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Concealed Carry Discussion General discussion regarding CCW/LTC in California

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  #1  
Old 09-29-2017, 1:30 AM
mclearner mclearner is offline
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Default CCW questions and advice

I am considering my CCW.

I have some questions I would like to get advice on.

I am looking for a system that will meet my needs.
My areas of concern are below:

1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?

2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult.
FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm

3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?

4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc.
Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.

5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

Thanks,

mclearner


*** Moved from California Handguns as suggested. ***
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  #2  
Old 09-29-2017, 2:48 AM
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1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?
Each person can have a different experience, depending on body type, what pistol, what holster, what car. I carry at 3:00-4:00 depending on which pistol I have with me. When at 4:00 I don't like to keep it there on drives of more than 30-40 minutes though. In that case I would take it off and put it in the center console or door pocket.
2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult. FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm.
You will need a single belt clip holster if you want to be removing and putting it back on. The dual clip is more stable, but the single allows more convenient and quick for on/off.
3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?
Yup, that one. Get the one with the combination lock and not the key lock. In addition to not having to deal with keys, this allows you to open the box in complete darkness (leaving the combination at a certain number and memorizing direction and number of clicks to open). Make sure the seller includes the security cable.
4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc. Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.
Have your Driver License and CCW Permit ready in your hands and out of your wallet before he approaches. When he asks for your license, hand him the pair and say "Here's my Driver's License and another important document I am required to show you." Always keep hands visible, interior light on at night, and windows rolled down if you have dark tinted windows.

Do not say "I have a gun" etc ... just give him the documents.
5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

I suggest Federal HST Tactical or Speer Gold Dots and call it a day. You should have no issue with these working on either of your pistols, but to be certain, test fire them in each pistol and in both the main and spare mag, each under full loads before use.
Hope that helps, good luck.
.

Last edited by caliberetta; 09-29-2017 at 2:52 AM..
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Old 09-29-2017, 4:30 AM
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Had LEO contact 2 times. Both times I handed over document's they asked for and included my CCW card. Both times the LEO said thanks they appreciate the disclosure asked where I my firearm was,handed back my card, conducted their business and sent me on my way.
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Old 09-29-2017, 4:53 AM
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What is taught during some of the COW courses I took are:

Roll down drivers side window

Turn on cars interior, cabin lights

Both hands on the steering wheel

When peace officers walks up inform him you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon

Follow his instructions

I have used that procedure and they have always appreciated it. I.e. haven't gotten a ticket yet.
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Old 09-29-2017, 4:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
I am considering my CCW.

I have some questions I would like to get advice on.

I am looking for a system that will meet my needs.
My areas of concern are below:

1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?

2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult.
FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm

3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?

4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc.
Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.

5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

Thanks,

mclearner


*** Moved from California Handguns as suggested. ***
1. For me 4:00 carry means it rubs my seat and it's nearly impossible to draw quickly.

2. Can't speak to a good 4:00 holster but be aware unless there is a new ruling I don't know about, you can't have a loaded handgun on Post Office property at all. https://www.nraila.org/articles/2015...-appeals-court

3. I'm of the opinion yes. It's about staying legal. Not keeping someone from stealing the weapon. Use a cable to slow them down and hide it so it's not in plain sight.

4. Good answers above already.

5. I carry good quality hollow points. The arguments I typically see about ball ammo are so you can shoot through objets to hit your target. You are not a cop and if you and the guy you are trying to shoot have cover. Get out of Dodge. You don't want to be in an extended gun fight. If you shoot through an object you don't want to kill an innocent.
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Old 09-29-2017, 5:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?
Each person can have a different experience, depending on body type, what pistol, what holster, what car. I carry at 3:00-4:00 depending on which pistol I have with me. When at 4:00 I don't like to keep it there on drives of more than 30-40 minutes though. In that case I would take it off and put it in the center console or door pocket.
2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult. FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm.
You will need a single belt clip holster if you want to be removing and putting it back on. The dual clip is more stable, but the single allows more convenient and quick for on/off.
3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?
Yup, that one. Get the one with the combination lock and not the key lock. In addition to not having to deal with keys, this allows you to open the box in complete darkness (leaving the combination at a certain number and memorizing direction and number of clicks to open). Make sure the seller includes the security cable.
4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc. Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.
Have your Driver License and CCW Permit ready in your hands and out of your wallet before he approaches. When he asks for your license, hand him the pair and say "Here's my Driver's License and another important document I am required to show you." Always keep hands visible, interior light on at night, and windows rolled down if you have dark tinted windows.

