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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #121  
Old 07-10-2012, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SilverTauron View Post
There are times open carry isn't avoidable, such as when you buy a gun without a case or box. You buy a nice used rifle that didn't come with a box, and it doesn't fit the cases in the store. What now?
The obvious solution to this problem would be to bring your own box. You shouldn't have to do that in order to buy a firearm, but it's not really going to stop anyone who wants one from being able to buy a gun.
====
However, I do agree with the notion that complicity doesn't protect your rights. That being said, filing lawsuits/donating to good cases while you wait to be able to exercise your rights isn't that. It's being smart.

Fight when you can win, hide when you can't.
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  #122  
Old 07-10-2012, 2:01 AM
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Wow, this thread got Godwinned really quickly.
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  #123  
Old 07-10-2012, 3:18 AM
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Default UOC drama.

UOC events happened and the legislature responded and now the legislature is going to go after "long guns" too.

Now did we have a rash of gun related violence due to open carry.
Did open carriers draw their weapons on the police.

The reality was UOC was a pain in the *** due to the GFZ's in urban areas which is why alot of people didn't consider it a viable option.

The UOC movement dared to have public gatherings in public places and dare speak out through words and deeds, support for average citizens being able to carry arms for self defense.

The reality is UOC never was viable self defense option because the reality is if you are in a hostile situation, most people couldn't draw and load their guns fast enough.

What UOC was however IMHO was "unpopular political expression", kinda like buring "Old Glory".

Perhaps a well funded, tailored and strategized 1st amendment suit is in order after we have cleared away all the other low hanging fruit first.

Nicki
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  #124  
Old 07-10-2012, 7:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Gray Peterson View Post
Wow, this thread got Godwinned really quickly.
What does that mean?
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  #125  
Old 07-10-2012, 7:57 AM
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Originally Posted by AyatollahGondola View Post
What does that mean?
http://feralgenius.blogspot.com/2012...godwinned.html

A.W.D.
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  #126  
Old 07-10-2012, 8:13 AM
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Originally Posted by southernsnowshoe View Post
Complicity is never the correct advise when people are defending their rights. UOC was a "small number of gun owners" because the reality is, that the vast majority of california gun owners are ambivalent as to their gun rights, or lack thereof. The proof of that is the mess we find ourselves in.

Want to keep the right to carry your long gun? Lets march in Sacramento and carry them. I would be there. no way in hell it would ever happen though.

Show me where complicity, and a superior knowledge of our California socialist political system, has equated to any success in advancing gun rights.

We can talk forever about this, and nothing is ever going to change until
we as men, decide which law has finally gone to far. And at what point we start acting like men that deserve the rights given to us that were paid for in blood.
There was at least one "march" in Sacramento as close to the capitol as lawfully allowed. Not enough people came to matter to the suits in charge this time.

I'm not a regular poster here in Calguns, mainly because I have another battle front I'm heavily involved in. But this issue is near and dear to me also. Lots of people seem concerned about losing their "rights", but there is still a reluctance to engage the battle as it unfolds. So many of us cling to our arms as not only the last resort, but the only resort. There seems to be a feeling among gun owners that as long as we have our guns, no one will take them away. The air around the gun owner community seems to be permeated with an aroma of sudden bravado syndrome in that we will go from a group of compliant citizens to an army of growling revolutionaries at the first sight of gun siezing nazis kicking down the doors. I thought that way too, many years ago, but not so much now. We don't have the infrastructure in place or even in the works to go that route, and the thought of counting on my neighbors to organize and defend the bill of rights when it came time is more of a joke than a plan. well, it's actually a plan for suicide. They won't, for the most part, take part in shaping the laws, and curbing the power of the lustful in their government by peaceful means. You don't have to look any farther than this thread to see that, and extrapolate the numbers.

I'd ask you all; how would you know who will stand beside you in the aforementioned governmental siezing event? Surely the internet and your ties to this forum will have been cut by then. So you'll be counting on your neighbors, or those you fought alongside with during the peaceful battles. The legislative option is a good place to develope those relationships and get a feel for whom you can count on, and you can do it without shedding a drop of blood. Those suits of siezure have taken a management position at the head of the beast, and these days bills nearly walk themselves through the process because the way has been not only paved, but grooved and tilted one direction. There is hardly any resistance in there. The NRA shows, but few others, so that emboldens those within the hallowed walls.

