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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #961  
Old 11-01-2017, 7:05 AM
press1280 press1280 is offline
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I don't believe the number of course sponsors is really relevant anymore. We know it can pass the House. It should get all GOP votes and a few dems.
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  #962  
Old 11-01-2017, 9:33 AM
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I don't believe the number of course sponsors is really relevant anymore. We know it can pass the House. It should get all GOP votes and a few dems.
We need 218 if we want to take away any excuse for Paul Ryan to let this die a quiet death. Getting onto month eleven and a bill with this many cosponsors hasnt even been heard in front of committee. It is absurd that we need to fight this hard to even get some attention from Republicans.
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  #963  
Old 11-01-2017, 3:10 PM
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I find it odd that people are continuously acting as if there isn't an impossible 60 vote minimum required to get this through the Senate.

I understand this is the House Bill, but unless the Senate throws out the filibuster altogether, yes, this bill was dead before it was introduced, and will remain so, until the unlikely day that Republicans have 58-60 senators. Hell, they couldn't even get 50 of their 52 Senators to vote yes on the healthcare bill. (and no, I want that Filibuster in place for the day (next year or 4 yrs from now) when republicans are the minority, or all these laws will simply be undone by a majority Democrat Congress.)

You can wring your hands all you want about Paul Ryan, but if it passed the House today, this bill would be going... nowhere.

Last edited by mit31; 11-01-2017 at 3:22 PM..
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  #964  
Old 11-01-2017, 6:13 PM
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Senate bill has 38 cosponsors
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  #965  
Old 11-01-2017, 6:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mit31 View Post
I find it odd that people are continuously acting as if there isn't an impossible 60 vote minimum required to get this through the Senate.

I understand this is the House Bill, but unless the Senate throws out the filibuster altogether, yes, this bill was dead before it was introduced, and will remain so, until the unlikely day that Republicans have 58-60 senators. Hell, they couldn't even get 50 of their 52 Senators to vote yes on the healthcare bill. (and no, I want that Filibuster in place for the day (next year or 4 yrs from now) when republicans are the minority, or all these laws will simply be undone by a majority Democrat Congress.)

You can wring your hands all you want about Paul Ryan, but if it passed the House today, this bill would be going... nowhere.
If Ryan does not allow it to come to a vote, he's protecting antis of both parties in the Senate.

IIRC, the Repubs have about a half dozen Senators up for election in 2018 whereas the Dems have something like 23 and many of those are in "red"/conservative states. We NEED the House to pass it so that it will come up for a floor vote in the Senate. There it will smoke out closeted antis whom we (the NRA) can then target to replace in 2018.

"Lather. Rinse. Repeat" until it passes and becomes law.

Put pressure on Paul Ryan. As the Speaker of the House, he's acting on ALL our behalf and needs to hear from ALL of us!

https://paulryan.house.gov/contact/

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  #966  
Old 11-01-2017, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mit31 View Post
I find it odd that people are continuously acting as if there isn't an impossible 60 vote minimum required to get this through the Senate.

I understand this is the House Bill, but unless the Senate throws out the filibuster altogether, yes, this bill was dead before it was introduced, and will remain so, until the unlikely day that Republicans have 58-60 senators. Hell, they couldn't even get 50 of their 52 Senators to vote yes on the healthcare bill. (and no, I want that Filibuster in place for the day (next year or 4 yrs from now) when republicans are the minority, or all these laws will simply be undone by a majority Democrat Congress.)

You can wring your hands all you want about Paul Ryan, but if it passed the House today, this bill would be going... nowhere.
Although the public response to Las Vegas has been tepid at best regarding gun control I don't know that Congress wants "more guns" as its most notable 2017 achievement. Because that's how it will be portrayed and not in a good way. Further, while this bill has absolute opposition from nearly all Democrats we have to consider there are reservations among conservatives and gun owners too. Some may think that concern misplaced or not warranted, but it's there.
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  #967  
Old 11-01-2017, 7:57 PM
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Originally Posted by mit31 View Post
I find it odd that people are continuously acting as if there isn't an impossible 60 vote minimum required to get this through the Senate.