Do not say "I have a gun" etc ... just give him the documents.
5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

I suggest Federal HST Tactical or Speer Gold Dots and call it a day. You should have no issue with these working on either of your pistols, but to be certain, test fire them in each pistol and in both the main and spare mag, each under full loads before use.
Hope that helps, good luck.
.
yes to all this However I use Hornady Tripoint safe. it is a key safe locks on each side and top. It is cabled to seat and tucked under out of sight. Bonus is you can use it when securing your handgun in checked bag when flying
https://www.amazon.com/Hornady-Manuf.../dp/B01M66JFVK
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Old 09-29-2017, 9:17 AM
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Default CCW questions and advice

Quote:
Originally Posted by caliberetta View Post
1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?
Each person can have a different experience, depending on body type, what pistol, what holster, what car. I carry at 3:00-4:00 depending on which pistol I have with me. When at 4:00 I don't like to keep it there on drives of more than 30-40 minutes though. In that case I would take it off and put it in the center console or door pocket.
2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult. FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm.
You will need a single belt clip holster if you want to be removing and putting it back on. The dual clip is more stable, but the single allows more convenient and quick for on/off.
3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?
Yup, that one. Get the one with the combination lock and not the key lock. In addition to not having to deal with keys, this allows you to open the box in complete darkness (leaving the combination at a certain number and memorizing direction and number of clicks to open). Make sure the seller includes the security cable.
4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc. Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.
Have your Driver License and CCW Permit ready in your hands and out of your wallet before he approaches. When he asks for your license, hand him the pair and say "Here's my Driver's License and another important document I am required to show you." Always keep hands visible, interior light on at night, and windows rolled down if you have dark tinted windows.

Do not say "I have a gun" etc ... just give him the documents.
5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

I suggest Federal HST Tactical or Speer Gold Dots and call it a day. You should have no issue with these working on either of your pistols, but to be certain, test fire them in each pistol and in both the main and spare mag, each under full loads before use.
Hope that helps, good luck.
.


This is a very good response. I usually carry 3 o'clock when I'm out and about. I think that 4 o'clock requires me to reach too much to access my gun if I need to use it. Drawing from 3 o'clock is easier for me. I pull my concealment garment out of the way and draw straight up and out. It's also easier to draw if you're ever on your back. The key (for me) is not to angle my wrist when I draw. Straight is always better. For long car rides I would carry appendix until it gets uncomfortable then I would just toss it in my center console. I also carry a Glock 19 and Shield. I use the G-Code Incog holster with mag caddy and it works well for me. It's the only one I've tried and it's been good to me so far. It has two clips but you can choose which one to use (or both) and you can also cant it. There's not a lot of cant adjustments, though. My carry load is the Federal HST 124gr.
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Last edited by phdo; 09-29-2017 at 9:24 AM..
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Old 09-29-2017, 11:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LCU1670 View Post
What is taught during some of the COW courses I took are:

Roll down drivers side window

Turn on cars interior, cabin lights

Both hands on the steering wheel

When peace officers walks up inform him you have a permit to carry a concealed weapon

Follow his instructions

I have used that procedure and they have always appreciated it. I.e. haven't gotten a ticket yet.
Excellent advise! The only thing I would add is to roll down ALL windows, especially if you have any window tinting.
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Old 09-29-2017, 5:37 PM
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OP, when you take your class they will explain the interaction with police in detail.

All three models of gun you have listed are easy enough to carry, however in general I recommend carrying at the 3:30 position more than 4, with the gun canted so that the grip is at the 3:00 position. In the carry position you can access the gun in any position other than laying directly on it. Draw in most cars other than say Corvette, or Ferrari is easily doable.
Snap safes are fine, stick with key lock.

My suggestion is that you are within reasonable distance of either the Ontario Convention Center, or the Orange County Fairgrounds, come to a gun show. Bring your gun (unloaded) and try on some holsters, test fit your gun in the safes.
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Old 09-29-2017, 5:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantar2 View Post
OP, when you take your class they will explain the interaction with police in detail.

