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Competition, Action Shooting And Training. Competition, Three gun, IPSC, IDPA , and Training discussion here.

View Poll Results: What are your feelings about Front Sight?
Great Training for Beginners Only. 66 7.86%
Great Training Beginner and Advanced. 563 67.02%
The Quality of Training is Going Down Hill. 18 2.14%
I paid too much for my Membership! 39 4.64%
They will go out of business this year! 21 2.50%
Don't want anything to do with them! 133 15.83%
Voters: 840. You may not vote on this poll

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  #8761  
Old 11-22-2017, 12:50 PM
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On Monday during the paperwork, they already mentioned that it was a student and that's why we were signing the Dry Practice release forms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
I seen the news flash on the FS Facebook page, although they never actually said it was a student (they certainly guessed it was likely)


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  #8762  
Old 11-23-2017, 4:52 AM
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The Dry Practice forms have been around since the beginning of Front Sight in the late 1990's - long before there were ND's in hotel rooms.

I've done 4-Day Pistol, Pistol Skill Builder, Advanced Tactical Handgun, 4-Day Advanced Integrated Handgun, 4-Day Rifle, Rifle Skill Builder, Advanced Tactical Rifle (now Long Gun Tactical) and 4-Day Shotgun. Also been the Student of the Week, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHtFn50yl4s&t=11s
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  #8763  
Old 11-23-2017, 6:07 PM
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Yep, they have been using dry practice waivers for a while. But, ND's are a good reason for it in general.... Also, it should help students realize it is serious business.
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  #8764  
Old 11-26-2017, 9:40 AM
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weather looks like it should be nice this week, highs in the 60's.
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  #8765  
Old 11-26-2017, 9:41 AM
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weather looks like it should be nice this week, highs in the 60's.
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  #8766  
Old 11-26-2017, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Birdzell View Post
The Dry Practice forms have been around since the beginning of Front Sight in the late 1990's - long before there were ND's in hotel rooms.

I've done 4-Day Pistol, Pistol Skill Builder, Advanced Tactical Handgun, 4-Day Advanced Integrated Handgun, 4-Day Rifle, Rifle Skill Builder, Advanced Tactical Rifle (now Long Gun Tactical) and 4-Day Shotgun. Also been the Student of the Week, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHtFn50yl4s&t=11s
Very cool!!! I always wondered if a CG ever got on camera during any of those Student of the Week videos. I thought I watched all of them, but I've never seen this one. You still rockin' the 1911?
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  #8767  
Old 11-26-2017, 10:34 AM
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excellent video Billy!
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  #8768  
Old 11-27-2017, 8:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XDJYo View Post
Very cool!!! I always wondered if a CG ever got on camera during any of those Student of the Week videos. I thought I watched all of them, but I've never seen this one. You still rockin' the 1911?
I prefer a Sig P320 or a Smith & Wesson M&P.
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  #8769  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Birdzell View Post
I prefer a Sig P320 or a Smith & Wesson M&P.


What?!?!?! Heresy!!! Lol!
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  #8770  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LV_G22 View Post
We have a new FS HCM.

Mr. Shane Goldman passed the test on 11/13/2017 to become #26

Congrats Shane!!!!
Thank you for the recognition! Shane.
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  #8771  
Old 11-28-2017, 5:37 AM
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Welcome Shane, and, Congratulations!
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  #8772  
Old 11-28-2017, 5:39 AM
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Controlled pair...
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  #8773  
Old 11-28-2017, 8:12 AM
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DG’d on the skill builder this past weekend. Got a perfect score.

Supposedly they're offering a Tactical HG course starting next year that doesnt require DG





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  #8774  
Old 11-28-2017, 9:32 AM
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Congratulations Protohyp on the DG! That's a beautiful photo with the 3 zeros!!

Am attending a skill builder class tomorrow. Hope to follow your example
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  #8775  
Old 11-28-2017, 9:38 AM
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Congrats Protohyp!!!
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  #8776  
Old 11-28-2017, 9:38 AM
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I’ll also be there tomorrow!

Meeting up with a few other CalGunners to try and squad together.

PM if interested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ARFrog View Post
Congratulations Protohyp on the DG! That's a beautiful photo with the 3 zeros!!

Am attending a skill builder class tomorrow. Hope to follow your example
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  #8777  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:04 AM
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Thanks guys.

I usually don’t get scolded by the lead instructor but this time I did.

I’ve always come there to shoot so when they say controlled pair. I usually shoot a controlled 10 or 15 with maybe a good follow up of 5 to the head.

The lead came up and whispered in my ear and said ‘don’t have too much fun because then everyone will want to have fun.”

