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  #41  
Old 09-18-2017, 3:28 PM
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Given how small older homes are in San Franciso (the longest distance between walls in my house is 11ft and the longest hallway is only 16ft), I'm seriuosly considering birdshot due to overpenetration risk with kids rooms and my father-in-laws medical oxygen tanks in his room and the garage.

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  #42  
Old 09-18-2017, 3:59 PM
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Birdshot might just make an attacker angrier. Bad plan. Seriously lacks the power to penetrate past the rib cage. No.4 buck, or even TTT or BB would be much better.
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  #43  
Old 09-18-2017, 4:06 PM
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BTW, that test is flawed as all the blood is out of the meat, and there is no effective skin simile. I've seen similar, and it really doesn't provide much proof of anything.
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  #44  
Old 09-18-2017, 4:50 PM
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Found this: https://www.bonefroggunclub.com/coll...0rds-leb127lrs

$184.76 ground shipped to me
$190.01 ground shipped with signature shipped to me

This company is great! I ordered some 9mm HD from them and it was shipped quick. Off topic, they lowered their pricing on their 9mm HD when I ordered from them about a month ago. About $25 less for 147gr.
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  #45  
Old 09-18-2017, 5:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
Birdshot might just make an attacker angrier. Bad plan. Seriously lacks the power to penetrate past the rib cage. No.4 buck, or even TTT or BB would be much better.
I wouldn't want to get shot with any of it but anything bigger than #2 birdshot is probably gonna kill a person. I personally use #4 buck but I am OK with using BB in some circumstances.
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  #46  
Old 09-18-2017, 5:51 PM
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I bought a 1000 rounds of Estate buckshot for $59 a case with free shipping. I can only fit 7 in my 590A1. With that being said, I have a life time supply. If I can't do the job with 7 in the tube, I have much bigger problems than any potential threat that may enter my home.
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  #47  
Old 09-18-2017, 7:19 PM
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00 2 3/4 military will usually go through 1 interior wall but not 2, and if it hits anything on either side of that wall might not even penetrate the 3rd drywall layer. I took a shot through a new-ish construction tract house wall and hit a loosely packed laundry basket on the other side and only one pellet got through and that was protruding from a piece of trim.
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  #48  
Old 09-18-2017, 7:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrewN View Post
00 2 3/4 military will usually go through 1 interior wall but not 2, and if it hits anything on either side of that wall might not even penetrate the 3rd drywall layer. I took a shot through a new-ish construction tract house wall and hit a loosely packed laundry basket on the other side and only one pellet got through and that was protruding from a piece of trim.
You should really look at the links provided below. 00 buck goes through a lot more than just one interior wall.

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  #49  
Old 09-18-2017, 8:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
Birdshot might just make an attacker angrier. Bad plan. Seriously lacks the power to penetrate past the rib cage. No.4 buck, or even TTT or BB would be much better.
Smaller shot can indeed be lethal, but it's slow to stop a determined threat. The idea is to stop the threat, not bleed out after they kill you.

I've told my story a few times here, but suffice it to say that ballistic gel gives a pretty good approximation of the penetration of birdshot. I've got about 100 copper plated #5's in my right groin to prove it...and I could've fought back for the first 30-60 seconds or so.
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  #50  
Old 09-18-2017, 8:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LowThudd View Post
You should really look at the links provided below. 00 buck goes through a lot more than just one interior wall.
I'm just saying, you rarely have a bare wall. I thought I had a decent chance at an effective shot and I didn't.
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  #51  
Old 09-18-2017, 8:26 PM
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Anyway, I respect what BoxOTruth is doing, but don't forget there's often a bunch of crap inside walls as well.
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  #52  
Old 09-19-2017, 6:19 AM
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Originally Posted by JagerDog View Post
Smaller shot can indeed be lethal, but it's slow to stop a determined threat. The idea is to stop the threat, not bleed out after they kill you.

I've told my story a few times here, but suffice it to say that ballistic gel gives a pretty good approximation of the penetration of birdshot. I've got about 100 copper plated #5's in my right groin to prove it...and I could've fought back for the first 30-60 seconds or so.
I've personally rolled up a coyote DRT with one round of 20ga #8 bird shot (it removed his throat). I was dove hunting and he ran in front of me.

I mention that not to recommend the practice...but to simply say that it's anecdotal, I got lucky, and real-live circumstances are impossible to predict.

This thread is classic internet waaaaaay overthinking. Buckshot of almost any flavor gives the shooter a very good chance - beyond that it's mostly hyperbolic conjecture.
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  #53  
Old 09-19-2017, 10:46 AM
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I've personally rolled up a coyote DRT with one round of 20ga #8 bird shot (it removed his throat). I was dove hunting and he ran in front of me.

I mention that not to recommend the practice...but to simply say that it's anecdotal, I got lucky, and real-live circumstances are impossible to predict.