All three models of gun you have listed are easy enough to carry, however in general I recommend carrying at the 3:30 position more than 4, with the gun canted so that the grip is at the 3:00 position. In the carry position you can access the gun in any position other than laying directly on it. Draw in most cars other than say Corvette, or Ferrari is easily doable.
Snap safes are fine, stick with key lock.

My suggestion is that you are within reasonable distance of either the Ontario Convention Center, or the Orange County Fairgrounds, come to a gun show. Bring your gun (unloaded) and try on some holsters, test fit your gun in the safes.
Thanks, do you still have the shop in Lake Forest?
I can come by there sometime and check out some holsters and safes if you like.

I am leaning toward either a Outbags Calamity Hybrid or something similar.
I think my challenge will be finding an under the seat safe that will have enough room.
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Old 09-29-2017, 6:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?
Practice, practice, practice.

You may end up reconsidering 4:00. Anything behind 3:00 conceals nicely until you bend, and even a slight bend can cause your shirt to drop behind the butt.
I've watched Youtube videos of guys showing how "well" they can conceal under certain dress or with a certain holster... and they obviously haven't watched their own video because after reaching for something they end up with a tumor on their hip.

Personally, I carry with a Vedder Light Tuck at 2:00-2:30.
Appendix conceals best, but not everyone has the physical structure for that.

Quote:
2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult.
FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm
I leave the holster on and just lock up the gun.
If I were to trim the foam a bit, I could probably get the Shield in the Vedder into my box, but most likely not a Glock.
The P380 wouldn't be a problem.

Quote:
3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?
https://smile.amazon.com/GunVault-NV...words=gunvault

That's what I use. It's big enough for a 1911.
It comes with a cable that allows you to secure it around a seat leg and it locks into a slot in the side of the box. Opening the lid frees the cable if you want to take it with you.

Also, remember that you can't even go onto post office property even if the gun is locked up.
Park across the street and walk in.

Quote:
4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc.
Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.
It depends on your IA. Some IAs require you to notify, some don't.
My IA does not require, but they say it is a good idea... the officer will find out when he runs your DL number (in most counties)

Multiple ways to handle it... Keep your hands visible and calmly inform him (without using the word "gun", remember there is likely a rookie covering your 4:00 who can't hear the entire conversation), or simply hand him your permit with your license and insurance card.

You will also likely be required to notify your IA of the contact.
My IA requires notification within 10 days of a citation and within 72 hours of a criminal arrest.

Quote:
5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.
In 9mm or larger, you want JHP. In .380, there are good arguments for ball rounds, as JHP will expand, but may not penetrate far enough to damage critical organs. Smaller than .380, you'll want FMJ (not even sure if they make hollow points for .32 and .25 )

Personally, I use Federal HST 147gr JHP in my Shield.
I also trust Speed Gold Dot, and Winchester Ranger (again, 147gr JHP).

Hornady? They make some decent ammo... the FTX is a very good expanding round for .380 that retains decent penetration, but IMHO, they tend to be overhyped. There are a lot of Hornady fanbois, but you don't see police agencies using their 9mm and .40 S&W.
It can be a benefit in court when you are using ammo that has been proven by LEO.
OTOH, one particular Hornady product, "Zombie Response", could be used in court to show that you have "Zombie apocalypse" fantasies and look forward to shooting someone.
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A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 09-29-2017, 6:29 PM
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Originally Posted by baggss View Post
Excellent advise! The only thing I would add is to roll down ALL windows, especially if you have any window tinting.
Ditto.

Though on the freeway that is a problem for me, as they always approach on the passenger side, and I'm deaf in my right ear, so rolling down the front left window would render me unable to understand anything being said with traffic noise.

But yes... the officer may be standing at your front window, but he will appreciate being able to see clearly into the back seat, and he will likely have a partner watching you from the opposite corner of the car... the back window being down offers him a better view of your right hip.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 09-29-2017, 7:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
I am considering my CCW.

I have some questions I would like to get advice on.

I am looking for a system that will meet my needs.
My areas of concern are below:

1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?

Much depends on the vehicle, the seat, your body type, the gun and holster combo, etc. You will likely know pretty quick if this is going to be comfortable for you or not. Note that if your seats have a substantial bolster, it can be problematic...but again, it just kinda depends. Recognize that most people usually go through multiple holsters and carry positions before they find what works best for them. Everyone is different so it's hard to give advice here. What I like and what works for me, may not work for you. It's the reason most of us end up with a drawer full of holsters.