I understand this is the House Bill, but unless the Senate throws out the filibuster altogether, yes, this bill was dead before it was introduced, and will remain so, until the unlikely day that Republicans have 58-60 senators. Hell, they couldn't even get 50 of their 52 Senators to vote yes on the healthcare bill. (and no, I want that Filibuster in place for the day (next year or 4 yrs from now) when republicans are the minority, or all these laws will simply be undone by a majority Democrat Congress.)

You can wring your hands all you want about Paul Ryan, but if it passed the House today, this bill would be going... nowhere.
You find it odd because you don't understand Senate rules and procedure. They could very easily get this done with 51 votes. Hell, they can do it with 50 as long as Pence votes with 2A, which he would likely do.

Pretending that the left will hold themselves to the same standards as the right because we didn't use the Senate to get things done shows a complete naivete as to how the left works.

Paul Ryan is a jackass and I'll be glad to see him out of a job in Congress come the primaries.
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eh why bring logic into this, that makes too much sense... besides when you have bested a fool, you have accomplished nothing and he is a fool.
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  #968  
Old 11-01-2017, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Although the public response to Las Vegas has been tepid at best regarding gun control I don't know that Congress wants "more guns" as its most notable 2017 achievement. Because that's how it will be portrayed and not in a good way. Further, while this bill has absolute opposition from nearly all Democrats we have to consider there are reservations among conservatives and gun owners too. Some may think that concern misplaced or not warranted, but it's there.

Quote:
We want every American to feel comfortable packing a concealed weapon? Around the country?
Yes, and Yes. Easy, no-brainer.
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  #969  
Old 11-01-2017, 8:02 PM
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Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
You find it odd because you don't understand Senate rules and procedure. They could very easily get this done with 51 votes. Hell, they can do it with 50 as long as Pence votes with 2A, which he would likely do.

Pretending that the left will hold themselves to the same standards as the right because we didn't use the Senate to get things done shows a complete naivete as to how the left works.

Paul Ryan is a jackass and I'll be glad to see him out of a job in Congress come the primaries.
Should be easy then 12 more senators to go.
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  #970  
Old 11-01-2017, 8:18 PM
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Breitbart does a good job of summing up our situation:

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...secutive-week/
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  #971  
Old 11-01-2017, 10:57 PM
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Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
You find it odd because you don't understand Senate rules and procedure. They could very easily get this done with 51 votes. Hell, they can do it with 50 as long as Pence votes with 2A, which he would likely do.
If the Democrats filibuster over this I think we still need to meet 60 votes for cloture and the bill to move forward, yes? The 60 vote cloture requirement was dropped for the Gorsuch nomination only - or am I mistaken and it's still in effect?

If not, the Senate could bypass the 60 vote cloture requirement by lowering it, as they did with Gorsuch by a simple majority vote to suspend Rule 22, or they could allow Democrats to amend the bill and would need only a simple majority vote to pass the resulting bill. Another approach would be to attach it to a "must pass" bill the Democrats wouldn't dare oppose or happen to be in love with. IIRC that's how "guns in national parks" was passed and signed by President Obama. Much to his chagrin I suspect.

I'm certainPence would break a tie. There are a few Republican Senators I wonder about - Collins for one, and Kirk would certainly vote no. Testor was disappointing on Gorsuch, Heidekamp and Manchin might not help us. Although it would likely cause Manchin his job. Such is the danger when "pro-gun Democrats" are exposed to the national party on gun control.

Last edited by dfletcher; 11-01-2017 at 11:00 PM..
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  #972  
Old 11-02-2017, 4:51 AM
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At the end of the day, they are all corrupt. A Traitor deserve a traitor's death.
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  #973  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:17 AM
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Correct, the 60 vote filibuster rule is still in affect, and there is no appetite in the Senate to lower it (and I agree).

The Democrats are not stupid, they would refuse to amend the bill and hand the Republicans an easy 50 vote pass, nor would they bend on hiding this as a rider. The Republicans would just end up looking stupid again, like with the health care bill, and the must-pass bill would be held up as their fault... they would have to cave and pass it separately.

So no, as I already said above, there is an impossible 60 vote filibuster that kills this in the Senate.

But what do I know, apparently I don't understand Senate rules or procedures.

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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
If the Democrats filibuster over this I think we still need to meet 60 votes for cloture and the bill to move forward, yes? The 60 vote cloture requirement was dropped for the Gorsuch nomination only - or am I mistaken and it's still in effect?

