached muzzle brake. If your rifle does not get to 30” without a permanent muzzle device, it needs to be pinned and welded. 5) Pinning and welding stocks so that they are not adjustable decreases their value, especially outside of CA 6) Bullpups are particularly difficult or even impossible to convert to featureless. Any shotgun with a pistol grip and a detachable magazine, regardless of a grip fin or otherwise, cannot be converted to featureless. Pistol AR's/AK's cannot be converted to featureless. 7) Some people can convert for very little if they have the parts and the knowledge of working with kydex, others the conversions cost major $$$, especially for high end very nicely designed options (custom stocks, etc.) Lots of rifles are not AR’s. Grip fins, special grips, muzzle brakes, custom stocks, etc. are not always available for all models of rifles and usually limited to AR's and AK's. 8) Thinking that featureless keeps you “off the radar” is not correct. Since 2014, the State knows you own a semi-auto rifle and it's make and model. Pre 2014, they know you own a semi-automatic rifle. Pre 2011, they know you own a long gun, going back to the 1970’s. Assuming anonymity is dangerous in the information age because it instills false-confidence.
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Last edited by Discogodfather; 08-13-2017 at 9:30 PM.. |
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Manual Conversion
If your AW firearm is semi-automatic, various methods can be employed to disable the semi-automatic functionality, rendering the weapon a “manual action”. Advantages and legitimate pro-manual conversion arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State 2) No special restrictions 3) Difficult to imagine that these rifles will ever be banned (but never impossible). Disadvantages and legitimate anti-manual conversion arguments: 1) Can be technically difficult to accomplish and require a professional gunsmith. Some conversion requires special parts, etc. 2) You have a diminished rifle for self-defense. 3) Severely affects the value of the firearm, especially with permanent modifications. 4) Little point to having a bolt action rifle made from a semi-automatic design when bolt action rifles specifically designed as such are probably far higher performance. Fixed Magazine Conversion Another method of legal compliance is to convert your AW to a fixed magazine. This requires much more than just plugging a bullet button as outlined in the new BBAW regulations. Advantages and legitimate pro-fixed mag conversion arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) No special restrictions. 3) Top loading mag speed loaders are legal and available. 4) Franklin Armory product has been given approval in written form from the DOJ in the sense that it meets their definition of a fixed magazine. Also requires no permanent modifications to rifle and is affordable. 5) Somewhat difficult to imagine that these rifles will ever be banned (but never impossible). The worst and most egregious anti-gun bill ever devised and solicited in CA history was 2013's SB 374, that mandated all SACF have fixed magazines. Since that was the worst, counting on fixed mags to ever be banned seems very unlikely. Disadvantages and legitimate anti-fixed mag conversion arguments: 1) Few options exist outside of AR rifle designs. 2) Permanent modification to the rifle and magazine (i.e. welding and epoxying) severely diminish the value of the rifle. 3) You can end up with a negligent discharge safety hazard during a double feed condition with AR style rifles. This is no small problem, as double feeds require removal of a magazine and an AR design cannot be opened if the bolt carrier is in the rearward position. This problem requires the removal of the buffer tube, which is severely problematic in many situations. For this reason, home or self-defense might not be suitable with an AR rifle with a fixed magazine. Rim Fire Conversion Another method of legal compliance is to convert your AW to a rim fire rifle. Advantages and legitimate pro-rim fire conversion arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) No special restrictions. 3) Difficult to imagine that these rifles will ever be banned (but never impossible). Disadvantages and legitimate anti- rim fire conversion arguments: 1) Severely affect weapons value. 2) Precludes use in defense, hunting, etc. 3) Very expensive conversion parts. 4) Most weapons beyond AR’s do not have conversions readily available BB v2.0 Conversion New products have hit the market that attempt to follow the letter of the law in SB 880 that talk about how a rifle needs to be “broken open” to remove a magazine. None of these inventions have been proved to be lawful or unlawful. Advantages and legitimate BBv2.0 conversion arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) No special restrictions. 3) Fast reload and retention of most functionality of a standard rifle (AW) Disadvantages and legitimate anti-BBv2.0 conversion arguments: 1) Neither considered to be legal or illegal, awaiting court decisions or letters (opinions) from DOJ 2) Some manufacturers claim DOJ “approval” but have no written proof and deceptively claim approval. 3) You can end up with a negligent discharge safety hazard during a double feed condition with AR style rifles. This is no small problem, as double feeds require removal of a magazine and an AR design cannot be opened if the bolt carrier is in the rearward position. This problem requires the removal of the buffer tube, which is severely problematic in many situations. For this reason, home or self-defense might not be suitable with an AR rifle with a BB V2.0, depending on the design. 4) Given the success of SB 880 and AB 1137 legislation that banned "loopholes" like the original BB, v2.0 seems most likely along with featureless to be targeted next in terms of banning. Disassembly PC 5471 (hh)(3) explains that an AR upper separated from an AR lower is not semiauto rifle, even if both are in the immediate possession of a person. Advantages and legitimate disassembly arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) No special restrictions. 3) No modification of weapon necessary. 4) In a life and death emergency or when zombies attack or the rule of law flies out the window in a major natural disaster or some kind of Force majeure, you can relatively quickly have a fully functional rifle. Disadvantages and legitimate anti-disassembly arguments: 1) Never can actually re-assemble the weapon unless you risk felony level crime. End or world, life or death, but no more range days or hunting, etc. 2) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used. Storing out of State At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can remove the AW to another residence or location legally out of state. Advantages and legitimate storing out of state arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) No modification of weapon necessary. 3) If in future laws change, you might be able to get the rifle back into CA legally. Disadvantages and legitimate anti- storing out of state arguments: 1) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used in California. 2) It can never come back in if in AW configuration if the laws stand. 3) 2A rights not retained in California. 4) No guarantee anything will ever change. 5) Most people do not have this option.