2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult.
FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm

You need a holster with either clips or "pull the dot" soft loops. There is an enormous number of holster makers out there. You won't lack for options. My suggestion is to stick with the well known, high quality holster makers. It's easier to sell the holster if you find out that it doesn't work for you.

3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?

Stack On works.

4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc.
Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs.

If your issuing agency requires you to inform then you must. Otherwise it's your call. However, if you inform the officer, I would hand them your info with your permit on top while you're advising him that you are a CCW holder and carrying today and, "please let me know how you would like to proceed," while keeping your hands visible.

Note that if your info isn't readily available, I would not fish around in your vehicle excessively. That makes them nervous. Sit tight. Turn engine off, keys up on the dash, turn dome light on, hands on the wheel where he can seem them, greet the officer and advise that you are a CCW holder and carrying, ask the officer how he would like you to proceed. And don't make any sudden movements.


5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

Definitely hollow points. Federal HST's in 124g or 147g perform well out of short barrels...and longer barrels. It's a great round.

Thanks,

mclearner


*** Moved from California Handguns as suggested. ***
Answers in line above.
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Old 09-29-2017, 8:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
Thanks, do you still have the shop in Lake Forest?
I can come by there sometime and check out some holsters and safes if you like.

I am leaning toward either a 1or something similar.
I think my challenge will be finding an under the seat safe that will have enough room.
Yes, we are located inside Artemis Defense Institute in Lake Forest, although I am only there by appointment. Your free to try out anything, and if you need to take a safe and fit check it under your seat there is one open for that purpose.

Remember the safe is for storage, not fast access. Feel free to call me if you have questions.

Holster will depend on the gun, your style of dress etc. As a rule we don't want you wear anything special to carry your gun. A good carry system will work with what you have. The G43 and Shield will be easier to carry than the G19, but any of them are very doable.

Part of the question would be how do you typically dress. If we solve for the hardest situation, the rest is easy.

A hybrid might be the answer for the G19, the Outbags Calamity Hybrid should be comfortable for the G19, but it would not be my choice. I do not believe you'll be happy in the long run or that its the right answer for either the Shield or the G43 unless there is some extenuating circumstance such as a painful skin condition. To my mind it's about the same as the N82 Pro without the funky draw.

At any rate, your welcome to try out a holster for any of the above at the store. There are a number of units in stock if you should want to try them on before you spend money.

If you have questions call me.
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Old 09-29-2017, 8:11 PM
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Reminder on the ball vs. hollow point. Surprisingly enough there are places San Francisco where it's illegal to carry hollow point. However it's important to remember why you want hollow point and that is to reduce the risk of over penetration. Yes they can cause more damage, and we can debate brands and gel data, but the reason law enforcement moved to hollow points was liability.

Ball will work just fine, and hollow point can over penetrate as well, but ball will all things being equal penetrate and continue a lot farther than hollow point of the same velocity.

As for brand, you need to test fire any ammo you buy. The same round that is wonderful in your Glock, may be an inch off in your Shield. Different rounds will have different impact points in different guns. You can adjust sights, if the gun allows it but its best to find what it likes.
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Old 09-30-2017, 4:33 AM
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Originally Posted by grantar2 View Post
Reminder on the ball vs. hollow point. Surprisingly enough there are places San Francisco where it's illegal to carry hollow point. However it's important to remember why you want hollow point and that is to reduce the risk of over penetration. Yes they can cause more damage, and we can debate brands and gel data, but the reason law enforcement moved to hollow points was liability.

Ball will work just fine, and hollow point can over penetrate as well, but ball will all things being equal penetrate and continue a lot farther than hollow point of the same velocity.

As for brand, you need to test fire any ammo you buy. The same round that is wonderful in your Glock, may be an inch off in your Shield. Different rounds will have different impact points in different guns. You can adjust sights, if the gun allows it but its best to find what it likes.
San Francisco only banned Black Talons to the best of my knowledge not all hollow point ammo. Now as to if the SF Leo that pulls you over knows that is a different question. OP otherwise I have told many with carry option questions to take grantar2's up on his offer of help if they are anywhere near him.
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Old 09-30-2017, 5:14 AM
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1) I would like a carry at 4 o'clock. What issues will I have when I am in the car?

The gun will dig into the backrest.

2) I would like a IWB holster that can easily be put in a car safe when I am at the courthouse or post office. The 2 point systems (like Alien) make this difficult.
FYI, I have a G19, G43 and Shield 9mm


Just lock the gun up and leave your empty holster on your belt.

