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  #201  
Old 03-21-2018, 10:30 AM
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I would say that to get started, sign up for and attend one of the beginner classes. Start there as they tell you what all the safety rules are and you should START there. If you take training elsewhere (for the sport, not for self defense, etc), you might accidentally disqualify yourself. But if you start there and remember the safety rules, then the rest is just learning as you go ... but safely. Then walk/jog your first match instead of trying to run.
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  #202  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Lead Waster View Post
I would say that to get started, sign up for and attend one of the beginner classes. Start there as they tell you what all the safety rules are and you should START there. If you take training elsewhere (for the sport, not for self defense, etc), you might accidentally disqualify yourself. But if you start there and remember the safety rules, then the rest is just learning as you go ... but safely. Then walk/jog your first match instead of trying to run.
Just make sure that you have enough rounds downrange through a pistol that you have innate familiarity with it. We've been seeing more people show up to our Intro to Competition class when they have only owned a gun for 2-3 months. We are thinking out instituting a requirement that you need to have shot about 1,000 rounds through your gun (or similar guns) before you are eligible to take the class. We shouldn't have to be teaching people how to deactivate/activate their safeties, or how to top off a gun/manipulate mags (or even line up their sights properly).
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  #203  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
We are thinking out instituting a requirement that you need to have shot about 1,000 rounds through your gun (or similar guns) before you are eligible to take the class. We shouldn't have to be teaching people how to deactivate/activate their safeties, or how to top off a gun/manipulate mags (or even line up their sights properly).
How would you verify or enforce that?
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  #204  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
How would you verify or enforce that?
That's the hard part. It would come to to phrasing the requirement correctly as having enough familiarity with the firearm that the basic mechanics of safe handling and shooting are not an issue (and then list a suggest round count of 1,000 rounds as a guideline).

But something needs to be done, because it is difficult enough to make a newbie familiar with drawing and moving with a gun when they do not instinctively know basic gun handling to begin with.
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  #205  
Old 03-21-2018, 12:14 PM
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But something needs to be done, because it is difficult enough to make a newbie familiar with drawing and moving with a gun when they do not instinctively know basic gun handling to begin with.
And yet a number of the self annointed "high speed low drag" competitors here on CalGuns and in this thread in particular, have roundly condemned my advice to take a couple basic tactical pistol courses that focus on weapons manipulation, familiarity and basic movement and marksmanship....their advice is just take your gun , go to a familiarization class and start shooting matches.

I am an IDPA certified RSO and have been RO'ing / officiating at IDPA / USPSA / 3-gun matches for over 25 years and I just cant condone that "casual, undisciplined approach" for new shooters / competitors and I think giving that advice out does a disservice to the sport, the would be competitor, and can be down right dangerous... but in reading the post of those offering that advice, they seem to have very high opinions of their competitive skills.

For example. the two tactical classes I often recommend, offered by Direct Action Group ( http://dag-usa.com/ ) in both Southern and Northern California have the following syllabus':

Course Objective DAG Tactical handgun level I
SAFETY
Tactical Presentations
Stationary Turns
Tactical Reloading
Kneeling Fire
Steel Shooting
Use of Cover
Combat Course of Fire
3-20 yrd Scored Evaluation

Course Objectives DAG Tactical handgun II
Concealment Presentations
Speed Loading
Stoppage Drills
Casualty Arm Fire
Casualty Arm Reloads
Movement drills
Obstacle & timed
Courses of Fire
5-25 yard Scored Evaluation

In my opinion, completion of a class or classes that cover these skills will prepare you to safety and competently begin to participate in IDPA / USPSA shooting matches. I dont think ongoing advanced tactical training beyond these skills necessarily adds to your ability to compete but the basics are the basics and its important to learn them right THE FIRST TIME if possible
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  #206  
Old 03-21-2018, 12:56 PM
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  #207  
Old 03-21-2018, 1:30 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
You took my statement out of context to make your point (which I clearly disagree with) ....
Notice what I also said in that thread.

Quote:
I disagree with the tactical/combat training to prepare you for competition. A fundamentals course will help more than the tactical/combat course offered around here where they try to fit in months worth of training in a day...
Something similar to this is what I'd advocate:
https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

It is next week at Prado, come on down .
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  #208  
Old 03-21-2018, 3:30 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Notice what I also said in that thread.



Something similar to this is what I'd advocate:
https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

It is next week at Prado, come on down .
What we have been taking about is training for "new shooters" who are unfamiliar with many of the things demanded of them in a IDPA / USPSA match. You are saying that class is for the shooter who has never drawn from a holster, no idea how to clear malfunctions and has never shot anywhere but on a static square range... probably indoors, may never have shot at an array of multiple targets much less while moving?

