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  #81  
Old 01-26-2011, 7:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cntrolsguy
What about me freakshow can I return the redicoulosly crappy reloads you sent me. Send me my money back and I will ship it to you. The crap you sent me is completely worthless. I am in Florida right now and will be in Georgia next week but when I get back I promise to post pics of this crap.
===

Wow, some things never change.

I am a small business owner, for those of you that don't know.

This guy's name is like a character out of a William Faulkner novel.
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  #82  
Old 01-26-2011, 8:34 PM
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Yeah, looks like he really burned bridges with a few screw ups. I've made lots of mistakes too (at my expense). I did a contract for a company doing a ski rental website, they didn't pay my $10k invoice, then went out of business. I learned a lot. Bill every week, if they don't pay for a week, you stop working. I did a lot of extra work because I wanted to see this thing succeed, but I screwed myself trying to be a "good guy" instead of a "good business professional". I put my heart into that job and I should have seen things from a more objective business-persons eye. Stupid start ups!

I personally am not looking to ever get into the ammo-making business. I can see how it's alluring though. You buy a press and crank out some rounds ... hey this isn't hard! I'm taking raw materials (brass, powder, primers, bullets) and I'm creating a finished product that even I would buy! If I can save money by reloading...why can't I MAKE money? Ditto would go for bullet casting ... "Hey, I can MAKE things that people buy and I can get the lead cheap!"...then of course your lack of business acumen screws you over.

I enjoy reloading and I enjoy shooting. I could see that if I were an awesome shooter and I could make money at competitions, that would be cool, but I can't see reloading turning into a job, that would ruin it and make it monotonous...let's face it, ammo reloading is pure factory work, it's almost like a Bugs Bunny factory. Put the pieces in the machine, pull a lever, repeat for the entire day.

But like I said, bad business practices aside, I applaud anyone who gives it a try. Ending up with angry dissatisfied customers sucks, but you know, he gave it a try, right? And he's refunding those people. (NOTE: I don't know why it would take so long since a REFUND indicates that at some point he HAD all that money...he spent people's deposits/payments and didn't come up with the goods)

Anyway, good luck to anyone who tries it!
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  #83  
Old 01-26-2013, 12:00 PM
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old school bump for the noobs!
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  #84  
Old 01-26-2013, 2:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidR310 View Post
old school bump for the noobs!
Thanks for the bump, I enjoyed reading this thread. Sure makes my real estate appraisal business seem simple. Total capitalization = cheap cameras, pencils, 10,000 sheets of graph paper, measuring tapes and clipboard. 20 years, same clipboard. I'm cheap. LOL.

Mike
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  #85  
Old 02-17-2013, 10:06 AM
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Interesting read, thank you!
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  #86  
Old 02-17-2013, 5:08 PM
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Good old Freakshow10MM. There’s a bad name from the past. If you ever see that name, RUN!!! He should have started out this ammo production manifesto with a prolog on how to screw up a group buy. Guy was big on intentions and short on action.
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  #87  
Old 02-21-2013, 1:34 AM
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Very long yet interesting thread, very good info if you're interested in starting an ammunition business. Wish I had some investors to invest into me
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  #88  
Old 02-22-2013, 2:35 PM
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It's a great read, thanks for bumping!
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  #89  
Old 02-22-2013, 6:09 PM
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A lot of guys here with NO idea about biz.


Freak show was not malicious. He was incompetent and naive. But he learned A Lot!!

I think he should just have gone BK, changed his title, and move on...like Romney would do in his situation.

It's one thing to speak of bulls, and another thing to be in the ring.

If you never went in the ring in my mind you are a big blow hard chicken.

Good luck to you Adam. Very unselfish post.