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Last edited by Discogodfather; 08-12-2017 at 3:37 AM.. |
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Options that Allow You to Legally Divest Your Gun Rights
Selling out of State Until July 1st, 2018, it is legal to sell and AW out of state. Since most states allow direct sending of rifles to FFL’s out of state, you can sell your rifle legally online or otherwise and ship it directly to a receiving FFL with their knowledge. BB has to stay on rifle when you ship. Advantages and legitimate selling out of state arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) No modification of weapon necessary. Disadvantages and legitimate anti-selling out of state arguments: 1) Bye bye firearm. 2) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used. 3) 2A rights not retained. 4) Lackluster national rifle market currently, low price. Selling in State At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can convert your AW to non-AW status in one of the many conversion methods and sell it legally in CA. Advantages and legitimate selling in state arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. Disadvantages and legitimate anti-selling in state arguments: 1) Bye bye firearm. 2) You do not have a functional rifle that is ready to be used. 3) 2A rights not retained. 4) Modification required, including cost. 5) Very lackluster local rifle market currently, low price Destruction At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can legally destroy you AW. Methods for this can be found on the DOJ website. Advantages and legitimate destruction arguments: 1) No additional paperwork or otherwise, no notification to the State. 2) Not quite the dumbest thing you can do but almost the dumbest. Disadvantages and legitimate anti- destruction arguments: 1) You just destroyed a piece of your 2A rights, literally Gun Buy Back Program At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can legally give your AW to a gun buy-back program. Advantages and legitimate gun buy back arguments: 1) Get $20 or a gift card. 2) Possibly get on TV next to Kevin DeLeon. Disadvantages and legitimate anti-gun buy back in arguments: 1) You just turned in a piece of your 2A rights, literally Turning It In At any time prior to July 1st, 2018 you can legally turn-in you AW to law enforcement. Advantages and legitimate turning-in arguments: 1) Nothing, this is the dumbest thing you can possible do. Disadvantages and legitimate anti-turning in arguments: 2) You just turned in a piece of your 2A rights, literally
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Last edited by Discogodfather; 08-12-2017 at 1:12 AM.. |
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Reserved
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Last edited by meno377; 08-12-2017 at 5:43 PM.. |
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Last edited by meno377; 08-12-2017 at 8:04 AM.. |
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I'll agree to not comply if you agree to pay all my legal fees, deal?
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You mean giving lots of money to CRPA and NRA-ILA? Or posting news and updates about the registration process that requires hours of work a week for the past 7 months with 70,000 views? Or publishing guides for people to use to help them stay legal? Or promoting 2A causes and going to local city counsel meetings on 2A issues?
I feel like I am at the front already.
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Seriously, thanks for trying to get our rights left alone. I'm sorry it hasn't worked. As you said we have 10 months to prepare. I don't think giving in is an option that will retain your rights.
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Some finned grip products incorporate a ledge or shelf for the thumb which markedly improves weapon handling vs the plain vanilla kydex wrapped grip. Declaring that "some people" think ergos are unnaceptable is a weak argument. For example we can find "some people" who feel that any given model of pistol grip has unacceptable ergonomics.
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Manufacturer of CA AWB Compliance Products from Oct 2009 to Nov 2018
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Thanks for your work. This is quite helpful with some exceptions;
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Thanks, added that note.
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Manufacturer of CA AWB Compliance Products from Oct 2009 to Nov 2018
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Some tend to be more expensive, some tend to be the same price, some tend to be cheaper. Best to just delete that line. How is it a disadvantage if the prices vary from more expensive, through the same price, to cheaper? And please ask yourself why have you arbitrarily chosen the kydex wrap (which we have just established is a legal grey area) as the standard for the price? Why not choose the FRS-15 or HERA stock as the standard? Then all other options would tend to be much cheaper. Continued reliance in several statements on the opinions of "some people" is problematic. Your "guide" should strive to remain as factual as possible. As written it is more of an opinion piece, and there seems to be a bias.
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Manufacturer of CA AWB Compliance Products from Oct 2009 to Nov 2018
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RE: registration disadvantages
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Many of us have long term plans of leaving the state. |
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I guess it was too hard to EVER mention before that you never had any personal experience with grip fins, wraps, stock alternatives? Maybe I missed it in the past, but was always giving you credit that at least you tried them UNTIL NOW.
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Made the changes proposed again.
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And I make kydex grips too, just finished doing about 3 different kinds of Veprs. Those kydex wraps suck the worst in my opinion.
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My opinion is that any design that does not allow you to wrap your thumb completely around the grip is problematic and dangerous on some level. Hence no firearm design, to my knowledge, ever used such a method where you can't get your thumb around the grip. If you can find one that wasn't intended for CA law compliance, let me know.
I never said the Thordsen or thumb wrap around designs were dangerous, just more expensive.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfjJNZx_cyI
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Then maybe you shouldn't be doing this "GUIDE TO LEGALLY RETAINING YOUR GUN RIGHTS."
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I don't get it, I am saying this is a guide to retaining your gun rights in a legal way, as opposed to non-compliance.
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Probably the biggest disadvantage of featureless, which we haven't seen mentioned yet: Featureless rifles constructed by use of any product currently on the market differ in appearance from "free state" rifles. In some cases the appearance is profoundly different.
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Manufacturer of CA AWB Compliance Products from Oct 2009 to Nov 2018
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No, I was inspired by your thread about advantages of registration, which is awful.
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Funny you say that. My OP in my thread was asking a question. How do you equate that with showing 'advantages of registration'?
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Is this one of those non-sequiturs? Who's on first?
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