By noon on the first day I had already shot 600 rounds. By noon the second day I had really fallen apart from fatigue so really had to pull it together for the test.


I also spent lunch time picking up casings...ended up with two large grocery bags of 9mm...probably 2500 cases. Should be set for a while

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Last edited by protohyp; 11-28-2017 at 10:29 AM..
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  #8778  
Old 11-28-2017, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ARFrog View Post
Congratulations Protohyp on the DG! That's a beautiful photo with the 3 zeros!!



Am attending a skill builder class tomorrow. Hope to follow your example


Good luck and report back!


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  #8779  
Old 11-28-2017, 2:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
DG’d on the skill builder this past weekend. Got a perfect score.

Supposedly they're offering a Tactical HG course starting next year that doesnt require DG





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Sweet
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  #8780  
Old 11-28-2017, 4:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
Supposedly they're offering a Tactical HG course starting next year that doesnt require DG
I thought I heard a G was required to take it. This makes sense and I think a good decision by FS, but I can't help to feel a little duped that I did a trip to FS last Spring solely to DG an HG skill builder, so I could take the next course.

Sounds like there's going to be a number of changes to the course offerings. I noticed there are no night nor open hand/edged weapon classes scheduled for 2018.
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  #8781  
Old 11-30-2017, 6:45 AM
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Default A DG still required later on

Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
I thought I heard a G was required to take it. This makes sense and I think a good decision by FS, but I can't help to feel a little duped that I did a trip to FS last Spring solely to DG an HG skill builder, so I could take the next course.
When I attended the skill builder a couple of weeks ago, they announced that when they roll out the next classes, a G would be required to take the beginning tactical course, but a DG would be required to take the advanced tactical course.
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  #8782  
Old 11-30-2017, 6:51 AM
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Default Anyone attend a Precision Rifle Fundamentals

Has anyone attended one of the new precision rifle fundamentals 1-day classes? I want to schedule one but was wondering about whether the class got out early enough that I could drive back to the L.A. area that day.

For my other classes my wife has come with me so we stay in Vegas for a day after the class. But for this one day class I'm thinking of leaving my wife in the L.A. area and just zipping out to Pahrump solo. (I'm trying to keep expenses for this to a minimum and if it was warm enough, I'd probably just sleep in my car right outside the gate!)
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  #8783  
Old 11-30-2017, 7:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramynot View Post
Has anyone attended one of the new precision rifle fundamentals 1-day classes? I want to schedule one but was wondering about whether the class got out early enough that I could drive back to the L.A. area that day.

For my other classes my wife has come with me so we stay in Vegas for a day after the class. But for this one day class I'm thinking of leaving my wife in the L.A. area and just zipping out to Pahrump solo. (I'm trying to keep expenses for this to a minimum and if it was warm enough, I'd probably just sleep in my car right outside the gate!)
My friend just took it and I believe they get out around 5- 5:30pm. It is all classroom, so you shouldn't be tired physically unlike the shooting classes.

I've done the 8 hour drive home after a regular class several times (getting too old for that though).

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Last edited by acegunnr; 11-30-2017 at 7:53 AM..
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  #8784  
Old 11-30-2017, 7:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kramynot View Post
Has anyone attended one of the new precision rifle fundamentals 1-day classes? I want to schedule one but was wondering about whether the class got out early enough that I could drive back to the L.A. area that day.

For my other classes my wife has come with me so we stay in Vegas for a day after the class. But for this one day class I'm thinking of leaving my wife in the L.A. area and just zipping out to Pahrump solo. (I'm trying to keep expenses for this to a minimum and if it was warm enough, I'd probably just sleep in my car right outside the gate!)
Just completed. Class ended at 5:00PM
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  #8785  
Old 11-30-2017, 9:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
Thanks guys.

I usually don’t get scolded by the lead instructor but this time I did.

I’ve always come there to shoot so when they say controlled pair. I usually shoot a controlled 10 or 15 with maybe a good follow up of 5 to the head.

The lead came up and whispered in my ear and said ‘don’t have too much fun because then everyone will want to have fun.”

By noon on the first day I had already shot 600 rounds. By noon the second day I had really fallen apart from fatigue so really had to pull it together for the test.


I also spent lunch time picking up casings...ended up with two large grocery bags of 9mm...probably 2500 cases. Should be set for a while

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Love it! I'm going to try that next time. BTW, I'm surprised you didn't get "scolded" for picking up brass!
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  #8786  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
I thought I heard a G was required to take it. This makes sense and I think a good decision by FS, but I can't help to feel a little duped that I did a trip to FS last Spring solely to DG an HG skill builder, so I could take the next course.