Last edited by bubbapug1; 02-24-2013 at 8:39 PM..
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  #90  
Old 04-01-2013, 3:06 PM
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Its been 3 years, i wish Adam had recovered from his losses. Is he back in the ammo manufacturing?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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  #91  
Old 04-01-2013, 8:11 PM
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Good read Adam, Thank's
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  #92  
Old 04-01-2013, 8:24 PM
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He is still around. He goes by another name and he still makes ammo I believe. I have not seen him on this forum.
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  #93  
Old 04-01-2013, 9:45 PM
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With the recent ammo panic, there's a ton of money to be made in selling
ammo. assuming you have the components. Wonder if there's any restrictions
on selling AP ammo, very high margins.
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  #94  
Old 04-02-2013, 11:38 AM
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Keep your eyes on Sacto. The Politicos are having a committee meeting I believe today. One of the topics, to discuss is an ammo tax and registration to buy ammo. Would this be good or bad for ammo and reloads for sale before and after if passed?
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  #95  
Old 04-30-2013, 2:24 AM
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Next month I have coming $104K. Is that enough to get me started in the ammo business?
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  #96  
Old 04-30-2013, 6:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeager106 View Post
Next month I have coming $104K. Is that enough to get me started in the ammo business?
If you have to ask.... Its not for you!

And btw... A little word of advice... You should not tell the wolrd how much $$$$$ you have coming to you...

Edit: i just saw that was your first post! Lol
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  #97  
Old 04-30-2013, 6:14 AM
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Next month I have coming $104K. Is that enough to get me started in the ammo business?
I'd buy a taco truck instead.
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  #98  
Old 04-30-2013, 7:35 AM
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Originally Posted by jeager106 View Post
Next month I have coming $104K. Is that enough to get me started in the ammo business?
Buy a house, Ben Bernanke will not be satisfied until we are back in bubble territory with housing.
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  #99  
Old 07-21-2014, 3:33 PM
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I'll preface this with two things:

1. Yes this is my first post. So what? Doesn't invalidate what I'm about to say. Take it or leave it. Some might find it useful while other will start talking about trolls and whatever else.

2. Yes I'm reviving an thread from the grave. I'm interested in reloading and selling and Adam's post was the most insightful thing I've found yet. Nobody else on this thread seemed to give an exhaustive, free insight into the details of a reloading business. The information is perpetual even if the last post was a year ago and the original thread was 4 years ago.

Times have probably changed a bit, to say, gotten even tougher, since this thread was started. Even custom loaders or remans are almost unavailable. of course, to a certain extent, this is what creates a business opportunity. High demand with low supply. Bigger capital investments, though, typically mean you better have a long term market and not just a bubble. Should I start making .22LR because it's impossible to find and has double or tripled in price? Not if my recovery period is 5 years and this is a 2 year bubble. Not if the gov't is going to shut it down before I recover. etc.

While reading Adam's post (Freakshow handle), I noticed a few aspects of his business model I disagree with. These comments are not about reloading per se, because I'm a noob at that, but about his business philosophy in general.

The biggest question is as to his philosophy of cash and debt. Many money people like the guy on the radio will tell you "debt is bad". They're talking about personal debt, and even then, I don't necessarily agree. But in the world of business (from where I came), in fact, in many industries, if you DON'T see debt on the balance sheet, you should worry about the management of the company. If they don't have debt, it might mean they're not maximizing their profits. Service industries generally should be debt free, but capital intensive business should typically have debt. Here's some examples:

I have $10,000 in pending orders. I need inventory. I have $2,000 in my bank. I have a 20% margin. I can buy that inventory on credit for $8000, turn the inventory, collect my $10,000, or buy $2000 worth of inventory, collect $2400, spend the $2400 on inventory, collect $2880, etc and eventually fill my orders...if they still exist. Even if you're charged 18% interest (as opposed to a more realistic 5-6%), if you can turn that inventory this month, that's 1.5% on $6000 borrowed, or $90. I made $2000 profit, minus $90 for cost of money (interest), and netted $1910 in a month...versus rolling the capital and hoping my customers waited for me. This is "good debt".

Here's another example. Adam talks about not using debt for equipment. He mentions a piece of equipment that will automatically process cases for $11,000. He says that's too much money and you don't "use debt" so save your cash and buy it that way. Look at it this way: if you buy that equipment for $11,000 versus paying manual labor to do the same job, even at minimum wage, the machine pays for itself in about 6 months. But wait! That's not right! In 6 months, you have nothing but an employee in his version. In my version, you OWN a machine worth (less than) $11,000. For the next six months, you have to pay your employee ANOTHER $11,000 but in my version, you're done paying for that. Now, as far as financing goes... Where are you going to get the money to pay your employee month to month to clean brass? If your payroll is $1500/mo (plus taxes, him not showing up to work, etc), don't you think that's far more than the monthly payment on the machine, even including interest? You might finance that machine with a bank and owe $250/mo for 5 years. Or, you could buy it on a credit card at 19% interest and pay the minimums until you earned enough to pay it off. Remember, it's not "spending" money because you were going to pay an employee $1500/mo anyway. You're investing it. Finally, if you consider what it really costs you for the machine, consider when you buy it, on your balance sheet, you'll book a liability and an asset. No change in your "value" or "net worth". The interest is an expense each month, as is the depreciation. Labor is all expense. So in 6 months, you've paid a little interest, taken a little depreciation, but still have an asset you could hopefully sell for, say, $9000. That means your 6 months of operation cost you $2000 in lost value, plus interest...FAR less than an employee.

