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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #41  
Old 10-11-2018, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
so they are trying to use 6.8 for all 3 types per the article?

infantry battle rifle
marksmen/sniper
squad automatic rifle

is the 6.8 that great that it can serve all 3 roles?
Quote:
Originally Posted by WalterJones View Post
Does it say that the cartridge will be 6.8 SPC? Or will there be a new carteidge developed using 6.8 as the choice caliber?

I read the article a couple of times and can't decide. It looks to me like each manufacturer wi be providing ammo, so are they also designing it?
It's a new proprietary cartridge.

6.8mm GP (General Purpose), XM1186.

It's to be used in the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW).
*NGSW-R = rifle/carbine.
*NGSW-AR = SAW.

It will be supplied by the Gov.
^Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) is the designated primary contractor for the 6.8mm GP ammo.
^Jane's Defense is reporting that LCAAP will not have full production capabilities for the 6.8mm GP ready until 2020.

Bullet weight, bullet composition, case composition, powder type, and cartridge dimensions are all classified SECRET.
^Jane's Defense is reporting it is a 135gr projectile.
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Last edited by Quiet; 10-12-2018 at 12:04 AM..
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  #42  
Old 10-12-2018, 7:53 AM
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Originally Posted by C.G. View Post
I like the 6.5 Grendel as well, but allegedly the shape of the case caused jams in full auto (from articles I recall from long ago).
I heard that as well. Something about the shoulder angle being too steep to feed reliably from a belt. It sounded to me more like a theoretical argument - didn't seem like anyone had actually tested it.

I have 6.5G AR15 and after a break in period it runs like a metronome. There is no difference between firing semi-auto and full auto mechanically. It seems like we are going back to magazine fed squad automatic weapons anyway so is a potential issue with belt feeding really an issue?

Anyway, if it's a greenfield development you can take the ballistic chops of the 6.5G and make a new cartridge that has better case dimensions (if that really is an issue).
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  #43  
Old 10-12-2018, 8:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
so they are trying to use 6.8 for all 3 types per the article?

infantry battle rifle
marksmen/sniper
squad automatic rifle

is the 6.8 that great that it can serve all 3 roles?
Yes. The magic is in the high BC bullet. If the performance is similar to the 6.5G then you have a small frame compatible round that can reach out to the same distance and the 7.62x51.

You have better barrier penetration as well since a high BC bullet does that better as well. The problem with the 5.56 was always poor barrier penetration not lethality.

All this at a small weight penalty.

So what you get is a light sniper rifle with similar effectiveness to a full sized M14 derivative. Then your heavy sniper is something like a 338 Lap.

You get a SAW that has the same range as the M240. That's a truer evolution of the GPMG IMO. Commonality of ammo with the infantryman's rifle with enough range to act as a real MG (something the Minimi cannot do).

Finally, you have an assault rifle that doesn't rely so much on velocity to wound at closer ranges (thus less marginalized by a short barrel), is less likely to bounce off windshields defending a checkpoint, and can defeat body armor.

It's not magic really - just a really good middle ground to cover all these roles. Commonality of ammo is a big deal in a military context.
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  #44  
Old 10-12-2018, 8:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
It's a new proprietary cartridge.

6.8mm GP (General Purpose), XM1186.

It's to be used in the Next Generation Squad Weapon (NGSW).
*NGSW-R = rifle/carbine.
*NGSW-AR = SAW.

It will be supplied by the Gov.
^Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) is the designated primary contractor for the 6.8mm GP ammo.
^Jane's Defense is reporting that LCAAP will not have full production capabilities for the 6.8mm GP ready until 2020.

