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Centerfire Rifles - Manually Operated Lever action, bolt action or other non gas operated centerfire rifles.

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  #1  
Old 02-09-2018, 8:07 PM
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Default New to precision target shooting.

Learning to shoot for groups. I always throw last round for some reasons. Pic of 3 groups 5 rounds each, back to back. Center is cold bore with s&b 6.5 140 gr ammo. Other 2 groups are Hornady 140 gr ammo. Disregard 30 cal holes on the bottom.
What might be a cause for thrown round? Thanks.
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  #2  
Old 02-09-2018, 8:54 PM
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Something about the fifth shot causes you to place your finger in the wrong spot. Too little finger is pushing you left!


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  #3  
Old 02-09-2018, 9:03 PM
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Factory ammo isn't always as consistent as one's hand loads can be.

Shooter is always a factor as well.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 02-09-2018, 9:17 PM
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Keep practicing. Your likely just getting psyched up once you see how good those first four are. Are you breaking NPA, between your shots?
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:01 PM
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If you shoot at a target which does NOT show you the size of the group you are working on, you will not get psyched out by the target.
Increase your distance and reduce your magnification so that you can't tell where your shots landed until you walk out to the target.

All that matters for making small groups is accurate rifle/ammo and aiming at exactly the same place every time.

Try a diamond shaped aiming points (targets) as they are easier to aim at more accurately than round aiming points.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post

Try a diamond shaped aiming points (targets) as they are easier to aim at more accurately than round aiming points.
Randall, can you elaborate on this?
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevins750 View Post
Randall, can you elaborate on this?
Ease of cross hairs lined up to split the diamond-shaped target vs trying to place the dot in the center of the target.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
Ease of cross hairs lined up to split the diamond-shaped target vs trying to place the dot in the center of the target.
Ah, makes sense....thanks.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:40 PM
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Make sure your target isn't canted.
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Old 02-09-2018, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevins750 View Post
Randall, can you elaborate on this?
Ok, here is my graphic:



Each of the two left shapes are centered under the crosshairs.
Each of the two right shapes are offset to the left by the same amount.

Look at the top of the diamond as well as the circle, where the red shape disappears behind the crosshairs.



Note how much easier you can see how far the crosshairs are off of the diamond vs. the circle because of the angled lines of the diamond vs. the long single arc of the circle.

The most accurate aiming point is actually a 4 point star because you get MORE angle where the aiming points disappear behind the crosshair.
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  #11  
Old 02-11-2018, 4:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ar15barrels View Post
Ok, here is my graphic:

Each of the two left shapes are centered under the crosshairs.

Each of the two right shapes are offset to the left by the same amount.

Look at the top of the diamond as well as the circle, where the red shape disappears behind the crosshairs.

The most accurate aiming point is actually a 4 point star because you get MORE angle where the aiming points disappear behind the crosshair.
I use something very similar for load development at 100.

Attached is a pdf so one can print their own if they are interested.

I'll toss up a image (non-pdf) so you can see what it looks like before clicking on the attachment.

It has 12 targets on an 8.5x11 paper. In this case, I just used it to test my PCP with 10 rounds prone and put black dots on for the next that I was planning on shooting unsupported. The bigger black dots help with my brain deal with wobble when unsupported.


But honestly, I don't think the issues are with bisecting the target.. I bet it is a combination of fundamentals leaving town.
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  #12  
Old 02-11-2018, 8:52 PM
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I couldn’t use a small sheet. Every charge it walks a bit. Sometimes I’ll see it walk almost 2-3 inches from the previous.

Are you guys slightly adjusting the scope between shots in anticipation for where it might lend
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  #13  
Old 02-11-2018, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyguan View Post
I couldn’t use a small sheet. Every charge it walks a bit. Sometimes I’ll see it walk almost 2-3 inches from the previous.

Are you guys slightly adjusting the scope between shots in anticipation for where it might lend
No need to adjust a scope at all, especially in between shots.

Either your scope is zeroed or it isn't.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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  #14  
Old 02-11-2018, 11:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
No need to adjust a scope at all, especially in between shots.

Either your scope is zeroed or it isn't.
As you work up a ladder the poi moves. Well for me it does. It will move out of a 3 moa target at some point. I know itís not where it hits but how well it groups. For me itís easier to see that itís always on the sticky that I put on.

It canít be me as a bad shot as the groups are good. Just that it all shifts up sometimes. Wouldnít be the scope as it wouldnít group so well
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Old 02-12-2018, 2:20 AM
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Now you are getting into benchrest stuff. They use an aiming square and you line up the crosshairs with the edge of the square. That way you don't shoot up your aiming spot.
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Old 02-12-2018, 5:58 AM
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Somthing along the lines of this
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  #17  
Old 02-12-2018, 8:08 AM
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OP
Are you shooting your groups off of a bench?
Are you using a bi-pod?
Front rest rear bag?
Two bags?
One bag?
Rolled up coat?
What magnification is your scope?
What weight of pull is the trigger?
If a bench is it solid or wobbly?
Horizontal stringing out of a good gun is the shooter and vertical stringing is the load.