Another aspect of "investing" in equipment using debt is to increase production. There is such a thing as spending "too much". If you cannot service your debt, you're in trouble. If you spend $100k on equipment to make 10mm rounds/year, as you mentioned, you still have to market it and sell it. But, if your investment allows you to grow, it might be wise, even if it means taking on debt. Debt that allows you to increase profits is generally good debt. Remember, assets have value and you can sell assets to recoup money generally. How much was your used Dillon 1050 worth?

Finally, remember some recurring costs are fixed and others are variable. Variable costs are generally okay, especially in non-perishables and non-price volatile components. Dell Computer mastered just in time inventory because in just a single week, memory chips could drop in price...and never went back up. But if Hornady VMax bullets are 10% cheaper when you buy a case, then even if you finance it, you will probably come out ahead versus the interest (and versus buying less with "cash"). Worst case scenario, if those bullets generally stay flat or increase in price, you get your money back and maybe a little more if you ever have to sell some. Fixed recurring costs include, for the most part, rent, utilities, clerical, etc. If your rent is $250/month, then you can reduce your "overhead per round" by making more rounds each month. Until you have to expand to a bigger space which costs more, realize that if you ran 3 shifts instead of 2, you are still only paying $250/mo rent, $50 water bill, $30 monthly trash pickup, $2000/mo for the girl that send out your invoices and does your books or whatever. You get the idea. COGS (components) tend to be multiplied by the number you produce. But if you don't produce, it doesn't cost you. And if you produce A LOT, you can lower your "per" cost by volume buying. You eluded to this concept a bit by saying if you have the machine, you have to keep it running. That's kind of the idea. You just keep missing the mark when you say "don't use debt". Debt is good, if it's productive.

As an aside, I once heard an interesting thing on how the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor based on mentality. The rich will often buy something that retains value. Poor people buy heavily depreciating assets. A rich guy will buy a house that will (hopefully) appreciate. A poor guy will rent an apartment with his rent increasing each year and have nothing to show for it. A rich guy buys his wife a diamond ring which she wears everyday. In 10 years, (or 10 weeks) she wants a bigger one. he takes it in and they give him FULL credit for what he paid towards a new one OR he might sell it for more than he bought it for. Worst case, he breaks even on it (ya, ya, opportunity costs, time value of money, etc). Poor guy takes his disposable income and buys the latest Jordans for $150. He wears them everyday for 6 months and throws them away.

So realize that if you're buying equipment that has some resale value, don't look at it as "spending" the money. You're investing it. And if by financing it, it allows you to be more productive or fill more orders, it might just pay you back in spades rather than waiting (indefinitely) to have enough cash. Just be wise about it.

As for who to sell to, here's another adage. You can make more money selling cheap stuff to poor people than you can expensive stuff to rich people. Who is worth more? Walmart or Neiman Marcus? Would you rather make $0.10 net on 100,000 units or $.50 net on 10,000 units? Also, be careful about basing your expansion or business on just a few clients. If you DO take on the expansion because "buying group Z" or "police department X" says "I'll buy 100,000 rds/mo" when you're currently only doing 20,000, you better get it in writing and in blood. If you expand and the deal falls through, now you cannot service your debt and you're in trouble. BUT, if the deal is legit, it might take you to the next level and lower your overall cost per round. Single big customers when you have competition is not good. Boeing can do most of it's business with just a few customers because there's basically nobody else to go to. But your one customer who is 90% of your business will destroy you if they flake and go to one of 100 competitors.