What is your involvement with that group? Are you attending the class? Teaching the class?
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  #209  
Old 03-21-2018, 3:34 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post

I would not have even attempted to shoot IDPA if there were no cover lines as before it was very subjective. Now I just stay behind cover lines and I am good.

One of my procedurals was tactical priority on the last match.
Behind cover lines, I was going to move left so I shot the closes to the barricade first and the last one that was furthest while leaning towards the direction I was going to move. cost me a procedural as it was not "tactical priority" even though I was supposedly behind cover!!! But, again rules of the game.
Did you shoot the last Prado IDPA match on the 17th? If so.. which squad?
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  #210  
Old 03-21-2018, 3:37 PM
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  #211  
Old 03-21-2018, 4:12 PM
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Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
What we have been taking about is training for "new shooters" who are unfamiliar with many of the things demanded of them in a IDPA / USPSA match. You are saying that class is for the shooter who has never drawn from a holster, no idea how to clear malfunctions and has never shot anywhere but on a static square range... probably indoors, may never have shot at an array of multiple targets much less while moving?

What is your involvement with that group? Are you attending the class? Teaching the class?
I have seen new shooters to GM level shooters take TPC classes. They will break out the new shooters and give them extra attention as they usually have an instructor per every 4 student or so.

My involvement is as a student. I have attended their classes in the past and each time something they have been teaching clicks. For example on their last "Competition Mastery" class I gathered a bit better understanding of movement flow and dissecting a stage. I personally look at the "Handgun Mastery" as focused practice of 1,700 to 2K rounds with someone looking over your shoulder to improve your skills and teach new skills if you have not attended their classes before. I would recommend it. I know people of M class in USPSA and IDPA that are attending it next week.
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  #212  
Old 03-21-2018, 5:42 PM
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In the not too recant past, I've posted on the Change In Attitude that I've personal been on the receiving end of with competitive shooters who take themselves a bit too seriously. Qualifying questions such as, How long have you owned a gun and have you fired a 1,000 rounds. Incredible.
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  #213  
Old 03-21-2018, 5:47 PM
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  #214  
Old 03-21-2018, 6:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
In the not too recant past, I've posted on the Change In Attitude that I've personal been on the receiving end of with competitive shooters who take themselves a bit too seriously. Qualifying questions such as, How long have you owned a gun and have you fired a 1,000 rounds. Incredible.
Is safety a "too serious" matter? Basically, one is drawing from the holster either facing up range (turn and draw) or down range. Running back and forth, and up and down range with a loaded gun and doing reloads while doing the same. All the time being cognizant of safety rules.

So, someone that is not familiar with his weapon enough to do those things can be putting himself and others at risk.

Competition is not the place to work on learning fundamental skills. Now, we do get new shooters all the time and one advice is to walk not run and take their time first few matches.
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  #215  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:39 PM
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Sure, let's talk safety....

Who clears these people to be practicing or competing on this range in the first place?

I see, I see. They were born, it's extinctive you see, to be safe on the range. And because they owned that gun for a period of time that you think is proper has something to do with USPSA range safety issues.

Where do people get such ideas?

Let's back up for second:
How many great, enthusiastic and safe USPSA competitors are on the range today but would not have passed the above...Nonsense. Pure nonsense. And we wonder why other shooters avoid the sport like the plague.
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  #216  
Old 03-21-2018, 11:49 PM
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"So, someone that is not familiar with his weapon enough to do those things can be putting himself and others at risk."

Do you think so? But he said shooting to him was instinctive. Plus he has owned a $5,000 dollar Open Gun for 16 years and has fired one thousand and one total shots in his entire life.

Okay then. See you on the range.
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  #217  
Old 03-22-2018, 2:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hambam105 View Post
...Let's back up for second:
How many great, enthusiastic and safe USPSA competitors are on the range today but would not have passed the above...Nonsense. Pure nonsense. And we wonder why other shooters avoid the sport like the plague.
Now, you are just being argumentative for the sake of it. 1,000 rounds is just a couple of range trips for practice or a fundamentals class. I guess the person mentioning the 1K round criteria just wanted the potential competitor to have at least some familiarity with handguns.

I have seen competitors that needed ROs help in loading their guns in the past. It turns a 15 second stage into a minute long stage and slows everyone down.

So, it is a balancing act. Not make the criteria too difficult for people to discourage them but make it enough so people at least have some competence.