Sounds like there's going to be a number of changes to the course offerings. I noticed there are no night nor open hand/edged weapon classes scheduled for 2018.
Curious why you feel "duped". They can't be expected to keep their curriculum static. Plus, you can still take the Basic Tactical and you're GTG for the Advanced.
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  #8787  
Old 11-30-2017, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by protohyp View Post
Thanks guys.

I usually don’t get scolded by the lead instructor but this time I did.

I’ve always come there to shoot so when they say controlled pair. I usually shoot a controlled 10 or 15 with maybe a good follow up of 5 to the head.

The lead came up and whispered in my ear and said ‘don’t have too much fun because then everyone will want to have fun.”

By noon on the first day I had already shot 600 rounds. By noon the second day I had really fallen apart from fatigue so really had to pull it together for the test.


I also spent lunch time picking up casings...ended up with two large grocery bags of 9mm...probably 2500 cases. Should be set for a while

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LOL. Surprise you didn't do a mag dump when they tell you to "UNLOAD!".
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  #8788  
Old 11-30-2017, 12:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Curious why you feel "duped". They can't be expected to keep their curriculum static. Plus, you can still take the Basic Tactical and you're GTG for the Advanced.
I didn't know about the DG requirement for a different more advanced tactical HG course - that makes sense.

I've always thought the DG requirement just to take the next HG course was an unnecessarily high bar. For example, there was an older gentleman next to me who was a good shot and had all the safety/fundamentals in place, just a little on the slower side. He also couldn't do the malfunctions under time. He missed DG and I don't think a guy like that should be excluded from taking a next level course. The Skill Builder is always around to work on basic fundamentals with speed. IMO, a G in 4DHG/SB shows adequate proficiency to expand the toolbox. It sounds like FS has recognized this.
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  #8789  
Old 11-30-2017, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by nszzya View Post
Love it! I'm going to try that next time. BTW, I'm surprised you didn't get "scolded" for picking up brass!
the instructors were off doing their lunches and when the other reloaders saw me doing it they quickly followed suit
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  #8790  
Old 11-30-2017, 2:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by acegunnr View Post
LOL. Surprise you didn't do a mag dump when they tell you to "UNLOAD!".
i'll do that on the rifle course...30 rds goes pretty quick with a Geissele trigger....
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  #8791  
Old 11-30-2017, 2:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen_B View Post
I didn't know about the DG requirement for a different more advanced tactical HG course - that makes sense.

I've always thought the DG requirement just to take the next HG course was an unnecessarily high bar. For example, there was an older gentleman next to me who was a good shot and had all the safety/fundamentals in place, just a little on the slower side. He also couldn't do the malfunctions under time. He missed DG and I don't think a guy like that should be excluded from taking a next level course. The Skill Builder is always around to work on basic fundamentals with speed. IMO, a G in 4DHG/SB shows adequate proficiency to expand the toolbox. It sounds like FS has recognized this.
Could be true. there were at least 10 people that took the Skill builder class with us that have taken it more than 4 times and didn't really care that they were or weren't DG'ing. most of them live there locally although a San Diego Sheriff had taken SB 5 times and DG'd twice but didn't take any of the advanced classes.

Either way I agree that its good they're not requiring DG for the tactical class so we will see if that has a huge affect on attendance and class size
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  #8792  
Old 12-03-2017, 6:39 AM
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Just got back from another FS trip and as always had a blast.
Got to partner up with AR15fan for a few days on the Skill Builder and it was a pleasure meeting you and shooting with you. Congrats on another DG.

As for the Tactical / Advanced Tactical, yup they mentioned it on Day One and it looks like the course descriptions are up.
From the looks of it, this kind of sounds like the 'old' Advanced Tactical? (I never had a chance to take it but I've heard plenty of members here talking about it)


  • Presenting your handgun while on the move
  • Responding to threats from the rear
  • Responding to threats utilizing non-standard presentation techniques
  • Shooting from unconventional positions (lying on your back, lying on your side)
  • One handed malfunction clearances using either the firing or support hand
  • Situational decision making based on your opponent’s weapon, characteristics, and proximity
  • Advanced use of cover and concealment
  • Malfunction clearances on the move
  • Weapon presentation from within a vehicle (including egress from the vehicle)
  • Shooting around or under vehicles and other types of cover or concealment
  • Advanced low light and night techniques, such as utilizing cover while using a flashlight

Bold = things I don't remember doing in Adv Tactical when I took it about a year or so ago.
I'm especially excited to hear about shooting around / in vehicles.



thoughts?
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  #8793  
Old 12-03-2017, 7:50 AM
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Looks like things we did in the old adv tactical rifle course.
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  #8794  
Old 12-03-2017, 8:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi54 View Post
Just got back from another FS trip and as always had a blast.
Got to partner up with AR15fan for a few days on the Skill Builder and it was a pleasure meeting you and shooting with you. Congrats on another DG.