Finally, at least as of today (mid 2014), be wary of supply chain issues. As others have mentioned, you better have a contingency for shortages of everything. Right now, even the reman people selling online are out of almost everything. Apparently there is a bottleneck in something (powder?). Granted, if you're willing to pay the premium, you might get through it buying whatever you can wherever you can. Remember, even if it cuts your 20c margin down to 10c, that's 10c you're not making otherwise. Also, if you cannot get stuff, it's likely nobody can so that inherently drives prices up. You might get MORE than your normal 20c just because you have it when nobody else does! In one of my current businesses (selling hay), my costs nearly doubled during the drought ($50 bales were costing $90-$130 and instead of coming from 30 miles away, they were trucked in from Florida 1000 miles away), but after I marked them up, I was making $30/bale typically because nobody else had any hay. In a normal year, I might make $20-$25/bale because everybody in my area with more than 2 acres is baling hay.

I've just started selling regular, new ammo. Even the distributors are out of practically everything. I'm essentially doing the convenience store concept right now. Buy it in bulk and break it up. You'll pay a little extra because you're here and it's here. I'm looking at reloading and all of the nuances in it, so I found your write-ups extremely helpful. But from the fundamentals of business, I think you're missing out on a few things. I'm glad to see as many people on here complementing you for at least taking the plunge as there are flaming you for apparently not delivering. For someone who has never tried to open and run a business from scratch, they have NO idea of what it really takes. No different than bashing Shaq for shooting 60% from the free throw line. Get your *** out there and do better! But, to that point, I'd hate to think you took money in for something and didn't deliver the product. Maybe you owe an ethical debt burden. You should take that debt on to repay those customers and then figure out how to pay it off. Don't take money from Joe to make Bills ammo. That's a Ponzi scheme like Bernie Madoff stuff. You rarely can recover from that death spiral. You can use Joe's money to buy the supplies to make Joe's order maybe, but you need to deliver Joe's product.

...continued...
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  #100  
Old 07-21-2014, 3:34 PM
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Also, as for buying so much equipment up front (3 machines, one for each caliber, plus 3 for backups) is not the best plan for starting up unless you somehow started with that demand. Maybe 1 in the beginning. You have time at first, so retool the machine and make the rest of your stuff. When it looks like you need a second machine to increase production, get it. Or, at worst, get two machines at first. Run them both so if one goes down, your production is only cut to 50%. I don't know if I'd just have one machine sitting idle. If the primary never breaks, then it's still costing you 2x the machine cost per round in depreciation and financing expense. Or make enough inventory to carry you through the worst case scenario in the event something breaks. Selling 20k/mo and it'd take you at most a month after catastrophic failure? Keep 20k on hand. Also, why 2/8/5? When demand increases enough, run it 3/8/5, or 2/8/6. Depending on your growth curve, you should time capital investments in anticipation of demand. If you're at 80% of your maximum capacity (maximum shifts per day, maximum days per week, etc), maybe you buy your next machine (especially if there is lead time) now. If you're a rocket ship and growth is crazy, buy the next one at 70% capacity so you grow into it. If growth is slower, then maybe buy the next machine at 90% capacity. Like with "no debt", if someone is running at 100% capacity, then it's likely they are missing out on potential profit by not expanding (with all of the caveats about supply chains, market bubbles, seasonality, etc).

You mentioned something to the effect that "after costs and taxes and whatever", you were down to $19/hr net profit. "Is that worth it"? Sure! If you can hire someone to do the labor for $10/hr, then it's like you're making $9/hr for doing nothing. Scale that up. It's kind of like real estate. After interest, taxes, insurance, etc, let's say you make $300/mo on one house. But you don't really do anything for that $300 (hopefully). If you add another rent house, you add another $300. You're not doubling your efforts to double your income. The best thing for a business owner is when they realize that they can pay someone to do the job their doing and still make money. If you're reloading all this yourself for $19/hr, but you can hire someone for $10/hr to do the labor, you net $9/hr. Now, spend your free time (extra 80 hrs/wk now) marketing or researching or otherwise growing your business. next thing you know, your demand has doubled, you have another $10/hr employee, you keep the extra $9/hr, you're now making $18/hr, and you still don't really do anything but think of new ways to grow your business.

