357 sig stopping power

[mark77418]

I was at the Gunroom in Elk Grove yesterday and the guy that worked there was showing some guys a Sig p226. He said it comes in 357 sig and they asked him if that was a good round. He said "it's an awesome round. Apparently a shot to the chest has been known to cause a brain aneurism."

now I wish I never sold my Glock 31

[tbhracing]

Sig 357- Dont see a need for this "solution looking for a problem".

[pointedstick]

Originally Posted by mark77418

I was at the Gunroom in Elk Grove yesterday and the guy that worked there was showing some guys a Sig p226. He said it comes in 357 sig and they asked him if that was a good round. He said "it's an awesome round. Apparently a shot to the chest has been known to cause a brain aneurism."

now I wish I never sold my Glock 31

Now that's what I call authoritative information!

[ChrisTKHarris]

ok.

[G60]

There is lots of debate around the hydrostatic shock theory.

[RoundEye]

I know that the Department of Homeland Security uses it in a P229 for their standard issue. However, the rounds are expensive as all hell though.

On another note, a .40 is ballistically capable of causing hydrostatic shock, so to each their own.

[Legasat]

It does no better in the ballistic gel testing than any of the other rounds. What does that mean in real life? I have no idea.

[DArBad]

Originally Posted by mark77418

I was at the Gunroom in Elk Grove yesterday and the guy that worked there was showing some guys a Sig p226. He said it comes in 357 sig and they asked him if that was a good round. He said "it's an awesome round. Apparently a shot to the chest has been known to cause a brain aneurism."

now I wish I never sold my Glock 31

He must be on drugs or something???? How can a shot to the chest cause brain aneurysm?

Me thinks he is exaggerating. Just like watching guys flying backward several feet after being hit by .45acps (as in the movie " The Last Man Standing ").

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by DArBad

He must be on drugs or something???? How can a shot to the chest cause brain aneurysm?

Me thinks he is exaggerating. Just like watching guys flying backward several feet after being hit by .45acps (as in the movie " The Last Man Standing ").

Read about the Hydrostatic Shock Theory.

It basically says that the impact of a projectile into fluid filled tissue can cause enough of a change in blood pressure to cause a brain bleed from a single bullet wound to the chest.

[billped]

I say we test the theory - volunteers?


Bill

If its good enough for Feds, I say its stopping power is excellent.

I think its a hard to find round, and may be a little pricey when you do find it.

Don't know about the brain damage if shot in the chest, but anything is possible.

I have realized that any well placed caliber is enough to stop anyone. Put 3 rounds of 9mm speer red dots in anyone and they will stop.

[DArBad]

Originally Posted by ZeroG

Read about the Hydrostatic Shock Theory.

It basically says that the impact of a projectile into fluid filled tissue can cause enough of a change in blood pressure to cause a brain bleed from a single bullet wound to the chest.

Thanks for posting that ZeroG. That was very educational, I do like it when people post scientific documentations, statistic, and studies such as what you did.

But based on your posting, that is true not only of the .357 sig but ALL the ammos. The guy at Elk Grove seems to claim that it is only true for the .357 sig? That is why my sarcasm in the earlier post

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by THE NEW GUY

I have realized that any well placed caliber is enough to stop anyone. Put 3 rounds of 9mm speer red dots in anyone and they will stop.

I guess the key words being well placed. However, their are a handful of FBI agents that were involved in a shootout in 1986 that might disagree.

Yes, well placed. That means buying 9mm ammo compared to 357sig will get you more time in the range. Unless you just got it like that and money is no object.

I always wanted the Sig 229 in 357 sig because my instructors carry that weapon. But when I saw the price of ammo, its not comparable to the unlimited rounds they get.

I saw somewhere people saying 357 sig was hard to shoot. Never shot them so I dont know first hand.

As far as the FBI shoot out, well thats comparing Chevy V8s and turbo honda motors.
Same with the hollywood shoot out. Every situation is different. If there was one perfect caliber for every type of shooting, we would only buy that 1 gun.

Thats why people have target, HD, hunting, competition, duty, and CCW choices.

[G60]

Hydrostatic shock theory is just that, a theory. It should have no factor into your decision of caliber. Adequate penetration and expansion are still the most important factors.

[ianS]

Take anything someone works at a gunstore with a heavy heavy dosage of salt. Esp. if they're trying to sell something

I guess the key words being well placed. However, their are a handful of FBI agents that were involved in a shootout in 1986 that might disagree.

