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  #41  
Old 07-12-2018, 6:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SoldierLife7 View Post
If you destroy a firearm and it is no longer a firearm, and then take the serial number plate and weld it to a new firearm (or block of aluminum which you then manufacture into a firearm), you have manufactured a different firearm.

You use the VW example above. If I take the same VW VIN tag, remove it and place it on a fully restored '57 chevy, does the chevy become a VW or does the Chevy become a Chevy with an illegal VIN tag?

If you are trying to use the same serial number to circumvent an existing law, it would be fascinating to see the results of the test case.
As mentioned, the solution then is to not 'destroy' it, leave enough material.

In your VW/Chevy example. Classic VWs and Chevy's are body on frame (vs unibody). If you retrofit the Chevy body on the VW frame, it's a VW. Transferring the VIN unto the original Chevy frame would be an illegal marking.
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  #42  
Old 07-12-2018, 7:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
As mentioned, the solution then is to not 'destroy' it, leave enough material.

In your VW/Chevy example. Classic VWs and Chevy's are body on frame (vs unibody). If you retrofit the Chevy body on the VW frame, it's a VW. Transferring the VIN unto the original Chevy frame would be an illegal marking.
Technically speaking, if you took, say, a 1911, and welded a block of metal to the side of it, and then machined the block into an AR lower, and then assembled pistol components onto the AR half of the firearm, you’d have a 1911 with an AR hanging off of it. As long as you stayed clear of assault weapon manufacturing laws, which would be rather tricky, then I don’t know what law that would be violating.
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  #43  
Old 07-12-2018, 7:48 AM
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What you are proposing is to remove the gun from the serial number and build another gun.

The law states that you cannot remove a serial number from a gun, so your proposal is to remove the gun from the serial number. Wouldn't that also remove the serial number from the gun?

In addition to that, if you were to remove a 1911 serial number and build an AR15 using the 1911 serial number, you would in effect be manufacturing a new gun. If ATF or DOJ traced the firearm, it would trace back as a 1911 NOT an AR.



The ATF has definitive definitions of what is considered a firearm and what is not. Once you removed the gun from the serial number, you would have destroyed the gun, and rendered the serial number inconsequential. If you were to take the serial number "plate" and manufacture a new firearm using the old serial number...you have still manufactured a new firearm...

Remember that the law states that you can not remove or alter the serial number or manufacturer markings. If you were to do what you are proposing, you would be the manufacturer of the new firearm. If you were to place the "other" manufacturer's information on a gun that you manufactured, you would be in violation of several laws (trademark, counterfeiting, etc).

There is no way that what you are proposing passes even the most basic "smell test".

Think about what the jury would think when presented with the laws and then presented with what you are proposing.

If your jury was made up of anti-government extremists, you MIGHT be able to get away with it. If the jury is made up of regular citizens, you would be sitting in Club Fed worrying about if you should sleep on your stomach or not...
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  #44  
Old 07-12-2018, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by champu View Post
Technically speaking, if you took, say, a 1911, and welded a block of metal to the side of it, and then machined the block into an AR lower, and then assembled pistol components onto the AR half of the firearm, you’d have a 1911 with an AR hanging off of it. As long as you stayed clear of assault weapon manufacturing laws, which would be rather tricky, then I don’t know what law that would be violating.
This is my thought as well.
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  #45  
Old 07-12-2018, 1:40 PM
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Originally Posted by SoldierLife7 View Post
What you are proposing is to remove the gun from the serial number and build another gun.

The law states that you cannot remove a serial number from a gun, so your proposal is to remove the gun from the serial number. Wouldn't that also remove the serial number from the gun?

In addition to that, if you were to remove a 1911 serial number and build an AR15 using the 1911 serial number, you would in effect be manufacturing a new gun. If ATF or DOJ traced the firearm, it would trace back as a 1911 NOT an AR.



The ATF has definitive definitions of what is considered a firearm and what is not. Once you removed the gun from the serial number, you would have destroyed the gun, and rendered the serial number inconsequential. If you were to take the serial number "plate" and manufacture a new firearm using the old serial number...you have still manufactured a new firearm...

Remember that the law states that you can not remove or alter the serial number or manufacturer markings. If you were to do what you are proposing, you would be the manufacturer of the new firearm. If you were to place the "other" manufacturer's information on a gun that you manufactured, you would be in violation of several laws (trademark, counterfeiting, etc).