...and it's at that time your ungrateful employees will say "I do all the work and all he does is sit around and get rich off my labor". Happens every time. They don't realize you did all that work before they showed up and that your financial well-being is on the line. You created that (despite what Obama says). They should be grateful to have a job. But in every business I've owned or been a part of, the employees always gripe about how they do all the work and the owners get rich off of them. I hope you do well enough to have that problem one day.
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  #101  
Old 07-21-2014, 4:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ___M|9||___ View Post
Very long yet interesting thread, very good info if you're interested in starting an ammunition business. Wish I had some investors to invest into me
We are currently in the barrel biz and we are looking into the ammo biz. Does anybody know the profit margins on ammo? Obviously we are fortunate to already have a warehouse where we make our barrels. We currently wholesale and retail different AR parts so we already have quite a few connections. Our labor cost in Fl. is quite low and have plenty of qualified people. We want to start out small and deal with the customer base that we have already established. Our biggest obstacle is figuring out profit versus capital required. Obviously we can compete with the big boys because of their overhead. We also have a very good nose in regards to sniffing out and finding the best deals.

Last edited by central fl cracker; 07-21-2014 at 8:02 PM..
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  #102  
Old 07-21-2014, 5:12 PM
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This is one of the most informative threads I've read in a long time. Thank you to the OP and also to SuperOpinion8ed.
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  #103  
Old 07-21-2014, 5:20 PM
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The Dillon 1050 is for small quatity production.
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  #104  
Old 07-21-2014, 6:22 PM
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How can you make any long term plans when you never know if you can buy components? Last 6 years have been a complete zoo for ammo...
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  #105  
Old 07-21-2014, 6:56 PM
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Super8 just gave a Finance 101 course.
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  #106  
Old 07-21-2014, 11:52 PM
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damn necros...

Pay attention! I said NECRO...
Fine I will read it later...
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  #107  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:17 AM
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Trust me it's worth. The hate is strong in this thread.
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  #108  
Old 07-22-2014, 12:19 AM
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Logical arguments aside, in the real world, there are a few new factors that will majorly impact any new ammo start-up:

Supply chain: you can get primers, brass, equipment some rifle powders, but no pistol powders. You want to load 10Mm rounds in the next year? Impossible. To make things worse, wholesale prices are 10-50% higher than they was 3 years ago.

You are considering loading 22lr? Let us know how that pans out.

Crazy marketplace: as soon as you do produce something to sell, you better race it to market, before the bottom drops out (see AR15s this spring, and 9mm reloads last week) ZNot only did all the extra margin evaporate, but in many cases, the prices are lower than pre-panic. Which brings us to...

Margins: now that you paid a little extra to get your components, and you are chasing the dragon on supply vs demand, margins are lower than ever.

Skilled Labor: Making 10k rounds per day is not as easy as it sounds. Most people I come across are mechanically inept, and operating these machines takes more skill than being a CNC operator, and much much more troubleshooting capability.

Competition: How many new ammo guys are there today, than there were 3 years ago?

There are a lot of new/extra challenges than there were in 2010, when this thread was started. Re-reading some of it made me chuckle.
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  #109  
Old 07-22-2014, 1:06 AM
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Great thread and great late night reading. Thanks to Super8 for bringing it back to life.
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  #110  
Old 07-22-2014, 9:55 AM
Mike402 Mike402 is offline
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Great thread and great late night reading. Thanks to Super8 for bringing it back to life.
Agreed...I couldn't sleep last night & was riveted reading this at midnight. Great lessons to be learned not only in the world of ammo/reloading, but small business in general.
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  #111  
Old 07-22-2014, 10:34 AM
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This thread rules. As someone who is not at all business savvy, I think there's some really helpful info here.
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Old 07-22-2014, 11:33 AM
sl0re10 sl0re10 is offline
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Thanks for the info. Instead of doing a K here or a few K there, I would rather do it in runs of between 30K to 50K. Any idea where I can get those kinds of numbers on brass? I have never really bought brass, as I just pick up enough at the range to support my own habit. I'm with you on the overhead. I don't really have any. Just gonna be insurance and ITAR. I am actually starting off small as I am doing it cash out of pocket. Fortunately I have a good paying job where I can pretty much work as little or as often as I like, so once I am up and running I can still work a few(or more) days a month to keep my job and make sure my bills get paid.
I worked for an employment agency once as a contract employee... where every 'employee' was, on the books / officially, the head of their own branch (division, whatever) within the employment agency. We could submit 'expense reports' to get our out of pocket costs refunded pretax while the remainder of the money we brought in went out to us as W2'ed pay (minus the agency's cut of course... but it was transparent what it was). The money wasn't pooled or held by the agency long (it came in and our share went out to us within two weeks as a paycheck) so not a lot of room for shenanigans.