The 9mm performed as expected for handgun loads of that time. That shootout didn't change the thinking at the FBI otherwise why did they adopt the SIG Sauer P226/ P228 9mm throughout much of the 90's? The only real proven benefit of .40 S&W and .357 SIG over 9mm is on avg. improved intermediate barrier penetration (car doors/windows). Organizations like the CHP and US Secret Service tend to adopt the .40 and .357 respectively since their chances of being forced to shoot through car windows is much higher. Not to say a good heavy 9mm isn't capalble of good intermediate barrier penetration. According to the latest ballistic studies and OIS (officer involved shootings) a poorly placed shot or a well placed shot with a good hollowpoint 9mm, .40, .357 SIG, and .45 have comparable performance. The LAPD and LASD continue to issue 9mm pistols (with the latest hollowpoints) and these LEO's arguably get into more shootouts than most other LEO's including the Feds.

Another factor that is seldom discussed is that most shooters on avg. tend to shoot better with 9mm esp under stress than "larger" harder to shoot calibers like .357. For instance shooting one handed or trying to make multiple COM hits at a distance. Can a slight increase in velocity or a slight increase in millimeters of a handgun round make up for poorer shot placement?

[Dr Pete]

IF I have a couple holes in my chest the last thing I will be worrying about is my brain. And I think the holes in my back just might be of concern also?

Good information thou, had never heard of hydrostatic shock before.

[Rudolf the Red]

I like the round. The ballistics are legit. In fact, I may just pick up a G33 because of it.

I'll reload it so the availability/cost does not bother me. I already shoot 9mm so the bullets are already in house. Powder too. If it uses small pistol primers, all I need is brass. I better look that up.........Yup, small pistol.

The .357SIG looks like an outstanding round for current reloaders of 9mm. All you need is brass.

[ianS]

Originally Posted by THE NEW GUY

As far as the FBI shoot out, well thats comparing Chevy V8s and turbo honda motors.
Same with the hollywood shoot out. Every situation is different. If there was one perfect caliber for every type of shooting, we would only buy that 1 gun.

It would be a rifle in .223/5.56 minimum. Handguns nor their pump shotguns weren't "appropriate" or "enough gun" for either. Even a lever action in 30-30 would have been preferable to their handguns or their pump shotguns in N. Hollywood. They couldn't reach out and touch them with either. LAPD officers were supposedly scrambling for .45 ACP approved handguns after the incident. How would a .45 handgun have changed the outcome of N. Hollywod when they needed to make effective headshots beyond 25 yards or defeat body armor? It sounded more like a false premise so a few officers could get the caliber they preferred.

[Ltfive]

125grn .357 mag has well documented success as a man stopper. The .357Sig was intended to replicate that round in a auto. It comes damn close.

[ianS]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=22265&page=3

I am grateful that the 357 Sig issuing agencies are satisfied with their weapon system performance. By the same token, every single agency that I am aware of that has acquired reliable pistols, diligently emphasizes frequent realistic lethal force training and tactics, and uses good quality service pistol ammunition in 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP are also very happy with their shooting results. Good Training and Proper Psychological Preparedness coupled with Reliable Weapon Systems and followed by Frequent Practice is what will win the battles.

Is the 357 Sig bad? NO! It is a very reliably performing 9mm bullet, but it is does not offer significantly better terminal performance compared with the best current 9mm ammunition. When firing through heavy clothing, automotive steel panels, automobile windshield glass, interior wall segments, exterior wall segments, and plywood, both the 357 Sig Speer 125 gr JHP Gold Dot and 9mm Speer 124 gr +P JHP Gold Dot exhibited nearly identical penetration and expansion results THROUGH ALL THE DIFFERENT BARRIERS, as demonstrated by both our testing and that of the FBI. Most 357 Sig loadings, unless the fail to expand, do not offer excessive penetration; in fact, the exact opposite, under-penetration, can be a problem. Several .40 S&W and .45 ACP loads offered superior terminal performance through barriers compared to the 9mm and 357 Sig loads. In addition to having tested virtually all the handgun ammo available in lab settings, we have also had the opportunity to analyze numerous OIS incident forensic results and have not observed any greater incapacitation in actual shootings with users of 357 Sig loads compared to those users of 9 mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP who are using equivalent modern, well engineered ammunition.