This thread is classic internet waaaaaay overthinking. Buckshot of almost any flavor gives the shooter a very good chance - beyond that it's mostly hyperbolic conjecture.
In the late '90s I knew a man whose teenage son took out a 120 pound mt lion with #8 birdshot (12ga), one shot to the head. They were out quail hunting and used what they had for a cat that was stalking them.

Having said that, no, #8 wouldn't be my first choice for a mammal of that size.
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  #54  
Old 09-19-2017, 1:24 PM
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I currently have bird shot in my 12ga. (BB's, not your typical #7 or #8). It's not ideal for most people, but it's fine for my current living situation and my family has seen enough "bird shot" wounds on 2 legged critters to know the damage it does. Normally, I run reduced recoil 4 buck. Federals make a nice pattern for me.
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  #55  
Old 09-19-2017, 3:36 PM
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... and my family has seen enough "bird shot" wounds on 2 legged critters to know the damage it does.
You show your kids pictures of people with gunshot wounds in your free time?

Or did you mean they hunt birds? "2 legged critters" is usually a phrase used for something other than birds.

Last edited by cockedandglocked; 09-19-2017 at 3:39 PM..
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  #56  
Old 09-19-2017, 4:22 PM
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For inside my house I had low-velocity/recoil 00 Buckshot. I have been experimenting with different hand-loads, but I have not come up with anything special - yet.

For outside the house defense (camping) I use 3" Federal buckshot and/or slugs.

I have never had to use a shotgun to defend myself.



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  #57  
Old 09-20-2017, 12:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
You show your kids pictures of people with gunshot wounds in your free time?

Or did you mean they hunt birds? "2 legged critters" is usually a phrase used for something other than birds.
Huh? I'll elaborate - I have 2 retired battalion chiefs and a couple still active firefighter/paramedics in my family that have taken many gunshot calls through their careers. The majority of them were "bird shot" loads from varying distances (most from suicide) but most of the ones from home/indoor distances were enough to stop the person. I'm basing this off what I see in the pictures and their first hand accounts. Point being is that they do pretty devastating damage to people at close range - the current ranges I would be dealing with in my current living quarters.
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  #58  
Old 09-20-2017, 1:24 PM
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Huh? I'll elaborate ...
Yes, that does clarify things, I had been imagining a dad and his young kids sitting around one evening with flashcards of mortal injuries

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  #59  
Old 09-20-2017, 3:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cockedandglocked View Post
Yes, that does clarify things, I had been imagining a dad and his young kids sitting around one evening with flashcards of mortal injuries
When I was a kid(early teens) I opened up one of my mom's text books for the forensic science class she was taking. Saw a pretty gnarly shotgun corpse. Makes you respect just how powerful a weapon it can be.
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  #60  
Old 09-20-2017, 3:28 PM
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When I was a kid(early teens) I opened up one of my mom's text books for the forensic science class she was taking. Saw a pretty gnarly shotgun corpse. Makes you respect just how powerful a weapon it can be.
I remember seeing something similar back in the heyday of the Rotten.com website back in the mid 90's. Over 20 years later and I still remember exactly what those pictures looked like.
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  #61  
Old 09-20-2017, 3:52 PM
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I remember seeing something similar back in the heyday of the Rotten.com website back in the mid 90's. Over 20 years later and I still remember exactly what those pictures looked like.
Ahhhh the good old rotten.com website. Brings back so warm fuzzy feelings of being 12 surfing that site I remember being in middle school and hearing everyone talk about that site. Welll one day I did. Lol it was so gnarly. To this day I remember specificly going to the shotgun suicides. Half blown off faces. Now I just go into FB to see all this kind of stuff. Lol
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  #62  
Old 09-20-2017, 8:20 PM
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If I had to choose one kind of bullet to be shot with from 22 to 12 gauge slug it would prob be in the snake shot/birdshot category. Why would you use this for hd? Maybe use a sword
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  #63  
Old 09-21-2017, 3:29 PM
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Why would you use this for hd? Maybe use a sword
Or a spear!

http://kxan.com/2014/09/21/texas-hom...er-with-spear/
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  #64  
Old 09-22-2017, 12:28 AM
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Forget the slugs, when you miss the slugs will go through the walls.
Mixing slugs and buck, IMO is dumb, in the heat of the moment you will forget which round is chambered.
If you hit the bad guy with a slug and turn your walls into a Paul Jackson Pollock canvas, how does that look to a jury ?

Use what the cops use good ole buckshot.
Yes they use slugs in special circumstances that they can justify, body armor and barricaded suspects that you wont deal with.