If not, the Senate could bypass the 60 vote cloture requirement by lowering it, as they did with Gorsuch by a simple majority vote to suspend Rule 22, or they could allow Democrats to amend the bill and would need only a simple majority vote to pass the resulting bill. Another approach would be to attach it to a "must pass" bill the Democrats wouldn't dare oppose or happen to be in love with. IIRC that's how "guns in national parks" was passed and signed by President Obama. Much to his chagrin I suspect.

I'm certainPence would break a tie. There are a few Republican Senators I wonder about - Collins for one, and Kirk would certainly vote no. Testor was disappointing on Gorsuch, Heidekamp and Manchin might not help us. Although it would likely cause Manchin his job. Such is the danger when "pro-gun Democrats" are exposed to the national party on gun control.
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  #974  
Old 11-02-2017, 11:35 AM
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Why not just bury it in the tax bill at the last minute?
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  #975  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
Although the public response to Las Vegas has been tepid at best regarding gun control I don't know that Congress wants "more guns" as its most notable 2017 achievement. Because that's how it will be portrayed and not in a good way. Further, while this bill has absolute opposition from nearly all Democrats we have to consider there are reservations among conservatives and gun owners too. Some may think that concern misplaced or not warranted, but it's there.
Good! MOAR GUNS. That SHOULD be their accomplishment, and if they DON'T want MOAR GUNS as their accomplishment they can go be lobbyists or something. VOTE FOR GUNS OR GET BOOTED. Pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by John Browning View Post
You find it odd because you don't understand Senate rules and procedure. They could very easily get this done with 51 votes. Hell, they can do it with 50 as long as Pence votes with 2A, which he would likely do.

Pretending that the left will hold themselves to the same standards as the right because we didn't use the Senate to get things done shows a complete naivete as to how the left works.

Paul Ryan is a jackass and I'll be glad to see him out of a job in Congress come the primaries.
Someone gets it!

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Originally Posted by dfletcher View Post
If the Democrats filibuster over this I think we still need to meet 60 votes for cloture and the bill to move forward, yes? The 60 vote cloture requirement was dropped for the Gorsuch nomination only - or am I mistaken and it's still in effect?

If not, the Senate could bypass the 60 vote cloture requirement by lowering it, as they did with Gorsuch by a simple majority vote to suspend Rule 22, or they could allow Democrats to amend the bill and would need only a simple majority vote to pass the resulting bill. Another approach would be to attach it to a "must pass" bill the Democrats wouldn't dare oppose or happen to be in love with. IIRC that's how "guns in national parks" was passed and signed by President Obama. Much to his chagrin I suspect.

I'm certainPence would break a tie. There are a few Republican Senators I wonder about - Collins for one, and Kirk would certainly vote no. Testor was disappointing on Gorsuch, Heidekamp and Manchin might not help us. Although it would likely cause Manchin his job. Such is the danger when "pro-gun Democrats" are exposed to the national party on gun control.
The rule is only regarding judicial nominations; and there is no filibuster now for any including SCOTUS.

There still is a filibuster for lower bills.

The senate can do things like short term spending and appropriations @ 51 votes though; which is what a smart person who cared would do.

No one in power cares about our gun rights.

Further; whether or not Heitkamp, Manchin, or McCaskill, Tester, Heller, or others vote for the bill- we then have the record they suck, VOTE THEM OUT. That's what scares them- being on the record, and their record sucking because they're defying the will of the electorate.
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  #976  
Old 11-02-2017, 12:44 PM
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Who opposes this bill? I know of two (CA) , but it seemed like some think the balance is closer to 58/42
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  #977  
Old 11-02-2017, 5:13 PM
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Who opposes this bill? I know of two (CA) , but it seemed like some think the balance is closer to 58/42
Isn't it easier to list which Democrat / Independent Senators may support it? You need 6 at a min, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't have all 52 GOP Senators. I haven't heard of any Democrats supporting these bills.
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  #978  
Old 11-02-2017, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by DolphinFan View Post
Why not just bury it in the tax bill at the last minute?
McConnell and Ryan wont let that happen, they've so far promised that all extra desires will be kept out of the tax bill and the budget.
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  #979  
Old 11-04-2017, 4:54 AM
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Isn't it easier to list which Democrat / Independent Senators may support it? You need 6 at a min, but I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't have all 52 GOP Senators. I haven't heard of any Democrats supporting these bills.
If you look back to the Cornyn bill from 2013?, and get the roll call you'll find 8 Dems that voted for it that are still in the Senate. But Mark Warner came out against it earlier this year, so now you're one short. You'll need to flip another one. Claire McCaskill in MO is in deep trouble and is up in 2018. That's the logical choice.
It all depends though. The ones that voted yes in 2018 may have been "allowed" to do so by Harry Reid knowing it wasn't going to pass. So likely this will have to be part of another bill to get through IMO.
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  #980  
Old 11-10-2017, 8:16 AM
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Thumbs up USA Today: "Shootings ramp up pressure for NRA-backed concealed-carry gun bill"