The 357 Sig is not a bad cartridge, it just does not seem to offer anything that is not already available, at the price of less ammunition capacity than the similarly performing 9mm, as well as having greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon compared to other service pistol cartridges. On the other hand, since the 357 Sig is a modern cartridge benefiting from the latest engineering concepts, the bullets loaded with it have generally all been designed and tested using the latest FBI, IWBA, etc... testing protocols. This results in more robust terminal performance, less failures to expand, and thus greater tissue damage than will be found with older projectile designs. In addition, since according to data from Fackler and others, approximately 50% of shooting victims are incapacitated by psychological mechanisms, it is possible that the increased blast, flash, and noise of the 357 Sig enhances psychological perceptions of being shot.

In discussing this issue with an experienced ammunition engineer at one of the major ammo companies, he stated that he didn't particularly like the 357 Sig from an engineering perspective and described their difficulties in designing and producing 357 Sig ammunition which consistently performs as well as their ammunition in other service calibers. In particular, he felt his company's 357 Sig loads offered no better performance than their top 9 mm loads and stated their .40 S&W loads were superior in every respect to their 357 Sig ammunition. He firmly believes their .40 S&W offerings are the best performing duty ammunition his company produces.

We have found .40 S&W 180 gr to perform very well against barriers--better than the 9 mm and 357 Sig. The CHP used a variety of .357 Mag loads, depending upon what was available via the state contract. According to the published CHP test data, the .357 Magnum load used immediately prior to the CHP transition to .40 S&W was the Remington 125 gr JHP with an ave. MV of 1450 f/s from their duty revolvers--CHP has continued to report greater success with their .40 S&W 180 gr JHP than with the .357 Magnum 125 gr JHP they previously issued.

For many agencies, adoption of a new weapon system frequently necessitates more intensive training and instruction than might typically occur, thus officer's shooting skills might be at a higher peak than normal and qualification scores and hopefully officer involved shooting hits might increase. Having confidence in your handgun is a GREAT reason to choose a particular caliber and weapon system; if a 357 Sig works for you, go for it. Neither myself nor any of my colleagues choose to carry 357 Sig--quite a few of us carry 9 mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. However, if I was at an agency that gave me unlimited 357 Sig ammo, then I would happily carry it! The bottom line is that all of the common service pistol calibers have loads that work--pick something that is reliable and works well for you, then practice......................a lot.

[BigDogatPlay]

Originally Posted by THE NEW GUY

As far as the FBI shoot out, well thats comparing Chevy V8s and turbo honda motors.

How so? It's not like the agents armed with 9mm in that scenario were shooting hardball.

The first round that hit suspect Platt was a 9mm HP which went through his upper arm, then entered his chest from the side collapsing one lung and lodging within an inch of the heart. The bullet caused major circulatory system damage and that wound, from what was arguably a well placed shot, would almost certainly have been fatal. But Platt kept fighting and was shot superficially at least four more times while taking three agents out of action, two permanently.

The first hits on suspect Mattix were from a 2.5 inch Model 66 firing the then standard .38 +P+ "Treasury Round". Struck superficially in the head and neck and temporarily stunned unconcious Mattix was never really in the fight after that.

It took buckshot rounds from an 870 and finally six rounds from a revolver at very close range shooting .38 +P+ to end it.

So while I agree that shot placement is key the real lesson of Miami is that, regardless of how well those shots are placed or how powerful the round is, suspects can and will keep fighting. There is no such thing as a one shot stop in a gunfight.

[ianS]

Originally Posted by BigDogatPlay

So while I agree that shot placement is key the real lesson of Miami is that, regardless of how well those shots are placed or how powerful the round is, suspects can and will keep fighting. There is no such thing as a one shot stop in a gunfight.

Yes, there is that too. People who want to keep fighting tend to be harder to stop.

I still think the outcome or odds for the agents would have been "better" if they had AR's or a Mini-14 like Platt did.

[BigDogatPlay]

Absolutely better..... but it took more guys getting hurt for that part of the lesson to sink in.

[m98]

If one absolutely wants to buy into the sig's craptacular amazing better than all new and improve caliber. Then just go for it. Buy the sig chambered in the 357weak and buy lots and lots of ammo for it. Just leave the 9-40-45 to the rest of us loosers. You're not a looser are you? You don't have to be if own a 357sigweak.