At less that 25 yards, Flite control buck is the size of a fist.
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  #65  
Old 09-22-2017, 6:16 AM
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Actually a good majority seem to use the slug now. They are effective at short range and don't waste life saving seconds in the heat of a firefight to do a selective reload if it's already in the tube. And in the case of the Hollywood shootout penetration is an effective tool. However a lot of their engagements aren't inside the home, they're in the streets or more open areas. For this reason I feel buck is perfectly fine for HD. Unless you have a 100 yard lawn you may have to defend across...

Here's a forum article detailing a bit of what I mean.
http://www.lightfighter.net/topic/sh...ect-slug-drill

Last edited by JMercer; 09-22-2017 at 6:32 AM..
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  #66  
Old 09-22-2017, 7:01 AM
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I'm soo glad you keyboard warriers have such a great experiance in kiling people. Did you stock op on dipers as well?
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  #67  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:32 AM
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I'm soo glad you keyboard warriers have such a great experiance in kiling people. Did you stock op on dipers as well?
Wtf are you talking about? So you have to have killed someone before you're allowed to have a discussion about what ammo to use in your defensive weapons?

Not only is that a useless comment, but it's not even remotely true that someone who actually does have experience killing people automatically becomes an expert on ammo selection.

Most people who have shot someone before, did it with the ball ammo that their military issued to them.

If your answer is "any ammo can be lethal", that's great, but that wasn't the question I asked in the OP. I didn't ask what shotgun ammo can end a threat, I asked what the optimal load would be to ensure success with ending a threat, while factoring in collateral damage involved with living in an urban environment.

I'm so glad we have a "keyboard warrior" like you in here, to swing by and throw insults while adding absolutely nothing to the conversation.

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  #68  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:47 AM
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Originally Posted by leadstorm View Post
Buckshot of almost any flavor gives the shooter a very good chance - beyond that it's mostly hyperbolic conjecture.
This is my view - any buckshot is adequate. In view of that, more pellets are more effective than fewer. Check the Box O'Truth on the Flite Control No. 1, and especially the quote at the beginning from AR15.com: https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...ol-1-buckshot/ In my view, the Flite Control No. 1 is the shizz for effectiveness, although No. 4 is certainly big enough to get the job done and 27 pellets vs 15 can't hurt either. If Numbers 2 and 3 buckshot were more readily available commercially, and more info was available on them, I might like one of them even better.

OK, so lots of buckshot is effective. Now we have the overpenetration question. Box O'Truth basically believes anything big enough to be effective will present overpenetration concerns. Personally, I do not buy into the "wall of lead" theory at all. Shots still need to be aimed, so a tight pattern is good.

But what is the minimum overpenetration risk while still being effective? I dunno. But I have the first first two rounds loaded with No. 4, and the rest No. 1 Federal Flite Control.
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  #69  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:50 AM
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I'm soo glad you keyboard warriers have such a great experiance in kiling people. Did you stock op on dipers as well?
I'm glad you know what every person here behind their keyboard here has been through.

very epic dumb post you posted.
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  #70  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:53 AM
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I'm glad you know what every person here behind their keyboard here has been through.

very epic dumb post you posted.
He is the same guy who doesn't understand why anyone would want a sub MOA hunting rifle chambered in 300WM.
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  #71  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:55 AM
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I personally think that within the confines of a tight little SF apartment, essentially point blank, bird shot would be a man stopper. Still wouldn't be my first choice, I go with #4 buck but then I'm not in the OP's living situation.
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  #72  
Old 09-22-2017, 8:58 AM
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He is the same guy who doesn't understand why anyone would want a sub MOA hunting rifle chambered in 300WM.
.17hmr is good for taking Elk, Why do you need 300WM?
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Old 09-22-2017, 9:02 AM
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.17hmr is good for taking Elk, Why do you need 300WM?
Sticks and rocks will kill an elk, why do you need a gun at all???

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Old 09-22-2017, 10:48 AM
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Sticks and rocks will kill an elk, why do you need a gun at all???

notsure.jpg
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:02 AM
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Yes, serious. Seriously sarcastic!

But seriously, I killed an elk with a stick with a pointy sharp thing on the end.
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:04 AM
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I once saw a guy kill three elk in a bar... with a pencil. With a fricking pencil!!
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  #77  
Old 09-22-2017, 11:14 AM
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Yes, serious. Seriously sarcastic!

But seriously, I killed an elk with a stick with a pointy sharp thing on the end.
Ah ok Just checkin'
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Old 09-22-2017, 11:24 AM
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I once saw a guy kill three elk in a bar... with a pencil. With a fricking pencil!!
Try these in a hallway

dragonsbreathshotgun_2.jpg


http://www.wideopenspaces.com/top-5-...-actually-buy/
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Old 09-22-2017, 12:36 PM
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I'm soo glad you keyboard warriers have such a great experiance in kiling people. Did you stock op on dipers as well?
Says the guy trying to sell a bullpup mosin..
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  #80  
Old 09-22-2017, 2:41 PM
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Very entertaining tread

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