I do see more people are worried about Yee's bullet button law than open carry, and for the life of me I don't see why. Not that I agree with it, because I don't, but that a right to own a fast firing, multiple round capacity gun that you have to keep hidden is more of a big deal than a law forcing you to keep all your guns hidden. That's not the point of my rant here really, as this thread was in regards to building that infrastructure of rights protection, and the majority of that is done in the legislative arena. I look around there, and see no one. It's not all that comforting to know that people are clinching their rifles at home writing "don't worry, we got yer back".
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  #127  
Old 07-10-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by nicki View Post
The reality was UOC was a pain in the *** due to the GFZ's in urban areas which is why alot of people didn't consider it a viable option.
...
The reality is UOC never was viable self defense option because the reality is if you are in a hostile situation, most people couldn't draw and load their guns fast enough.

What UOC was however IMHO was "unpopular political expression", kinda like buring "Old Glory".

Perhaps a well funded, tailored and strategized 1st amendment suit is in order after we have cleared away all the other low hanging fruit first.

Nicki
I fully agree that UOC isn't a particularly good form of self defence, but I do not think a 1st amendment suit would work. I could see some twisted judicial logic shenanigans being used to claim that airsoft and other imitation guns are enough to get your point across.
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  #128  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by nicki View Post
UOC events happened and the legislature responded and now the legislature is going to go after "long guns" too.

Now did we have a rash of gun related violence due to open carry.
Did open carriers draw their weapons on the police.

The reality was UOC was a pain in the *** due to the GFZ's in urban areas which is why alot of people didn't consider it a viable option.
Yup. I was sympathetic to the UOC and still think Constitutional/Vermont carry should be the legal standard but never had any ability to OC since my house is locked in a bunch of overlapping victim disarmament zones in LA County and Theseus' example has always been out there.
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  #129  
Old 07-10-2012, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernsnowshoe View Post
Complicity is never the correct advise when people are defending their rights. UOC was a "small number of gun owners" because the reality is, that the vast majority of california gun owners are ambivalent as to their gun rights, or lack thereof. The proof of that is the mess we find ourselves in.

Want to keep the right to carry your long gun? Lets march in Sacramento and carry them. I would be there. no way in hell it would ever happen though.

Show me where complicity, and a superior knowledge of our California socialist political system, has equated to any success in advancing gun rights.

We can talk forever about this, and nothing is ever going to change until
we as men, decide which law has finally gone to far. And at what point we start acting like men that deserve the rights given to us that were paid for in blood.
Wake up.

While UOC "activists" were busy getting UOC banned they could have been doing something positive for our rights.

If we want to get in the Godwin category, Hitler lost because he fought a battle on too many fronts.

UOC is a fight we didn't need and UOC activists are making sure we lose.

You can't think strategically and you don't know how to win. You are like underwear gnomes with guns.

The reason why we are asking you to do nothing is because you don't seem to be able to do anything right.

You can't even get nothing right and that is why we are frustrated with you.
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  #130  
Old 07-10-2012, 12:20 PM
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I am completely for open carry... but if open carry like this puts a bad taste in my mouth, I can't say I am surprised if anti2A people REALLY don't like it. Responsible open carry isn't fishing for LEO eff ups. Case in point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdWvL...&feature=inbox
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  #131  
Old 07-10-2012, 1:53 PM
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Originally Posted by wash View Post
You can't even get nothing right and that is why we are frustrated with you.
I would characterize UOC evangelism as not even wrong.
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  #132  
Old 07-10-2012, 2:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Wake up.

While UOC "activists" were busy getting UOC banned they could have been doing something positive for our rights.

If we want to get in the Godwin category, Hitler lost because he fought a battle on too many fronts.

UOC is a fight we didn't need and UOC activists are making sure we lose.

You can't think strategically and you don't know how to win. You are like underwear gnomes with guns.

The reason why we are asking you to do nothing is because you don't seem to be able to do anything right.

You can't even get nothing right and that is why we are frustrated with you.
So how does this make you any better than the UOC crowd? Telling people to essentially "sit down and shut up" like they are 5 year olds because they dont agree with you isnt the way to win the fight either.