As for the Tactical / Advanced Tactical, yup they mentioned it on Day One and it looks like the course descriptions are up.
From the looks of it, this kind of sounds like the 'old' Advanced Tactical? (I never had a chance to take it but I've heard plenty of members here talking about it)


  • Presenting your handgun while on the move
  • Responding to threats from the rear
  • Responding to threats utilizing non-standard presentation techniques
  • Shooting from unconventional positions (lying on your back, lying on your side)
  • One handed malfunction clearances using either the firing or support hand
  • Situational decision making based on your opponent’s weapon, characteristics, and proximity
  • Advanced use of cover and concealment
  • Malfunction clearances on the move
  • Weapon presentation from within a vehicle (including egress from the vehicle)
  • Shooting around or under vehicles and other types of cover or concealment
  • Advanced low light and night techniques, such as utilizing cover while using a flashlight

Bold = things I don't remember doing in Adv Tactical when I took it about a year or so ago.
I'm especially excited to hear about shooting around / in vehicles.



thoughts?
Glad to see the changes and addition of an Advanced Tactical class. However, they need to separate the Tactical line of classes from the HCMP classes. It looks likes both tactical classes are required to attend HCMP.

In general, they need to make their curriculum more orthogonal so you can pursue advanced classes in one weapons system without DG'ing rifle, pistol, and shotgun.

Are the skills tests in the Tactical classes gone?
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Last edited by AAShooter; 12-03-2017 at 9:20 AM..
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  #8795  
Old 12-03-2017, 10:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post

Are the skills tests in the Tactical classes gone?
I believe they're gone.
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  #8796  
Old 12-03-2017, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AAShooter View Post

Are the skills tests in the Tactical classes gone?
I believe they're gone.
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  #8797  
Old 12-04-2017, 7:38 AM
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...For example, there was an older gentleman next to me who was a good shot and had all the safety/fundamentals in place, just a little on the slower side. He also couldn't do the malfunctions under time. ...
Not to mention some of the malfunction rules are stupid. I know I have a spare mag or not on my belt. I do not need to check it to see if it is over there prior to using it especially if my gun is empty.
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  #8798  
Old 12-04-2017, 7:46 AM
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Quote:
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Not to mention some of the malfunction rules are stupid. I know I have a spare mag or not on my belt. I do not need to check it to see if it is over there prior to using it especially if my gun is empty.


Checking for a mag is only supposed to be done with tactical reload, where if in the stress of a firefight you were mistaken and don’t have a mag (or it fell out, etc) you won’t further hurt your situation by dropping a mag from your gun with rounds in it.
You’re right, on emergency reload it wouldn’t matter, and they’re not supposed to be teaching to check for mag on belt for emergency reload. They have never taught that in any of the classes I have taken.
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  #8799  
Old 12-04-2017, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Royal_Cake View Post
Checking for a mag is only supposed to be done with tactical reload, where if in the stress of a firefight you were mistaken and don’t have a mag (or it fell out, etc) you won’t further hurt your situation by dropping a mag from your gun with rounds in it.
You’re right, on emergency reload it wouldn’t matter, and they’re not supposed to be teaching to check for mag on belt for emergency reload. They have never taught that in any of the classes I have taken.
Don't you check for the Type 3 malfunction to determine whether you have to retain the magazine or not??
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Old 12-04-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Not to mention some of the malfunction rules are stupid. I know I have a spare mag or not on my belt. I do not need to check it to see if it is over there prior to using it especially if my gun is empty.
To their credit, I was allowed to do a reload technique I’m comfortable with and I believe is superior to their taught tactical reload. They called it the butterfly technique. You grab the new mag and position it in palm behind index finger. You eject old mag into palm in front of index finger so both mags are now in your hand, insert new mag into well, and place old mag in pocket/belt. When well practiced, I believe it to be a better technique for both speed and options (you can feel the weight of mags and decide not to reload for example).

He said they used to teach that method many years ago but stopped because it was harder to learn. Because they used to teach it, I was allowed to do it for credit on skills test. No one else on the line knew of the technique and I finished reloads stupid fast compared to the standard taught technique. I can understand the challenge with teaching that technique because without decent repetition, there is the higher chance of fumbling the mag grip/insertion and dropping a mag. For more learned shooters, I think it’s worth a look into. While not a guarantee, the older instructors will probably allow it on skills test.

Last edited by Citizen_B; 12-04-2017 at 10:13 AM..
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