The countdown begins: 51 days left in this year.

Quote:
America’s recent mass shootings have increased pressure from gun-rights advocates to pass the National Rifle Association’s top legislative priority: a bill to make it easier to carry concealed weapons across state lines, the bill’s author said Thursday.

Rep. Richard Hudson, R-N.C., told USA TODAY the shootings at a Las Vegas concert and Texas church have only intensified his colleagues and constituents’ interest in the Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act. House leaders assured him this week that they are committed to getting the bill to the House floor for a vote before the end of the year, he said.

For many Americans, he said, the horror of the shootings reinforced the belief that carrying a concealed weapon is an important way to protect and defend themselves.

“If anything, the tragedy in Texas underscores why we need to protect law abiding citizens who choose to defend themselves with a concealed weapon,” Hudson said. “It certainly hasn’t changed the timeline. My colleagues have been asking me all week, ‘Are we going to be moving your bill? This is important.’”

<snip>
More at:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ill/849673001/
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  #981  
Old 11-10-2017, 8:19 AM
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Tax reform is the number one priority. I Don't expect anything this year. Particularly considering the latest events.
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  #982  
Old 11-10-2017, 8:25 AM
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I am starting to believe they are incapable of passing anything.
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  #983  
Old 11-10-2017, 11:57 AM
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I am starting to believe they are incapable of passing anything.
I'm sure they'd be capable of passing amnesty which Trump would veto.

I'm equally sure they could pass more free trade deals, which Trumpnwoud also veto.

I'm sure they could pass any number of bills that are explicitly against what people voted Trump for.

Let's not be overly negative; congress can pass plenty of things.
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  #984  
Old 11-10-2017, 2:23 PM
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I am starting to believe they are incapable of passing anything.
That isn't the problem. They don't want to pass reciprocity.

As you can see, they can pass all sorts of things when they want to.

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/#bystatus

Quote:
Enacted Laws
There are 82 enacted bills and joint resolutions so far in this session of Congress.

Passed Resolutions
There are 327 passed resolutions so far in this session of Congress (for joint and concurrent resolutions, passed both chambers).

Got A Vote
There are 421 bills and joint/concurrent resolutions that had a significant vote in one chamber, making them likely to have further action.
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  #985  
Old 11-14-2017, 8:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Paladin View Post
The countdown begins: 51 days left in this year.

More at:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ill/849673001/
Sounds like more talk with no action. Unless the NRA holds these bums accountable they wont move on it.
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  #986  
Old 11-16-2017, 7:13 AM
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Our first cosponsor in over two months. Bringing us up to 213.
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  #987  
Old 11-17-2017, 7:51 PM
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Paul Ryan has ignored national reciprocity now for 45 weeks.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...secutive-week/

He no longer has Tax Reform giving him cover as an excuse....
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  #988  
Old 11-18-2017, 8:18 AM
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If the Republicans think the democrats are gaining momentum into next year, they will realize that they will need the NRA's backing, and will probably move on this.
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Old 11-18-2017, 2:20 PM
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If the Republicans think the democrats are gaining momentum into next year, they will realize that they will need the NRA's backing, and will probably move on this.
Thats exactly what most of us are saying. They dont really care if HR38 passes or not and they more likely dont want to see it put into law. What they do want is to delay it until election season to drive NRA and conservative voters out to the polls.
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