Looking at your pictures and ASSUMING the gun is perfect your not getting the shots off at the same point of aim. It could be flinching to high of a trigger pull weight a low magnification scope or one with too heavy of a reticle.
Give us some more details about the gun and the setup and we can help you tighten those groups.
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  #18  
Old 02-12-2018, 8:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyguan View Post
As you work up a ladder the poi moves. Well for me it does. It will move out of a 3 moa target at some point. I know it’s not where it hits but how well it groups. For me it’s easier to see that it’s always on the sticky that I put on.

It can’t be me as a bad shot as the groups are good. Just that it all shifts up sometimes. Wouldn’t be the scope as it wouldn’t group so well
Your question is specific to reloading.

The OP's question was specific to fliers, and trying to examine the cause.

If you're reloading, different charges will yield a different point of impact but only slightly. Less charge should give you a higher POI versus a ladder with a higher charge.

In these instances, I do not adjust my scope since the group will only be an inch higher than my POA. Once I find the right load, then I adjust my scope and begin to mess with seating depth.
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my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
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Old 02-12-2018, 8:19 AM
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By the way, here's another great source. They've got some targets you can print up as well - http://www.accurateshooter.com/shooting-skills/targets/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
For sale/trade Nightforce NXS & Leupold VX-3

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Old 02-12-2018, 8:53 AM
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The easiest and cheapest target is plain white copy paper with a magic marker put a dot on it big enough so you can barely see it.
With typical hunting scopes with those huge thick duplex reticles it is extremely easy to get what Randall has shown.
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  #21  
Old 02-12-2018, 9:28 AM
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are you using a heavy barrel? it not try waiting 3-4 min between rounds to let the barrel cool off, or using a hand held battery powered mini fan to hasten barrel cool.
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Old 02-12-2018, 9:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LynnJr View Post
The easiest and cheapest target is plain white copy paper with a magic marker for on it big enough so you can barely see it.
With typical hunting scopes with those huge thick duplex reticles it is extremely easy to get what Randall has shown.
Off white paper works better for bright sunny days. Your eyes won't strain as much due to the lower reflection.
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikvette View Post
Your question is specific to reloading.

The OP's question was specific to fliers, and trying to examine the cause.

If you're reloading, different charges will yield a different point of impact but only slightly. Less charge should give you a higher POI versus a ladder with a higher charge.

In these instances, I do not adjust my scope since the group will only be an inch higher than my POA. Once I find the right load, then I adjust my scope and begin to mess with seating depth.
Sorry. Getting off topic

Have you shot a 5 shot group that was split 3 touching and 2 touching another spot?

Sometimes I think itís just the load as I donít seperate my brass by weight or my pills.

If yours is just the last shot try what others have said and donít look at the group till your done. This might require backing off magnification but I have noticed this has helped my groups this weekend
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Old 02-12-2018, 1:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyguan View Post
Sorry. Getting off topic

Have you shot a 5 shot group that was split 3 touching and 2 touching another spot?

Sometimes I think it’s just the load as I don’t seperate my brass by weight or my pills.

If yours is just the last shot try what others have said and don’t look at the group till your done. This might require backing off magnification but I have noticed this has helped my groups this weekend
I have, and I've also had the first shot be slightly off only to have the other 4 on top of each other. If I counted only 4 shots, on several occasions, I'd have many groups at less than 1/4 moa@100 yards.

A lot of this is shooter induced; I won't claim I'm a good shooter but I get complimented quite often in person and I still believe that any flier(s) are my fault. Even a factory is better than most behind its trigger.

I've seen bench rest guys wait before they even load a round after having shot one in order to not have the next round 'warm up' as much.

If you're in the bay area, I welcome you to come out and shoot some rounds with me and a few others
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Originally Posted by longrange1 View Post
my gun shoots better with shiny brass...plus not only does the shiny brass make me look like a pimp at the range if the sun catches it just right it blinds the guy next to me which improves my odds of winning the match.
For sale/trade Nightforce NXS & Leupold VX-3

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Old 02-12-2018, 1:59 PM
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I have attached the diamond target that I use to shoot groups and zero loads. I made it for myself in Adobe Illustrator.

When printed without scaling, each diamond measures 92 mm x 92 mm.

At 100 yards, each grid square subtends 0.1 MRAD or one click on most "mil" type scope turrets. At 200 yards each grid square is 0.05 MRAD.