I think Rio Salado has the best idea. Any new competitor has to go through the following 3-4 hour course and pass it in order to compete. If the criteria mentioned below is too much then yeah go ahead and "avoid the sport like a plague" and be satisfied with your own awesomeness.

http://www.rsscaz.com/divisions/practical-pistol/pssc/
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  #218  
Old 03-22-2018, 5:46 AM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Now, you are just being argumentative for the sake of it. 1,000 rounds is just a couple of range trips for practice or a fundamentals class. I guess the person mentioning the 1K round criteria just wanted the potential competitor to have at least some familiarity with handguns.

I have seen competitors that needed ROs help in loading their guns in the past. It turns a 15 second stage into a minute long stage and slows everyone down.

So, it is a balancing act. Not make the criteria too difficult for people to discourage them but make it enough so people at least have some competence.

I think Rio Salado has the best idea. Any new competitor has to go through the following 3-4 hour course and pass it in order to compete. If the criteria mentioned below is too much then yeah go ahead and "avoid the sport like a plague" and be satisfied with your own awesomeness.

http://www.rsscaz.com/divisions/practical-pistol/pssc/

For what its worth, someone can have excellent weapons manipulation skills without firing a round with a very aggressive dry fire regimen. Most people at a range are there to hear the bang and feel the recoil. Their targets 10 ft away look like shotgun patterns...1000 rounds put downrange by someone without any training is meaningless in my opinion, proving nothing more than they can load the gun repeatedly and pull the trigger in the general direction of the target. In most cases without proper stance, grip, sight alignment, sight picture, trigger control and a complete inability to safely clear malfunctions or even maintain muzzle control during manipulation or keep their finger off the trigger when the sights are off the target. None of this with movement incorporated into the Charlie Foxtrot that they already are.

So yes I will continue to advocate for the need for professional training to give people a foundation in correct technique and safety discipline before they step foot onto a dynamic shooting range in a match. I have had to DQ too many people who clearly should have never been participating in a match.. and its not only their fault but its also the fault of the people who told them all they needed to do was to "buy the basic equipment, watch a couple videos go out and just be safe"....when they didn't have the knowledge, skill set and therefore the ability to be safe in the dynamic environment of an action shooting match like IDPA / USPSA.

Some people do have more innate ability with weapons than others. Some can based on their cumulative shooting experience can step out into a range without any formal training, get a briefing on the rules, go slow and be ok. In my opinion someone on a gun forum "asking for the most basic advice" is certainly not one of those people. If someone is asking if they need training, they probably do......Accurate safe shooting is a big "simultaneous equation" that many people can not solve on their own without help and practice... throw movement and a timer and an audience into the mix makes solving that equation more difficult, not less.

Preaching to the masses that "this is easy, come on down and just do it" while friendly and welcoming, does a great disservice to the sport and the many truly untrained who take that advice to heart, setting them up for failure or potential disaster.
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  #219  
Old 03-22-2018, 7:14 AM
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Competition is not the place to work on learning fundamental skills...
Word to your mother !!!

In my CCW class there were people that couldn't hit the target three yards in front of them.
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  #220  
Old 03-22-2018, 7:39 AM
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Word to your mother !!!

In my CCW class there were people that couldn't hit the target three yards in front of them.
Not sure what the point is here vis a vis the discussion? And what does Tanks mother have to do with anything here?
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  #221  
Old 03-22-2018, 2:08 PM
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...when they didn't have the knowledge, skill set and therefore the ability to be safe in the dynamic environment of an action shooting match like IDPA...
IDPA is considered action shooting?

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  #222  
Old 03-22-2018, 2:46 PM
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IDPA is considered action shooting?

It is.....but only about half as much and half as long as USPSA. For the untrained / inexperienced...its that and much more.
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  #223  
Old 03-22-2018, 5:18 PM
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Thank you OCEquestrian for your very detailed explanations. Thank you to everyone who replied.

To add more to the story. A year ago, in honor of my Dad's passing I bought two pistols. He always wanted me to have at least one handgun and I decided it was way past time. I bought a beautiful Springfield Armory Trophy Match in .45 acp from a member of this forum and I bought a new Smith & Wesson M&P Shield in 9mm. In the past 11 months I have put about 2,000 rounds through the .45 and about 1,500 through the 9mm. I love the .45, by the way.

I've been shooting long guns for about 40+ years and am a very safety conscious person. That is the reason I posted my question in the first place as I doubted it was as easy as it looks to compete. But it does look like a lot of fun and a great challenge so I feel like that is where I am headed.

I very much appreciated the information regarding tactical pistol training and will definitely look into that. The DAG school is about an hour from me so that isn't bad. Piru is about 45 minutes away so I'll look into that as well.

