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  #1  
Old 07-10-2018, 12:49 AM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
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Default Interstate / Intrafamiliar Off Roster Question

I have tried to decipher the various threads on topic, but have some follow up questions if someone might indulge me.

Son is resident out of California; father California resident. Son purchases handgun that is not on California roster and wants to give it as a gift to father in California.

My understanding is that the transfer must be done through an FFL in California. Correct?

I also understand that the transfer is exempt from California roster. Correct?

I also understand that firearm still subject to 10 day wait, and 1 in 30 rule. Correct?

Question 1: can son legally enter California with the off roster handgun?

2: Can son then just give it to dad? Or must the gun be brought by son to California FFL for the transfer?

3: How about if son is not in California, and dad is visiting son out of state...can dad come back with it and do the Report of Operation of Law Transfer? (my inclination here is that, since it's interstate, the firearm must be sent or brought to the FFL by the out of state son first).

Thank you. Any other input would be appreciated.
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Old 07-10-2018, 2:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanzador49 View Post
I have tried to decipher the various threads on topic, but have some follow up questions if someone might indulge me.

Son is resident out of California; father California resident. Son purchases handgun that is not on California roster and wants to give it as a gift to father in California.

My understanding is that the transfer must be done through an FFL in California. Correct?

I also understand that the transfer is exempt from California roster. Correct?

I also understand that firearm still subject to 10 day wait, and 1 in 30 rule. Correct?

Question 1: can son legally enter California with the off roster handgun?

2: Can son then just give it to dad? Or must the gun be brought by son to California FFL for the transfer?

3: How about if son is not in California, and dad is visiting son out of state...can dad come back with it and do the Report of Operation of Law Transfer? (my inclination here is that, since it's interstate, the firearm must be sent or brought to the FFL by the out of state son first).

Thank you. Any other input would be appreciated.
1: yes

2: NO, cannot just give - federal law requires the transfer between resident of different states must use an FFL, and in the case of handguns, that FFL must be in the state of residence of the person who receives the gun.

3: NO - different part of Federal law makes it illegal to bring guns from out of state 'without benefit of FFL' if there's a transfer involved.

See the sticky - http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...d.php?t=503873
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Old 07-10-2018, 4:01 AM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
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Thank you. Read that other thread - looks like you've encountered all the possible hypotheticals...

So, son (non-California resident) can either (a) send the handgun to an FFL in California, or (b) bring it and walk in to an FFL in California, to do the transfer to father (California resident)...subject to 10 day wait and 1 in 30.
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Old 07-10-2018, 8:14 AM
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I have heard, but not confirmed, that it is exempt from the 1 in 30. Someone (not just a random person) mentioned that in another thread.

As said, it has to go through a CA FFL.
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Old 07-10-2018, 9:42 AM
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I did a 15+ gun Intrafamilar transfer and called the DOJ, they told me to use exempt handgun, and check the 1/30 exempt button because its a family transfer it does not count as a purchase.
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  #6  
Old 07-10-2018, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
I have heard, but not confirmed, that it is exempt from the 1 in 30. Someone (not just a random person) mentioned that in another thread.

As said, it has to go through a CA FFL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shootsocal_dave View Post
I did a 15+ gun Intrafamilar transfer and called the DOJ, they told me to use exempt handgun, and check the 1/30 exempt button because its a family transfer it does not count as a purchase.
I have never seen a family transfer exemption to the 1 in 30.

The PC outlines the only exemptions:
Quote:
12072 (9)(A)No person shall make an application to purchase more than one handgun within any 30-day period.

(A) shall not apply to any of the following:

(i)Any law enforcement agency.

(ii)Any agency duly authorized to perform law enforcement duties.

(iii)Any state or local correctional facility.

(iv)Any private security company licensed to do business in California.

(v)Any person who is properly identified as a full-time paid peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2, and who is authorized to, and does carry a firearm during the course and scope of his or her employment as a peace officer.

(vi)Any motion picture, television, or video production company or entertainment or theatrical company whose production by its nature involves the use of a firearm.

(vii)Any person who may, pursuant to Section 12078, claim an exemption from the waiting period set forth in subdivision (c) of this section.