3) Car safes - are the $20 Stack-on(s) good enough or what should I be looking at?

Get a Console Vault.

4) When stopped by LEC, should I declare, hand them my card quietly, etc.
Looking for feedback from people that have been pulled over and any RSDs
.

Yes.

5) Rounds - Some say ball rounds, some say Hornady - I feel this is like Mac vs PC, but let me know your thoughts. Also share which round you are using in the G43 or Shield please.

Federal HST.
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Old 09-30-2017, 8:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FresnoRob View Post
San Francisco only banned Black Talons to the best of my knowledge not all hollow point ammo. Now as to if the SF Leo that pulls you over knows that is a different question. OP otherwise I have told many with carry option questions to take grantar2's up on his offer of help if they are anywhere near him.
Black Talons are pretty easy to spot... they're basically Winchester Ranger-T with a black teflon lubricant coating.

But the SF law does not specify Black Talons, though that is what it was written to prohibit. The wording is more vague, something along the lines of "Police ammo" or something like that.

Basically, following the EXACT wording of the law, you can carry Federal HST 147gr if you bought them in a $30 box of 20 from Turners, but not if you bought them in a $35 box of 50 "LE Pack"

The whole Black Talon thing was nuts. I remember when they passed that and the media was referring to these as being made from some kind of plastic that would shatter on impact, tear through their vest, and be impossible to remove surgically.
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Old 09-30-2017, 9:17 AM
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1. Depending on your stature, the 4:00 position may allow you to quickly draw. I am able to fairly quickly draw from there while seated. With my Alien Gear 3.0 IWB holster, I can leave it holstered when driving (regardless of distance)

2. When in a no-gun zone (post office, etc), I simply lock my firearm in a combo-flat safe, cabled to the passenger car seat mount, and slide it under the seat. I keep my (empty) holster on—which I've had no problem with in a post office.
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Old 09-30-2017, 1:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FresnoRob View Post
San Francisco only banned Black Talons to the best of my knowledge not all hollow point ammo. Now as to if the SF Leo that pulls you over knows that is a different question. OP otherwise I have told many with carry option questions to take grantar2's up on his offer of help if they are anywhere near him.


SF banned the sale / purchase of hollow points in the city limits not owning or using them I believe


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Old 09-30-2017, 2:06 PM
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SF banned the sale / purchase of hollow points in the city limits not owning or using them I believe
Not all hollow points. Just Black Talons and LE-designated ammo that does not have a non-LE version available for sale to the public.

http://sanfranciscopolice.org/san-fr...ted-ammunition

http://police.sanfranciscocode.org/9/618/
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Old 09-30-2017, 4:42 PM
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Let's clarify the 4 oclock issue. If seated in your car with your seat belt on you can access the gun quickly, then your concern is wear on the bolster of your seat. (you can put on seat covers).

If you can't quickly access the gun, consider moving the gun forward. If you have ever had an item drop, tried to grab it, and had your seat belt lock up preventing you from moving you can understand the issue. Your startle response is going to likely trigger the belt to lock up. The ensuing mess isn't pretty.
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Old 09-30-2017, 4:46 PM
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Crossbreed makes one called a QuikClip. I wear it a 4:00 with a 15% cant. Drawing while in a car is nor an issue. I can even carry a full size all metal gun without issues. Quikclik is easy to remove and easy to put back on. Almost half the size of a AG or Crossbreed two clip system.
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Old 09-30-2017, 5:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Not all hollow points. Just Black Talons and LE-designated ammo that does not have a non-LE version available for sale to the public.

http://sanfranciscopolice.org/san-fr...ted-ammunition

http://police.sanfranciscocode.org/9/618/
I do not have a definitive view on this - I am more posting for others thoughts or comments.

-- The SF Code in Section 618(a) bans (1) Black Talon (or identical); and (2) manufacturer "LE designated" rounds unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition.

-- Section (d) then mandates SFPD to maintain a database of banned rounds (though failure to be included in the db is not a defense to a violation of section (a)).

-- The SFPD database only has three entries: Black Talon, Fed HST LE, and Hornady TAP LE.

So it would seem that SFPD has included Fed HST n the database as prohibited by section (a) of the code listed . . .