In my search today I also came across Israeli Tactical in my vicinity and wonder if anyone has experience with them.

My experience with my pistols so far include a lot of indoor range time, outdoors at Oak Tree on their steel side, and one outing in Piru where they let me shoot at 50 yards on their rifle range. I did this to see how I and my pistol perform at greater distances. I was very happy with that result.

Recently I did a 30 foot 6 shot challenge as a fundraiser for the Simi Valley Police department. For this the range supervisor sent the target out 30 feet, you had to load six rounds in the magazine and the range supervisor witnessed all six shots. He then signed the target and it was turned in. I did not win but I think the result was "worthy".



At the indoor range I like to practice at 21 feet, 30 feet, and 60 feet. Below is a recent target with my .45 at 60 feet.



I'm very comfortable with both of my pistols and looking to improve my skill set and of course correct any bad habits before its too late.
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  #224  
Old 03-23-2018, 12:32 AM
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"I guess the person mentioning.."
You guess? I thought we were talking Safety, not guessing.

"..wanted the potential competitor to have at least some familiarity with handguns."
Mr. Some Familiarity doesn't live shoot on the range until Mr. Competent shows up.

"So, it is a balancing act. Not make the criteria too difficult for people"
What part does balance have when discussing safety? Well, the competitor is safe for the first half of the day and a hazard waiting to happen in the second half of the day. So does that renders his actions safe or balanced?

"and be satisfied with your own awesomeness."
My "awesomeness'' gets persons in good standing that are interested in pistol shooting for any legitimate reason on the range safely so they do not endanger themselves or others.
Excuse Me.

Last edited by hambam105; 03-23-2018 at 12:36 AM..
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  #225  
Old 03-23-2018, 6:52 AM
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"I guess the person mentioning.."
You guess? I thought we were talking Safety, not guessing.

"..wanted the potential competitor to have at least some familiarity with handguns."
Mr. Some Familiarity doesn't live shoot on the range until Mr. Competent shows up.

"So, it is a balancing act. Not make the criteria too difficult for people"
What part does balance have when discussing safety? Well, the competitor is safe for the first half of the day and a hazard waiting to happen in the second half of the day. So does that renders his actions safe or balanced?

"and be satisfied with your own awesomeness."
My "awesomeness'' gets persons in good standing that are interested in pistol shooting for any legitimate reason on the range safely so they do not endanger themselves or others.
Excuse Me.
1) The person was talking about minimum requirements to take the competition CLASS not start competing. So, yeah having familiarity to load, unload, adhere to 4 safety rules etc. is a start. I am not the one giving to class so I have to guess to his intent on his rules.
2) Mr. Familiar takes the competition class in order to become Mr. Competent.
3). Again we are talking about requirements to take a competition class not requirements to compete (see the Rio Salado link I posted as an example).
4) Define your "good standing" requirement as a prerequisite for classes you teach.
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  #226  
Old 03-23-2018, 9:18 AM
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I really think you should at least have graduated a Practical Pistol class at Front Sight or another top notch School.

When you show up at a competition, no matter what level, you should be both competent and confident in your gun handling. You should also be able to hit the target with a decent degree of frequency.

I don't feel that it is cool or otherwise to show up and expect to learn these things when others are trying to have a good time. The adrenaline rush is enough to make you go stupid, and unless you are competent with your gun handling that alone could get you or someone else hurt.

You've got to keep one thing at the forefront of your mindset at all times.

You are playing with Deadly Force, and just because you are killing paper or steel targets doesn't mean the gun won't kill meat just as well.

I have seen some people show up who barely knew how to load their guns. These are not the people I want to be around, because you never know what they are going to do with their guns. Most people who are competent and see this type of thing feel the same way. You can tell in about 15 seconds if a guy has decent gun handling. I can usually tell just by looking at how you grip the gun.

A few trips to Front Sight and you will be competent. Then you can go out and compete with anyone and not endanger anyone or yourself.

Randy
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  #227  
Old 03-23-2018, 9:34 AM
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Originally Posted by W.R.Buchanan View Post
I really think you should at least have graduated a Practical Pistol class at Front Sight or another top notch School.
...
A few trips to Front Sight and you will be competent. Then you can go out and compete with anyone and not endanger anyone or yourself.
Front Sight a top notch school?


If you are looking for schools and have 3 days free next week (T,W,Th) try this at Prado.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

Taught by USPSA GMs and past USA security contractors. The class syllabus has been put together by Ron Avery, a past US World Team shooter and a world class instructor.