There is no way that what you are proposing passes even the most basic "smell test".

Think about what the jury would think when presented with the laws and then presented with what you are proposing.

If your jury was made up of anti-government extremists, you MIGHT be able to get away with it. If the jury is made up of regular citizens, you would be sitting in Club Fed worrying about if you should sleep on your stomach or not...
The ATF has guidelines on how to destroy a firearm. However, I can't see where their guidelines are codified or based on statute, regulation, or case law.

As for removing material around the markings thereby removing the serial in violation of fed law/CA PC, if we're to argue that it's the same, then there must be a threshold of when an amount or location of material removed constitutes that point. That doesn't appear to be codified. I would argue that simply removing a serial number from an otherwise operable arm would be a clear violation.

Where's the law that says you cannot reconstruct/construct a destroyed firearm? And defines a destroyed firearm?

The critical elements of firearms sales/DROS is rifle/shotgun or pistol. I'd agree that converting a long gun to handgun or vice versa would not be permitted. However, people modify their guns and sometimes the frames to be things that don't resemble the original at all. Different calibers, magwell flares, removed locks/LCIs, frame serrations/stippling, aftermarket rails, holes/tapping.

I don't think there'd be any issue modifying the grip area on a typical semi- pistol to be large enough to accept a magazine and related changes to accept 357 magnum. So building a the gun into something other than the original manufacturer isn't an issue. If you modify the frame in ANY way, you've made something the manufacturer never intended, it could be something as simple as a hole and related changes to make a mag release left handed.

You mention a jury, the prosecutor would need have charges in the case. What those potential charges are is what I'm interested in.

I think removal of the markings fed/pc law can be worked around (Potential options, grind material TO markings, attach billet to an otherwise unaltered frame, don't remove enough material to be considered destroyed). I don't think there's any law that prevents constructing/reconstructing of a destroyed firearm, and there is no law to my knowledge that prevents using a frame to make something other than what the manufacturer intended a specific serial number to be (other than long gun/handgun conversions).
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  #46  
Old 07-12-2018, 4:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Fizz View Post
The ATF has guidelines on how to destroy a firearm. However, I can't see where their guidelines are codified or based on statute, regulation, or case law.

As for removing material around the markings thereby removing the serial in violation of fed law/CA PC, if we're to argue that it's the same, then there must be a threshold of when an amount or location of material removed constitutes that point. That doesn't appear to be codified. I would argue that simply removing a serial number from an otherwise operable arm would be a clear violation.

Where's the law that says you cannot reconstruct/construct a destroyed firearm? And defines a destroyed firearm?

The critical elements of firearms sales/DROS is rifle/shotgun or pistol. I'd agree that converting a long gun to handgun or vice versa would not be permitted. However, people modify their guns and sometimes the frames to be things that don't resemble the original at all. Different calibers, magwell flares, removed locks/LCIs, frame serrations/stippling, aftermarket rails, holes/tapping.

I don't think there'd be any issue modifying the grip area on a typical semi- pistol to be large enough to accept a magazine and related changes to accept 357 magnum. So building a the gun into something other than the original manufacturer isn't an issue. If you modify the frame in ANY way, you've made something the manufacturer never intended, it could be something as simple as a hole and related changes to make a mag release left handed.

You mention a jury, the prosecutor would need have charges in the case. What those potential charges are is what I'm interested in.

I think removal of the markings fed/pc law can be worked around (Potential options, grind material TO markings, attach billet to an otherwise unaltered frame, don't remove enough material to be considered destroyed). I don't think there's any law that prevents constructing/reconstructing of a destroyed firearm, and there is no law to my knowledge that prevents using a frame to make something other than what the manufacturer intended a specific serial number to be (other than long gun/handgun conversions).
The ATF is pretty clear in defining what constitutes a firearm. It also defines what constitutes destroying a firearm. What you are suggesting would by definition destroy the firearm making the serial number and markings irrelevant and NOT altering a firearm(because it would no longer be a firearm).

You would actually be destroying the firearm, and then manufacturing a new one and sticking a/the serial number on the new one. You would then (as a manufacturer) have to add YOUR information as the manufacturer and would have two sets of manufacturers information on the firearm...