Yet, Federal offers what I understand to be identical rounds, labeled as "Personal Defense" or something similar (the $30 box of 20 versus the $35 box of 50 Cokebottle mentions above).

Which, it seems to me, means that the SFPD database listing (at least in terms of Fed HST LE) cannot be enforceable -- prohibited ammo in section (a) is defined as "Ammunition designated by its manufacturer for purchase by law enforcement or military agencies only, unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition." (emphasis added).

Prohibited ammo is not defined as anything added to the database by SFPD; and adding it to the database doesn't make it so.

Long story shorter, in the extremely unlikely event that one were charged with a violation of Section 618 regulating prohibited ammunition based on possession of Fed HST LE in SF, I expect that a defense of it not being prohibited ammo as defined in the statute is a winner (putting aside for a moment additional defenses such as 2A arguments, etc.)

I've always just found it interesting that the db contains only three listings, and the one I am familiar with appears to be incorrectly listed in the db because it expressly falls outside the definition of prohibited ammo.
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Old 09-30-2017, 5:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grantar2 View Post
Let's clarify the 4 oclock issue. If seated in your car with your seat belt on you can access the gun quickly, then your concern is wear on the bolster of your seat. (you can put on seat covers).

If you can't quickly access the gun, consider moving the gun forward. If you have ever had an item drop, tried to grab it, and had your seat belt lock up preventing you from moving you can understand the issue. Your startle response is going to likely trigger the belt to lock up. The ensuing mess isn't pretty.
Exactly, ban seat belts. LOL
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cokebottle View Post
Black Talons are pretty easy to spot... they're basically Winchester Ranger-T with a black teflon lubricant coating.

But the SF law does not specify Black Talons, though that is what it was written to prohibit. The wording is more vague, something along the lines of "Police ammo" or something like that.

Basically, following the EXACT wording of the law, you can carry Federal HST 147gr if you bought them in a $30 box of 20 from Turners, but not if you bought them in a $35 box of 50 "LE Pack"

The whole Black Talon thing was nuts. I remember when they passed that and the media was referring to these as being made from some kind of plastic that would shatter on impact, tear through their vest, and be impossible to remove surgically.

Read the actual city ordinance...only prohibited unless other ammunition with the same characteristics are otherwise available to the public....

http://www.sfbos.org/ftp/uploadedfil...3/o0038-13.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by SF ORDINANCE 38-13 618
[Police Code - Possession or Sale of Law Enforcement or Military Ammunition]
Ordinance amending the Police Code, by adding Section 618, to prohibit the possession or sale of certain ammunition, including Black Talon ammunition and ammunition intended exclusively for law enforcement and military purposes.
FILE NO. 130040 ORDINANCE NO.

Be it ordained by the People of the City and County of San Francisco:
Section 1. The San Francisco Police Code is hereby amended by adding Section 618, to read as follows:

SEC. 618. PROHIBITED AMMUNITION.

(a) Definition. For purposes ofthis Section, "Prohibited Ammunition" shall mean:
(I) Ammunition sold under the brand name "Winchester Black Talon," or that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to ammunition presently or formerly
sold under the brand name Winchester Black Talon
; or,
(2) Ammunition designated by its manufacturer for purchase by law enforcement or
military agencies only, unless other ammunition is available to the general public that has physical properties resulting in ballistics performance identical to such ammunition
.
{b) Possession Prohibited; Exceptions. No person, firm, corporation or other entity may possess Prohibited Ammunition within the City and County ofSan Francisco, except that this subsection shall not apply to the otherwise-lawful possession o fProhibited Ammunition by the following:
Mayor Lee, Supervisor Cohen , Breed, BOARD OF SUPERVISORS
Campos