(viii)Any transaction conducted through a licensed firearms dealer pursuant to Section 12082.

(ix)Any person who is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code and the regulations issued pursuant thereto and who has a current certificate of eligibility issued to him or her by the Department of Justice pursuant to Section 12071.

(x)The exchange of a handgun where the dealer purchased that firearm from the person seeking the exchange within the 30-day period immediately preceding the date of exchange or replacement.

(xi)The replacement of a handgun when the personís handgun was lost or stolen, and the person reported that firearm lost or stolen prior to the completion of the application to purchase to any local law enforcement agency of the city, county, or city and county in which he or she resides.

(xii)The return of any handgun to its owner.

(xiii)Community colleges that are certified by the Commission on Peace Officer Standards and Training to present the law enforcement academy basic course or other commission-certified law enforcement training.
VII & VIII are muddy to me, someone with better legaleze can explain but I dont see out of state family transfers listed so it looks like they need to follow the 1 in 30 rules. I went over this with DOJ a few years back and my rep could not find anything saying it was legal to skip the 1 in 30.... A customer was gifted about 8 firearms and had to do one a month.
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BONECUTTER View Post
I have never seen a family transfer exemption to the 1 in 30.

The PC outlines the only exemptions:


VII & VIII are muddy to me, someone with better legaleze can explain but I dont see out of state family transfers listed so it looks like they need to follow the 1 in 30 rules. I went over this with DOJ a few years back and my rep could not find anything saying it was legal to skip the 1 in 30.... A customer was gifted about 8 firearms and had to do one a month.
That's my reading as well.

If DOJ wants to grant an indulgence now and again, I guess that's OK, but ordinarily we complain about folks just making their own laws without the legislature.

(And, 12072 is gone, since 2012. The part you quote is now PC 27535, with more exceptions at 26950 and following)
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

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  #8  
Old 07-10-2018, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Librarian View Post
That's my reading as well.

If DOJ wants to grant an indulgence now and again, I guess that's OK, but ordinarily we complain about folks just making their own laws without the legislature.

(And, 12072 is gone, since 2012. The part you quote is now PC 27535, with more exceptions at 26950 and following)
Thanks for the updated PC...Since the re-numbing all my bookmarks are worthless.
I won't do anything outside of the PC unless my current Rep puts it in writing...cause .. you know.
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  #9  
Old 07-11-2018, 1:31 PM
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I just checked and was told that interstate intrafamilial transfers are exempt from the 1 in 30. The FSC exemption to use is X02 (although they still need a FSC) and mark the comment that it is an intrafamilial transfer. You also need to retain documentation, including a copy of the ID of who it is coming from, to confirm it is really from them.

As to the CA PC, it would take some time to see if it works that way. You would have to check to see where it talks about the intrafamilial transfer and how that relates to the DROS process.

You can choose to ignore, confirm or something else with regards to this. YMMV.
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  #10  
Old 07-12-2018, 9:17 AM
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intrastate intrafamilar transfers are "kind of new". I say that becuase I think the DOJ wrote itself in a corner and never actually made a exemption for these transfers, and realized they should have. So it seems they are making it work.
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  #11  
Old 07-12-2018, 5:55 PM
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The person who is the subject of this hypothetical (!!!) received the item and the FFL that person used (Sacramento Gun Club) said that the 1:30 rule ABSOLUTELY applies. No exceptions except the specific ones listed...just fyi. Pretty nice gun, too....! The person received a Sig p320 Compact (sans magazines, of course). The person can get it in 10 days.
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Old 07-15-2018, 9:38 AM
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Clear as mud here.i always thought intrafamiliar transfers exempted the 1/30 like kamesa said
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Old 07-15-2018, 2:04 PM
lanzador49 lanzador49 is offline
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Mud? Cement.

Here's my conclusion and understanding (from within the cement)(librarian...please offer corrections...)

1. A linear family member (grandfather - father - son... as opposed to lateral family member such as cousins, aunts, uncles...) may gift an off roster handgun to a California resident BUT IT MUST BE DONE THROUGH AN FFL.