At the same time they are also teaching a Carbine course, being taught by the current US National champion in PCC and people on the US Carbine World team.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca
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  #228  
Old 03-23-2018, 7:51 PM
hambam105 hambam105 is offline
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I tell you, Tanks, we have more in common than not so don't sweat it.
Especially with Post #227. As for the shooting ability of the attendees...I'd ask for my tuition payments be returned forthwith. Anyhow...

I believe that learning the Skills At Arms, especially at the being phase, is always taught on an individual basis. We need look no farther than the results obtained at the Cattle train car box method of teaching in Nevada.

I believe that personal integrity bounds shooting activities and people together across distance, time and generations.

When a person's shooting range attitude or range behavior is questionable their live fire participation doesn't start or immediately ends until the cause, not the symptom, is corrected by friends and mentors.

You asked about what I meant by the term, Good Standing, that's easy.
Is the person prohibited from buying/owning a firearm, and why do you want to learn or participate here?
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  #229  
Old 03-25-2018, 4:09 PM
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Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Front Sight a top notch school?


If you are looking for schools and have 3 days free next week (T,W,Th) try this at Prado.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

Taught by USPSA GMs and past USA security contractors. The class syllabus has been put together by Ron Avery, a past US World Team shooter and a world class instructor.

At the same time they are also teaching a Carbine course, being taught by the current US National champion in PCC and people on the US Carbine World team.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

So with all that "high speed low drag "competition training"from tactical performance center,... how did you do today in the IDPA match? Did you have fun? What did you think of it?
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Last edited by OCEquestrian; 03-25-2018 at 4:32 PM..
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  #230  
Old 03-25-2018, 6:33 PM
Saym14 Saym14 is offline
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Front sight... still insisting on the weaver stance?
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  #231  
Old 03-25-2018, 7:13 PM
ysr_racer ysr_racer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post

If you are looking for schools and have 3 days free next week (T,W,Th) try this at Prado.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

Taught by USPSA GMs and past USA security contractors. The class syllabus has been put together by Ron Avery, a past US World Team shooter and a world class instructor.
"Required Equipment:

Handgun suitable for extended use each day

1700 rounds of ammunition"

I'm not sure I could dry fire my pistol 1700 times in three days without my fingers falling off
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  #232  
Old 03-26-2018, 11:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanks View Post
Front Sight a top notch school?


If you are looking for schools and have 3 days free next week (T,W,Th) try this at Prado.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca

Taught by USPSA GMs and past USA security contractors. The class syllabus has been put together by Ron Avery, a past US World Team shooter and a world class instructor.

At the same time they are also teaching a Carbine course, being taught by the current US National champion in PCC and people on the US Carbine World team.

https://www.tacticalperformancecente...-days-prado-ca
Quote:
Originally Posted by OCEquestrian View Post
So with all that "high speed low drag "competition training"from tactical performance center,... how did you do today in the IDPA match? Did you have fun? What did you think of it?


Crickets.............. So much for all the "competition training" We can now only assume that resident competition and training expert "Tanks" must have had a few helpings of "humble pie" at that match.....
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Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ----Benjamin Franklin

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Last edited by OCEquestrian; 03-27-2018 at 5:23 PM..
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  #233  
Old 03-27-2018, 4:49 PM
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tacos3 tacos3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclopes85 View Post
In the sac area, how does one get started?

I just purchased a CZ Tac Sport a couple weeks ago. That's as far as I've gotten...

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
Not sure if anyone else has responded to your post but I will.

If you live in Sac or the surrounding areas, there are 2 places where you can shoot. El Dorado Rod and Gun club and Sac Valley. I shoot both their monthly matches every month.

El Dorado has an IDPA lite match on the 4th Saturday of the month. 5 stages in 3 bays, but they have a shoot house for house clearing stages. They follow IDPA rules but are flexible. No fault lines and are very flexible on classes of guns. You could shoot a CZ TS there no prob. 40-50 shooters. They also have a 3 gun match every few months. It's a good place to start if you've never shot an action pistol match as it's very low key.

Sac Valley has an IDPA match on the 1st Sunday of the month. the IDPA club is called Sacramento Defensive Pistol Shooters(SDPS). 8 Stages, 120 shooters. Strict IDPA rules are followed. Some of the best action pistol shooters in the area shoot here. Sac Valley also has USPSA matches monthly along with Steel challenge matches.

Sac Valley is on of the best facilities for outdoor shooting on the west coast. It has everything. I agree with the OP, get out there and compete. It will make you a better shooter.

Good luck,

Darren
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Last edited by tacos3; 03-27-2018 at 4:55 PM..
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