Page 1 1/15/2013

(1) Peace officers in possession of Prohibited Ammunition issued to them by their employing agency,·
(2) Federal law enforcement officers or other federal employees in possession of Prohibited Ammunition issued to them by their employing agency;
(3) Members ofthe armed forces ofthe United States in possession ofProhibited Ammunition issued to them by the military agency to which they belong;
(4) Patrol special police officers, animal control officers or zookeepers, harbor police officers, sheriff's security officers. or police security officers in possession of Prohibited Ammunition issued to them by their employing agencies; or,
(5) Businesses licensed as firearms dealers under this Article in possession of Prohibited Ammunition for sale to law enforcement and military agencies. Agencies employing persons listed in subsection (b )(4) are considered law enforcement agencies for purposes of this Section.
(c) Sale or Transfer. No business licensed as a firearm dealer under this Article may sell, lease or otherwise transfer Prohibited Ammunition except to law enforcement and military agencies.
(d) Police Database. The San Francisco Police Department shall prepare or cause to be prepared a public database o f brands and product lines o f ammunition meeting the definition o f
"Prohibited Ammunition" in subsection (a). Failure ofthe Police Department to create or maintain such a database, or the omission from the database ofa particular brand or product line ofammunition otherwise qualifying as "Prohibited Ammunition,\ under subsection (a), shall not be a defense to or otherwise excuse a violation ofthis Section.
(e) Penalty. Violation ofany ofthe provisions ofthis Section is a misdemeanor and upon conviction the violator may be punished by a fine not to exceed $1,000.00 or by imprisonment in the county jail not to exceed six months, or by both.
Mayor Lee, Supervisor Cohen , Breed, Campos BOARD OF SUPERVISORS

Page 2

(f) Severability. Ifany provision. clause or word ofthis Section 618 or the application thereof to any person or circumstance is held invalid. such invalidity shall not affect any other provision. clause. word or application ofthis Section which can be given effect without the invalid provision. clause or word. and to this end the provisions ofthis Section are declared to be severable.
Section 2. Effective Date. This ordinance shall become effective 30 days from the date of passage.
Section 3. This section is uncodified. In enacting this Ordinance, the Board intends to amend only those words, phrases, paragraphs, subsections, sections, articles, numbers, punctuation, charts, diagrams, or any other constituent part of the Police Code that are explicitly shown in this legislation as additions, deletions, Board amendment additions, and Board amendment deletions in accordance with the "Note" that appears under the official title of the legislation.

APPROVED AS TO FORM: DENNIS J. HERRERA, City Attorney
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Old 10-04-2017, 2:17 PM
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Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

Anyone tried the kit from Alien gear that lets you configure a bunch of different ways? Is this a good thing or just go try a few different holsters?
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Old 10-04-2017, 3:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

Anyone tried the kit from Alien gear that lets you configure a bunch of different ways? Is this a good thing or just go try a few different holsters?
I bought my holster from Hidden Hybrid. It is both IWB and OWB. Comfy, and all I will need.
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Old 10-04-2017, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

Anyone tried the kit from Alien gear that lets you configure a bunch of different ways? Is this a good thing or just go try a few different holsters?
Their latest design looks like a bulky CF with a bunch of failure points.

I kinda liked the AG 3.0, but it is what it is... a cheap holster. The edges are not bound, so the neoprene backing tends to roll down causing the "alien skin" to bite a bit.

Retention is great, but the belt clips are weak... not that they will break, but they are "floppy". I replaced mine with the more solid clips from Tucker gunleather.

Honestly, it's more expensive, but if you feel that you NEED a large hybrid holster (the Shield does not), then Stealthgear is much better.
Personally, I use the Vedder Light-Tuck Kydex.
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Originally Posted by dantodd View Post
A just gov't will not be overthrown by force or violence because the people have no incentive to overthrow a just gov't. If a small minority of people attempt such an insurrection to grab power and enslave the people the RKBA of the whole is our insurance against their success.
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Old 10-12-2017, 1:03 AM
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May be I should make this a separate question, but what is requirements at Ben Clark (riverside) for Qual?

OWB holster for all weapons being qualified?
Do you need a holster at all?

Someone said retention strap is required.
None of the ones I own have that feature, do I need to get those just for the quals?

Thanks,

ML
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Old 10-12-2017, 9:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mclearner View Post
Thank you all for your help and suggestions.

Anyone tried the kit from Alien gear that lets you configure a bunch of different ways? Is this a good thing or just go try a few different holsters?
The Alien Gear IWB(I have a 2.0) is comfortable, however, I find it bulkier than it needs to be. The cant is adjustable by attaching the clips at one of three different positions (both front and back). Because the clips don't attach flat to the backing (they use a spacer) it adds extra bulk in the areas away from the firearm. I am not overly impressed with the thin (leather?) backing that the neoprene is attached to. I have had mine just over a year and the neoprene is staring to separate from the backing.

Not a big fan of the plastic clips. They are also pretty thick and bulky and with the spacers adds in the difficulty of putting the holster on and getting it off.

I will be looking at other alternatives in the next few months.
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