2. Either the out of state party has the firearm sent to a California FFL, or brings it personally to the California FFL, for the transfer. The recipient in California can't just bring it in on his own; the out of state owner must be present to prove they are out of state at the FFL.

3. The out of state person can send it himself or herself, but it depends on the FFL in California as to whether they will receive a gun from a private party or whether they only accept from another FFL from out of state. Also - there is a question as to whether a non-licensed person can walk into FedEx or UPS or USPS and ship a firearm on their own.

4. There is a 10-Day waiting period.

5. The transaction is subject to the 1:30 rule (Penal Code Section 27535)

6. The Giftor must include a LETTER OF GIFT stating that they are over 21, giving it to someone over 21, they are out of state, they are the legal owner of the firearm, and that no consideration was paid by the California recipient for the gift. Some FFL's require that the letter be NOTARIZED. The letter must include a copy of BOTH SIDES of the out of state Driver's license; the letter must include identifying information for the firearm (brand, model, caliber, serial number).

I'm sure that there are other issues - i.e., if both giftor an giftee are California residents, they can simply send in the DOJ form with a $19 fee, but that is a different issue (Penal Code Section 27875, exemptions from using a dealer for private party transactions). The analysis above would apply to INTRAFAMILY and INTERSTATE transactions.

Yeah - clear as cement.
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Old 08-28-2018, 3:54 PM
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Here's my question:
If my son lives in another state but is moving back to California and wants to gift me an off roster gun, does he first have to register the firearm using the New Resident Report of Firearm Ownership then I submit the Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction form? Or, can I just take possession of the firearm and then submit the Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction form and not bother with the New Resident form?
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Old 08-28-2018, 5:05 PM
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Iíll answer your question as long as you arenít another a-hole selling off roster guns for 2x MSRP on the forums.
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Old 08-28-2018, 5:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KimE65 View Post
Here's my question:
If my son lives in another state but is moving back to California and wants to gift me an off roster gun, does he first have to register the firearm using the New Resident Report of Firearm Ownership then I submit the Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction form? Or, can I just take possession of the firearm and then submit the Intra-Familial Firearm Transaction form and not bother with the New Resident form?
I would suggest he moves here, registers guns as New Resident, then pass the one to you as intrafamilial.

PC 27560 suggests the move, then transfer should work:
Quote:
(2) Sell or transfer the firearm in accordance with the
provisions of Section 27545 or in accordance with the provisions
of an exemption from Section 27545.
is an option instead of registering. These days, even following the law as written seems to have peril.
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I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.

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Old 08-28-2018, 5:40 PM
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Thank you Librarian, thatís what I thought. How long should we wait between the registration and transfer?
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Old 08-28-2018, 5:44 PM
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@325inthe510 - I have no plans on selling this off roster gun.
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  #19  
Old 08-28-2018, 6:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lanzador49 View Post
Mud? Cement.

Here's my conclusion and understanding (from within the cement)(librarian...please offer corrections...)

1. A linear family member (grandfather - father - son... as opposed to lateral family member such as cousins, aunts, uncles...) may gift an off roster handgun to a California resident BUT IT MUST BE DONE THROUGH AN FFL.

2. Either the out of state party has the firearm sent to a California FFL, or brings it personally to the California FFL, for the transfer. The recipient in California can't just bring it in on his own; the out of state owner must be present to prove they are out of state at the FFL.

3. The out of state person can send it himself or herself, but it depends on the FFL in California as to whether they will receive a gun from a private party or whether they only accept from another FFL from out of state. Also - there is a question as to whether a non-licensed person can walk into FedEx or UPS or USPS and ship a firearm on their own.

4. There is a 10-Day waiting period.

5. The transaction is subject to the 1:30 rule (Penal Code Section 27535)

6. The Giftor must include a LETTER OF GIFT stating that they are over 21, giving it to someone over 21, they are out of state, they are the legal owner of the firearm, and that no consideration was paid by the California recipient for the gift. Some FFL's require that the letter be NOTARIZED. The letter must include a copy of BOTH SIDES of the out of state Driver's license; the letter must include identifying information for the firearm (brand, model, caliber, serial number).