I dont agree with using UOC as free speech/political protest, but I am not going to treat them like children because I dont agree with their methodology.

If the strategies professed on this forum were so successful shouldnt we be a lot further down the road than we are now. I think people have a right to be frustrated at this point with the whole, "this is chess, not checkers" mantra. Some of us may want to actually see dramatic progress in our lifetime, maybe that makes me unreasonable.... At least some of us have the opportunity to leave this state in the near future, others may not be as fortunate.

Last edited by Mr.Sandman; 07-10-2012 at 2:19 PM..
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  #133  
Old 07-10-2012, 4:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
I dont agree with using UOC as free speech/political protest, but I am not going to treat them like children because I dont agree with their methodology.
Maybe it's 'their' results that have rubbed some the wrong way?

I'm taking the PoV that it's near impossible to beat a dealer holding a fanned deck. The current game is just whittling away the resistance until a critical mass can no longer be achieved.
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  #134  
Old 07-10-2012, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.Sandman View Post
So how does this make you any better than the UOC crowd? Telling people to essentially "sit down and shut up" like they are 5 year olds because they dont agree with you isnt the way to win the fight either.

I dont agree with using UOC as free speech/political protest, but I am not going to treat them like children because I dont agree with their methodology.

If the strategies professed on this forum were so successful shouldnt we be a lot further down the road than we are now. I think people have a right to be frustrated at this point with the whole, "this is chess, not checkers" mantra. Some of us may want to actually see dramatic progress in our lifetime, maybe that makes me unreasonable.... At least some of us have the opportunity to leave this state in the near future, others may not be as fortunate.
Dramatic progress?

We are seeing dramatic steps backward due to the actions of people who are acting like children.

Dramatic progress requires actually winning and winning starts with competence.

UOC "activists" never had a plan except for carrying empty guns and making the local news (which never helped).

I am proud to say I haven't set back our rights at all and I've done all I can locally to protect them.

If you can't say that, do something about it (not UOC).
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You suck!!! Your are wrong!!! Stop it!!!
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  #135  
Old 07-10-2012, 5:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Wake up.

While UOC "activists" were busy getting UOC banned they could have been doing something positive for our rights.

If we want to get in the Godwin category, Hitler lost because he fought a battle on too many fronts.

UOC is a fight we didn't need and UOC activists are making sure we lose.

You can't think strategically and you don't know how to win. You are like underwear gnomes with guns.

The reason why we are asking you to do nothing is because you don't seem to be able to do anything right.

You can't even get nothing right and that is why we are frustrated with you.
I am wide awake partner. Like I said earlier, show me. show me a specific example where your kool-aid drinking, *** kissing, kumbaya, cant we all just get along tactics have helped the cause.......seriously...where?.....was it the A/W ban? high cap mags? why cant I buy a colt pistol here anymore? I'm sure its not going to save my bullet button now either.


What does thinking strategically mean to you exactly? enlighten me yoda.....obviously to people with your mentality, it means wait until every type of firearm and firearm activity is banned in this state and then scratch your head in amazement that your superior intellect was trumped by fascism.


All im saying is we need new tactics, but they wont mean a damn thing unless we participate in large numbers.
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  #136  
Old 07-10-2012, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Once again, thank you UOCers.

^^^^^^ THIS! ^^^^^^

*Golf Clap*
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  #137  
Old 07-10-2012, 5:22 PM
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Originally Posted by bigdawg86 View Post
I am completely for open carry... but if open carry like this puts a bad taste in my mouth, I can't say I am surprised if anti2A people REALLY don't like it. Responsible open carry isn't fishing for LEO eff ups. Case in point.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdWvL...&feature=inbox
I agree with this. It's long been the opinion of most CA gun organizations with weight that UOC is bad PR, but some peoples children just never learned to listen.
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  #138  
Old 07-10-2012, 5:25 PM
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Originally Posted by southernsnowshoe View Post
What does thinking strategically mean to you exactly? enlighten me yoda.....obviously to people with your mentality, it means wait until every type of firearm and firearm activity is banned in this state and then scratch your head in amazement that your superior intellect was trumped by fascism.


All im saying is we need new tactics, but they wont mean a damn thing unless we participate in large numbers.