Check out this 200 yard group I shot the other day, it measured less than .1 MRAD, about 0.25 MOA.

Randall chambered and fit the barrel using a reamer that I rented.

Bartlein Heavy Palma 26", 1-7.5" twist, 6mm x 47 Lapua
APA Little Bastard brake

105 Berger Hybrid, HBN tumbled
36 grains Varget
S&B small rifle primer

Everything you do has to be consistent and repeatable.

This Primal Rights guy has a lot of good articles on shooting technique.
https://www.primalrights.com/library...grip-technique
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Old 02-12-2018, 2:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyguan View Post
Sorry. Getting off topic

Have you shot a 5 shot group that was split 3 touching and 2 touching another spot?

Sometimes I think itís just the load as I donít seperate my brass by weight or my pills.

If yours is just the last shot try what others have said and donít look at the group till your done. This might require backing off magnification but I have noticed this has helped my groups this weekend
Randall once told me that split groups can be caused by the front scope base screw coming in contact with the threads of your barrel tenon.

I forget how it causes two distinct POIs, maybe he can chime in on that.
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Old 02-12-2018, 2:24 PM
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US army, marines and NRA have guide for expert guide.
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Old 02-12-2018, 4:32 PM
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I always thought that two different groups was the result of changing position behind the rifle. I could be wrong tho
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Old 02-12-2018, 4:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jta View Post
I always thought that two different groups was the result of changing position behind the rifle. I could be wrong tho
This makes sense. I do move once I shoot.
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Old 02-12-2018, 7:52 PM
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Wow, I learned a lot! My technique is all wrong. I had my buddy try it and he did one small tight group after getting used to the gun.
It's a 6.5 creedmoor varmint barrel in 700 action. Harris bi-pod, shooting of a solid bench and rear bag. Still getting used to bi-pod, always used front bag before. Calvin Elite trigger at 10 oz. Kind of cheeped out on a scope, it's a Viper HS LR 4-16X44. Set at max magnification at 100 yards. Waiting on tax return to get a better scope for about $1500 and bi-pod.
I'm kind of embarrassed now. You guys can tell a lot from looking at the target. Thank you.
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Old 02-12-2018, 8:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyguan View Post
Sometimes I think itís just the load as I donít seperate my brass by weight or my polls


At 100 yards no way. At 600 on a gun fired on a mechanical rest sure, it will make a difference.

Guys want to apply benchrest reloading practices to practical shooting. Even the top guys shooting practical style matches wonít shoot the difference between sorted cases and bullets.
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diver160651 View Post
But honestly, I don't think the issues are with bisecting the target.. I bet it is a combination of fundamentals leaving town.
Fundementals are probably 80% of it.
Then people's lack of understanding proper parallax adjustment is another 15% and the last 5% is probably aiming error.

WAY too many people blindly trust the parallax markings on the scope to be correct.
I usually see group improvements on about 75% of shooters by simply explaining proper adjustment and how to verify the lack of parallax.

It's often the simplest things...
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Old 02-12-2018, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boyguan View Post
As you work up a ladder the poi moves. Well for me it does. It will move out of a 3 moa target at some point. I know it’s not where it hits but how well it groups.
You are doing it wrong.
A ladder test is a series of SINGLE shots at long distance with increasing powder charge for each shot.
Ladder testing is to find the accuracy node.



After you find the node, you tweak the OAL in/out until the group tightens up.
You need to be at 300-500yds to get nice big readable ladders like in the target above.
Ladders at 100yds will just look like a strung out group if your rifle is accurate.

Firing groups of multiple shots with the same charge weight to make a group is load testing, not ladder testing.
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Old 02-13-2018, 6:10 AM
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and this is exactly why i try to tell new/newish guys to hand loading to shoot OCWs or 3 shot groups like paul reid uses.

http://www.texasprc.club/preidloaddev

ladders are for bench rest and F-class guys not new or average shooters.
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Old 02-17-2018, 2:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevins750 View Post
Randall, can you elaborate on this?


Not sure if this got addressed but the diamond shaped target allows you to align the crosshairs of your scope to split the apexes of the diamond at the corners. Your eye will automatically naturally align the apexes with your crosshairs without focusing on them, which is key to good sight picture. Focus on the reticle (NOT the target) and steady pressure on the trigger.

Oh and if you haven't just get Ryan Cleckner's book "The Long Range Shooter's Handbook" and keep it in your range bag!

Long Range Shooting Handbook https://www.amazon.com/dp/151865472X..._Y7kIAb8SW4X3F


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  #36  
Old 02-18-2018, 7:30 AM
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Spyder Spyder is offline
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Primal rights showing up on here. That's funny.
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