Something like it might be the way to go for people who want to do small ammunition manufacturing. X% of sales goes to shared overhead (rent*, insurance, licenses, accounting costs, et cetera)... If people in it want to share / split equipment or component costs; they could but they spend out of their own pockets and only get reimbursed as the money comes in to their division (via their sales) to reimburse them... and no one else assumes liability for the purchases they didn't opt into (and can be drummed out / "fired" for touching it without permission).

The agency is still around so their model seems to have held up in the marketplace... the whole setup actually made the IRS happy as it made people employees of someone (rather than independent contractors) with well kept accounting info... wage withholding done properly, et cetera... and/or it didn't do all the things the IRS hates that independent contractors tend to do wrong.

Also; on top of itar... California has a yearly corporation tax. I think its $800 a year as a fee to operate one and I don't see a way around it. So; expenses like these could be spread around and if you wanted a small ammo company that only made 4-10k rounds a month or what not... it could still be doable...

* get a shared shop space in an industrial area and do the work there for zoning reasons.

Last edited by sl0re10; 07-23-2014 at 5:37 AM..
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  #113  
Old 07-22-2014, 9:40 PM
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Logical arguments aside, in the real world, there are a few new factors that will majorly impact any new ammo start-up:

Supply chain: you can get primers, brass, equipment some rifle powders, but no pistol powders. You want to load 10Mm rounds in the next year? Impossible. To make things worse, wholesale prices are 10-50% higher than they was 3 years ago.

You are considering loading 22lr? Let us know how that pans out.

Crazy marketplace: as soon as you do produce something to sell, you better race it to market, before the bottom drops out (see AR15s this spring, and 9mm reloads last week) ZNot only did all the extra margin evaporate, but in many cases, the prices are lower than pre-panic. Which brings us to...

Margins: now that you paid a little extra to get your components, and you are chasing the dragon on supply vs demand, margins are lower than ever.

Skilled Labor: Making 10k rounds per day is not as easy as it sounds. Most people I come across are mechanically inept, and operating these machines takes more skill than being a CNC operator, and much much more troubleshooting capability.

Competition: How many new ammo guys are there today, than there were 3 years ago?

There are a lot of new/extra challenges than there were in 2010, when this thread was started. Re-reading some of it made me chuckle.
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  #114  
Old 07-22-2014, 9:56 PM
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Does the new guy get paid by the word?

Thanks for reviving bad memories.

Adam poked the pooch by the numbers and a lot of us got burned.
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Old 07-23-2014, 4:54 PM
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Are people still missing firearms? I know quite a few got burned on ammo purchases.

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Does the new guy get paid by the word?

Thanks for reviving bad memories.

Adam poked the pooch by the numbers and a lot of us got burned.
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  #116  
Old 07-23-2014, 6:04 PM
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I've pal'ed around with lots of people who were trying to make a living in the hobbies we were into. RC airplanes, windsurfing, ham radio, shooting. The same warning from most of those who were in the business:

The best way to take the fun out of a hobby for yourself is to try to make a living off of it.

I'm glad I never did.
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  #117  
Old 10-22-2014, 2:15 PM
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While I realize this is a necro, I have to admit, its done me a lot of good reading it, because it reminds me how easy it is to fail in business if you dont do the right thing.
Is Adam still around? I would love to know the final tally of whether or not everyone got their refunds.
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  #118  
Old 10-22-2014, 2:54 PM
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I haven't heard from him in several years. I managed to get MY stuff back from him. (I sent a .510 DTC rifle to him, so he could do testing), but haven't followed it other than reading this thread, since.
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  #119  
Old 10-23-2014, 8:03 AM
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It's interesting that back in July, pistol powder was unobtanium.. that too is starting to trickle in and there have been several commercial substitutes available for at least a couple of months.. What we see as off the shelf stuff is not what the commercial 06 FFL operators sees, they have access to more things and more of it at reduced rates..
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  #120  
Old 10-23-2014, 8:28 PM
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one of the best threads I've read.
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