I'm sure that there are other issues - i.e., if both giftor an giftee are California residents, they can simply send in the DOJ form with a $19 fee, but that is a different issue (Penal Code Section 27875, exemptions from using a dealer for private party transactions). The analysis above would apply to INTRAFAMILY and INTERSTATE transactions.

Yeah - clear as cement.
And note that the California FFL isn't limited to the $35 PPT fee, since this is not legally a PPT in the eyes of the state. They can charge whatever fee they usually charge for an Internet transfer.
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Old 09-04-2018, 10:47 AM
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Default Intrerfamilial transfer

I'm not as well versed in current law as others on this board so would like clarification to my findings if possible.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...df/cfl2016.pdf

In the pdf included, titled "California Firearms Laws Summary" written by Kamala D. Harris, it would seem and I can be totally mistaken but my understanding is that with Interfamilial transfer the only requirement necessary is the Firearm Safety Certificate. Starting on page 5 of said pdf goes over the legal transfer and or requirements necessary. On page 7 there is an illustration of what is and isn't required. Page 6 covers the off-roster issue and states that under penal code 32000 that ppts, interfamilial and pawn/consignment transfers are all exempt. On page 7 it states that pen code 27540 that the 1 in 30 day is exempt as well. Page 5 also goes over the requirement for an FFL is not necessary either during an infrequent interfamilial transfer.

So after reading through that, my conclusion is that the only requirement for the infrequent interfamilial transfer of roster/non-roster handgun is that the transferee needs to have a valid and or current Firearm Safety Cert and also to fill out the Report of Operation of Law or Interfamilial Firearm Transaction BOF 4544A form within 30 days of taking possession either through mail or electronically on their website.

I was quite surprised to find this and would like clarification if I am interpreting this wrongly.

Thanks for looking at this.

For clarification, page numbers mentioned are not actual document page numbers but pdf pages when scrolling doc if that makes sense.

Last edited by underpressure; 09-04-2018 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 09-04-2018, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by underpressure View Post
I'm not as well versed in current law as others on this board so would like clarification to my findings if possible.

https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a...df/cfl2016.pdf

In the pdf included, titled "California Firearms Laws Summary" written by Kamala D. Harris, it would seem and I can be totally mistaken but my understanding is that with Interfamilial transfer the only requirement necessary is the Firearm Safety Certificate. Starting on page 5 of said pdf goes over the legal transfer and or requirements necessary. On page 7 there is an illustration of what is and isn't required. Page 6 covers the off-roster issue and states that under penal code 32000 that ppts, interfamilial and pawn/consignment transfers are all exempt. On page 7 it states that pen code 27540 that the 1 in 30 day is exempt as well. Page 5 also goes over the requirement for an FFL is not necessary either during an infrequent interfamilial transfer.

So after reading through that, my conclusion is that the only requirement for the infrequent interfamilial transfer of roster/non-roster handgun is that the transferee needs to have a valid and or current Firearm Safety Cert and also to fill out the Report of Operation of Law or Interfamilial Firearm Transaction BOF 4544A form within 30 days of taking possession either through mail or electronically on their website.

I was quite surprised to find this and would like clarification if I am interpreting this wrongly.

Thanks for looking at this.

For clarification, page numbers mentioned are not actual document page numbers but pdf pages when scrolling doc if that makes sense.
Your reading is based entirely on the process for when both family members are California residents. The process is dramatically different when the giver lives out of state (which is the point of this thread).

In inter-state transfers, Federal law becomes applicable (must go through an FFL). Because it goes through an FFL, California views it differently, although you do retain the benefit of the roster not being applicable.
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Old 09-04-2018, 11:04 AM
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The title of this thread is interstate. Federal law requires that the transfer of a firearm between residents of two different states go through a FFL in the state of residence of the recipient.

What you read is only correct when both parties are residents of CA. Details matter.
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  #23  
Old 09-04-2018, 11:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kemasa View Post
The title of this thread is interstate. Details matter.
Ah, the old interstate/intrastate confusion.
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Old 09-04-2018, 11:33 AM
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When things appear too good to be true......

Good to know and thanks for the clarification.

Last edited by underpressure; 09-04-2018 at 1:36 PM..
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