Originally Posted by m98

If one absolutely wants to buy into the sig's craptacular amazing better than all new and improve caliber. Then just go for it. Buy the sig chambered in the 357weak and buy lots and lots of ammo for it. Just leave the 9-40-45 to the rest of us loosers. You're not a looser are you? You don't have to be if own a 357sigweak.

I lose! Put me down for .45 ammo please.

[RollingCode3]

Originally Posted by THE NEW GUY

If its good enough for Feds, I say its stopping power is excellent.

I think its a hard to find round, and may be a little pricey when you do find it.

Don't know about the brain damage if shot in the chest, but anything is possible.

I have realized that any well placed caliber is enough to stop anyone. Put 3 rounds of 9mm speer red dots in anyone and they will stop.

What the heck is SPEER red dots?

[bussda]

Another morgue monster versus jello junkie thread.

[RoundEye]

Originally Posted by m98

If one absolutely wants to buy into the sig's craptacular amazing better than all new and improve caliber. Then just go for it. Buy the sig chambered in the 357weak and buy lots and lots of ammo for it. Just leave the 9-40-45 to the rest of us loosers. You're not a looser are you? You don't have to be if own a 357sigweak.

It's a shame that we can't give Rep points here. Cause this deff deserves positive rep. Funniest thing, I've read all day!

[97F1504RAD]

Originally Posted by ZeroG

I know that the Department of Homeland Security uses it in a P229 for their standard issue. However, the rounds are expensive as all hell though.

On another note, a .40 is ballistically capable of causing hydrostatic shock, so to each their own.

Price wise the .357Sig is very close in price to 45ACP ammo

Originally Posted by RollingCode3

What the heck is SPEER red dots?

After well placed hits, they will turn red.

Sorry, just my own slang.

[PEZHEAD265]

From the chart posted higher up in this thread the 40 135 gr double tap had the higher peaks better then the 357 sig or the 9mm in that order.The 40 produced higher shock waves.

[zfields]

Originally Posted by ianS

It would be a rifle in .223/5.56 minimum. Handguns nor their pump shotguns weren't "appropriate" or "enough gun" for either. Even a lever action in 30-30 would have been preferable to their handguns or their pump shotguns in N. Hollywood. They couldn't reach out and touch them with either. LAPD officers were supposedly scrambling for .45 ACP approved handguns after the incident. How would a .45 handgun have changed the outcome of N. Hollywod when they needed to make effective headshots beyond 25 yards or defeat body armor? It sounded more like a false premise so a few officers could get the caliber they preferred.

Did you miss the memo?

[locosway]

The .357sig has the same "stopping power" as a 9mm, .40, or .45, or even a 10mm on a non-armored human.

The .357sig, much like the 10mm, starts to shine when you introduce barriers into the shoot. Both of those rounds have superior barrier penetration, and retain enough energy to reliable penetrate light barriers and still inflict a reliable wound on the target.

The .357sig duplicated .357 Magnum performance, so to say it's just a hype round, or a solution looking for a problem is naive at best. If you understand why it was developed and what it excels at you'll understand it's not hype.

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by locosway

The .357sig duplicated .357 Magnum performance, so to say it's just a hype round, or a solution looking for a problem is naive at best.

Isn't the 357 Magnum itself a 'hype' round?

-- Michael

[SixPointEight]

[E. Fudd]

The .357 SIG does not exactly duplicate the .357 Mag ballistics. Fairly close, but not the same. The .357 SIG in 125 gr. averages about 50 fps slower, with about 40 less ft./lb. energy. The bullet itself is not .357, but .355 (9mm). Some say it's more like a 9mm +p++... : )

The 9mm used in the Miami-Dade shootout by the FBI was Win. Silvertip 115 gr. and did not penetrate enough. Another 1.5-2" and the bullet would have hit the heart of the BG. Thus to move towards deeper penetrating loads afterwards (e.g. 147 gr. 9mm, 10mm, .40S&W, etc.)

[Fishslayer]

Originally Posted by DArBad

He must be on drugs or something???? How can a shot to the chest cause brain aneurysm?

The same way racking a shotgun makes bad guys poop their pants...

You're kidding, right?

[elSquid]

Originally Posted by Fishslayer

You're kidding, right?

Nope.

-- Michael

[locosway]

Originally Posted by elSquid

Isn't the 357 Magnum itself a 'hype' round?

-- Michael

No, it's not hype. The .357 Magnum is a proven round in the LE community. Also, people have been using things such as chronographs and the such to document the performance of rounds, and when they're done they write down their numbers.

Why do you think that is hype?