Bullet weight, bullet composition, case composition, powder type, and cartridge dimensions are all classified SECRET.
^Jane's Defense is reporting it is a 135gr projectile.
well if it is a new proprietary round, then there goes the hope for 6.8 (in whichever version) to gain in popularity and lowered costs.

wonder if this means 556 will either get super cheap or more expensive or die out after 2020 when the military does move over to the 6.8GP? since we all know selling "mil-spec" stuff is the bread/butter of the gun industry. and all the tactical operators will only want what the military has.
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2018, 9:04 AM
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Quiet a laundry list for the new weapon systems for the new 6.8GP.
Looks like a total start from scratch program. Not just the ammo upgrade.

https://www.overtdefense.com/2018/10...apons-program/
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  #46  
Old 10-12-2018, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
well if it is a new proprietary round, then there goes the hope for 6.8 (in whichever version) to gain in popularity and lowered costs.

wonder if this means 556 will either get super cheap or more expensive or die out after 2020 when the military does move over to the 6.8GP? since we all know selling "mil-spec" stuff is the bread/butter of the gun industry. and all the tactical operators will only want what the military has.
I imagine the 5.56 will live a long time more with the U.S. military and even longer in the 2nd and 3rd world military forces.

We can forget about U.S. 5.56 being surplused out to the citizenry. What isn't consumed or given to allies both overt and covert will be demilled.
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  #47  
Old 10-12-2018, 11:20 AM
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NSFW.

Food for thought...this is 5.56 vs 7.62, but the arguments remain the same.



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ABOUT Chuck Pressburg:
SGM(R) Pressburg retired from the Army on 1 Jan 2017 after over 26 years of active service, mostly in Special Operations and Special Missions Units. After Infantry and Airborne Training in 1990, Chuck completed the Ranger Indoctrination Program and was assigned to the 1st Bn, 75th Ranger Regiment.

Chuck’s various assignments included:

10 years in the 75th Ranger Regt including platoon sergeant of a 65 man strike force deployed to Afghanistan twice in 2001/2002. Platoon highly decorated during the battle of Takur Ghar (Robert’s Ridge) for recovery of 2 missing US Servicemen.
24 Months rifle and sniper squad leader 82nd Airborne Division.
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Last edited by elSquid; 10-12-2018 at 11:25 AM..
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  #48  
Old 10-13-2018, 5:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FeuerFrei View Post
It's sorta come full circle.

280 British circa 1945... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.280_British

NATO It's time for the other "partners" to ante up and get off the American teat of protection.
Lets hope they don' start WW3. The last 2 were epic sheet shows.
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Originally Posted by Mystery_Milk View Post
You beat me to it. Since rejecting the .280 British and the FAL over 70 years ago we've just been moving closer to it.

While I would love to see cheaper 6.8 ammo, what's the chance this program doesn't get cancelled like the last few?

^^^^^^^^^^^^
This

First thing I thought, the British were ahead of their time, stupid American politics took over the selection of the NATO cartridge and battle rifle. I would have preferred the FAL in 7mm.
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  #49  
Old 10-13-2018, 5:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Ford8N View Post
^^^^^^^^^^^^
This

First thing I thought, the British were ahead of their time, stupid American politics took over the selection of the NATO cartridge and battle rifle. I would have preferred the FAL in 7mm.
There have always been two factions at war with themselves in the U.S. military: volume of fire advocates and long range deliberate marksmen.

The Spencer v. the 61/63 musket during the civil war. Volume of fire v. long range deliberate shooting.

Long range deliberate shooting gave us the M-14. Volume of fire the M-16 and now the M-4. Warfare demonstrates over and over that volume of fire matters.

The .280 and FAL would probably have been replaced when Vietnam rolled around anyway.
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  #50  
Old 10-13-2018, 5:59 AM
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^^ this, I don't know why the near sexual fervor over shooting bad guys at long range with magical wonder rounds. Afghanistan is winding down. Next conflict will be urban based most likely.

I've never been shot at in anger(did have some ahole place rounds ten feet away from me at one of them freefire ranges in the Angeles national forest once) from what I've heard the argument is that Taliban would fire on troops with PKM's at 900 meters or so. Our return fire was ineffective using M4's. I'm missing the "why" as to why a new long range round.