I will say it again, if you grind away all the material except markings, you WILL by ATF definition DESTROY the firearm.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-pro...stroy-firearms

The serial number would have nothing to do with the destroyed firearm and everything to do with the newly manufactured gun.

If you want to see more about the laws concerning what you are suggesting, I would suggest looking at the laws that reference manufacturing firearms from 80% receivers.

I understand the concept of your argument, but I do not think you have a rational standing.
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  #47  
Old 07-12-2018, 5:04 PM
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Originally Posted by SoldierLife7 View Post
The ATF is pretty clear in defining what constitutes a firearm. It also defines what constitutes destroying a firearm. What you are suggesting would by definition destroy the firearm making the serial number and markings irrelevant and NOT altering a firearm(because it would no longer be a firearm).

You would actually be destroying the firearm, and then manufacturing a new one and sticking a/the serial number on the new one. You would then (as a manufacturer) have to add YOUR information as the manufacturer and would have two sets of manufacturers information on the firearm...

I will say it again, if you grind away all the material except markings, you WILL by ATF definition DESTROY the firearm.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/how-pro...stroy-firearms

The serial number would have nothing to do with the destroyed firearm and everything to do with the newly manufactured gun.

If you want to see more about the laws concerning what you are suggesting, I would suggest looking at the laws that reference manufacturing firearms from 80% receivers.

I understand the concept of your argument, but I do not think you have a rational standing.
ATF "Guidelines" are not law or regulation. If you'll notice, they cite NOTHING.

Unless it's codified or there's case law interpreting statute their guidelines have no bearing on whether an act is legal/illegal.
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  #48  
Old 07-12-2018, 7:55 PM
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ATF "Guidelines" are not law or regulation. If you'll notice, they cite NOTHING.

Unless it's codified or there's case law interpreting statute their guidelines have no bearing on whether an act is legal/illegal.
So let’s say you waste all this time and energy manufacturing a new firearm, and putting the old irrelevant serial number on it... What is your desired outcome?

Just throw the old firearm in the ocean(in a deep spot) and manufacture a new firearm from an 80% receiver and engrave that manufacturers information on it with the old serial number... it would save you a ton of time!



I mean... it’s not illegal... Right?
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  #49  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:28 PM
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Where's the law that says you cannot reconstruct/construct a destroyed firearm? And defines a destroyed firearm?
I think “reconstructing a destroyed firearm” is simply a nonsensical concept. If it’s destroyed then it’s not a firearm. If, after that, a firearm comes into being, then that firearm was “manufactured” not “reconstructed.”
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  #50  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Ivan275 View Post
So a stipple job on a Glock that erases the "Glock" logo on the handle is illegal? I guess you learn something every day.

Can I deface the slide where is says Glock, model and caliber?
Those actions would not be a problem.
You can not remove, deface, or conceal the serial number plate.
That would include, as the original post described, "cut out any frame parts with a serial number and weld anything to it", which is implying the possibility of cutting away everything BUT the serial number plate and attaching it to a different frame.
It's the same as removing the VIN from a vehicle and moving it to another vehicle. It's not legal.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #51  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:47 PM
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Think of it like a VW bug-based sandrail. The frame is what makes it a VW for legal purposes, you can twist the frame or hack it up and it's still a VW as long as you keep the VIN portions intact. Doesn't matter if you cut up the frame and turned it into a pickup truck, you would still register, insure and title it as a 19XX VW.
Actually, you can't.
People do it all the time, but it is not legal.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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  #52  
Old 07-13-2018, 7:28 AM
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Default It's a bad idea.

Waiting for the OP's next "But if I..." post. The question has been asked and answered. Let it die.
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  #53  
Old 07-13-2018, 7:40 AM
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Originally Posted by ccw-g30 View Post
Waiting for the OP's next "But if I..." post. The question has been asked and answered. Let it die.
You want it to die but bump the thread. Anyway, there's a mark lack of citation here. With exception to Quiet's cites and an anecdote about MGs (that I can't find to research further), most people here seem to be arguing how they feel about it VS what the statute, regulation and case law state.

I've proffered ways around the marking removal issue and yes it's been adapted as points have been made.

Though, if you're done, I'm not sure why you'd even start.
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Old 07-13-2018, 9:11 AM
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And there isn't an anti vw lobby in CA trying to take your sandrail away......
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