I like this guy! He made a good point there...

- 10 round Capacity
- UOC (I dont really care)
- Bullet Buttons
- "AW"B
- CCW/LTC issuance

The problem with this state is that if you over sleept one day you might just wake up a criminal.
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  #139  
Old 07-10-2012, 5:37 PM
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I normally don't like taking credit but Sunnyvale didn't ban gun stores because of what I and many other civil rights activists did to fight new regulations.

The CGF LTC Sunshine initiative including the Richards case is what turned Sacramento in to a virtual shall issue county. I donated money toward that effort.

I invented the $0.25 California FAL magazine lock which makes it cheaper and easier to make a fixed magazine FAL without drilling and tapping the hardened magazine catch.

I do what I can and there is progress if you don't count the screw-ups from UOC and a few ill advised lawsuits filed by people who should have known better.
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  #140  
Old 07-10-2012, 9:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
Dramatic progress?

We are seeing dramatic steps backward due to the actions of people who are acting like children.

Dramatic progress requires actually winning and winning starts with competence.

UOC "activists" never had a plan except for carrying empty guns and making the local news (which never helped).

I am proud to say I haven't set back our rights at all and I've done all I can locally to protect them.

If you can't say that, do something about it (not UOC).
If you read my post you would have seen that I was NOT endorsing UOC as a form of speech or protest.

My point was that UOC nor the "chess, not checkers" mentality has been damn near ineffective so far to ebb the tide of new legislation. You knock them down, and they get right back up. Therefore who is fooling who, is the so called "higher ground" necessarily better, or does it just make you feel better?
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  #141  
Old 07-10-2012, 10:19 PM
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Sufferin' succotash.....

I'm afraid you cannot go on arguing unless you pay



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=
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  #142  
Old 07-10-2012, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wash View Post
I normally don't like taking credit but Sunnyvale didn't ban gun stores because of what I and many other civil rights activists did to fight new regulations.

The CGF LTC Sunshine initiative including the Richards case is what turned Sacramento in to a virtual shall issue county. I donated money toward that effort.
Yep, really like the sunshine initiative.

However, I'm uncertain about Sacramento's "shall issue" status, seeing how they're so "backlogged" on purpose that, unless things have changed, it's nigh unto impossible to get an LTC there anymore. That is, they now appear to be "shall issue" in name only, while being "no issue" in reality.

Which is another way of saying that it looked like we made real progress there, until they decided they didn't want to play anymore.


Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I suspect I'm not, and I suspect the anti-gun strongholds are going to use Sacramento as an example of how to deny the right even in the event that "shall issue" is forced upon them by the courts.
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  #143  
Old 07-10-2012, 10:31 PM
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I blame everybody who didn't UOC, you hid in the shadows and got us where we are.




That sounds just as stupid as "blame the UOC" to me.
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  #144  
Old 07-10-2012, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Fate View Post
Not really. The problems started when UOCers began going out in large groups, posting videos on YouTube/Facebook, calling the media to offer interviews and looking for a government/LEO reaction. It was motivated by political speech and in some cases a desire to get a cash payout from a LEO department for false arrest (not defense). However the method of that "speech" with weapons on their hips had unforseen (by the UOC crowd) consequences.

The individual, single carrier was never a problem and would have never awakened the sleeping bear.
So we have a right to bear arms...as long as we do not exercise that right?
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  #145  
Old 07-12-2012, 3:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Get3CoffinsReady View Post
So we have a right to bear arms...as long as we do not exercise that right?
The state of California disagrees with your legal analysis of what "right" you have when it comes to carry. Well played sir.
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  #146  
Old 08-07-2012, 12:10 PM
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Move the video clip cursor to:
2 : 30 : 00 to see only the longun bill hearing


http://calchannel.granicus.com/Media...=7&clip_id=624

Last edited by AyatollahGondola; 08-07-2012 at 12:12 PM..
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  #147  
Old 08-29-2012, 2:01 PM
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AB 1527 passed, now goes to Gov Desk.....This must be stopped!!!
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  #148  
Old 08-29-2012, 2:38 PM
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does this new legislation apply to .22's? i know some of the bans regarding rifles do not apply to .22's ...also anyone know the current law on concealed carry of rifle? also if .22 is exempt?
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