Next adversary could very likely field armour. I'm thinking better AP performance should be the next big thing to occupy .gov research.
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  #51  
Old 10-13-2018, 9:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Scratch705 View Post
well if it is a new proprietary round, then there goes the hope for 6.8 (in whichever version) to gain in popularity and lowered costs.

wonder if this means 556 will either get super cheap or more expensive or die out after 2020 when the military does move over to the 6.8GP? since we all know selling "mil-spec" stuff is the bread/butter of the gun industry. and all the tactical operators will only want what the military has.
The CMP is going to be very busy. Also we will be very happy. IF it happens.

Last edited by Relativist; 10-13-2018 at 10:37 AM..
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  #52  
Old 10-13-2018, 9:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mlentzner View Post
I heard that as well. Something about the shoulder angle being too steep to feed reliably from a belt. It sounded to me more like a theoretical argument - didn't seem like anyone had actually tested it.

I have 6.5G AR15 and after a break in period it runs like a metronome. There is no difference between firing semi-auto and full auto mechanically. It seems like we are going back to magazine fed squad automatic weapons anyway so is a potential issue with belt feeding really an issue?

Anyway, if it's a greenfield development you can take the ballistic chops of the 6.5G and make a new cartridge that has better case dimensions (if that really is an issue).
I've never had a problem with my 6.5G either, but I only shoot in semi auto. I agree that it may have been a theoretical problem as oppose to real life scenario.
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  #53  
Old 10-14-2018, 4:39 AM
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Apparently the plan is to equip only front line infantry types with the new weapons and rounds. Everyone else will keep the M4 which will become the 21st century M1 carbine equivalant.
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  #54  
Old 10-14-2018, 5:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Blade Gunner View Post
Hague Convention of 1899 prevents that.


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Of course but F that is what I say.
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  #55  
Old 10-14-2018, 7:03 AM
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we will have to wait and see where this goes if anywhere....
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  #56  
Old 10-14-2018, 7:58 AM
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They are developing Telescoped ammunition and weapons. It's not going to be the conventional 6.8SPC or any convention brass cased cartridge. The military wants the next generation replacement of current small arms to be revolutionary versus evolutionary.

I'm waiting for the 10mm caseless pulse rifle....
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  #57  
Old 10-14-2018, 8:03 AM
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Originally Posted by buffybuster View Post
They are developing Telescoped ammunition and weapons. It's not going to be the conventional 6.8SPC or any convention brass cased cartridge. The military wants the next generation replacement of current small arms to be revolutionary versus evolutionary.

I'm waiting for the 10mm caseless pulse rifle....


Or a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZA_95_C6QKA

But really, I actually like the idea of caseless ammunition with dynamic charges.


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  #58  
Old 10-14-2018, 8:22 AM
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Originally Posted by edgerly779 View Post
I have couple ars in that caliber. Should be a lot more brass available.
No brass these new rounds use a plastic case.
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  #59  
Old 10-14-2018, 8:24 AM
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No brass these new rounds use a plastic case.
Where does the heat go that normally goes out with the brass?
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  #60  
Old 10-14-2018, 8:30 AM
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The previous video touched upon this. All these arguments are generally conducted in isolation and fail to take into account it has to be humped by a grunt... With all the additional equipment carried the modern combat infantryman looks much more impressive than their predecessors, but you have to realize under all the equipment, were still essentially the same size/strength with the same limitations. Super Soldier Serum is still a few years away.....
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Old 10-14-2018, 8:32 AM
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Originally Posted by jarhead714 View Post
Where does the heat go that normally goes out with the brass?
There's going to be a "chamber" divorced from the barrel. One of the issues they are having is the loooooong bullet jump into the throat.
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  #62  
Old 10-14-2018, 2:53 PM
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These rounds look a lot like "trounds" a failure from the past.

Link

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