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  #1  
Old 11-08-2017, 9:38 AM
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Default Catholics are Christians

This topic got started in the Sola Scriptura thread so I felt it needed to have it's own thread.

It was stated that Catholics are not Christians.
I disagreed and stated that:
"Those that believe in Jesus and try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings are Christians. That about as simple as it gets."

It was also stated that Catholics would not be going to heaven.


Your thoughts/input?
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2017, 9:50 AM
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That would be news to historians:

The Apostolic Fathers were a group of early Christian writers who knew one of the Apostles and lived about 75-150 AD, and sought to define, organize, and defend the faith, such as Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Rome, Polycarp of Smyrna, and the author(s) of the Didache. St. Ignatius of Antioch was designated Bishop of Syria by St. Peter on his trip to Antioch to meet St. Paul. St. Ignatius was the first to use the term Catholic Church in his Letter to the Smyrnaeans.

The word catholic means universal and refers to the universal Church of Jesus Christ.

http://www.jesuschristsavior.net/History.html
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:12 AM
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The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is not "Christian" as defined in the Bible -clearly seen in their doctrine and teaching. The Catholic church simply does NOT have Christian doctrine.

And, at the Council of Trent, the RCC clearly pronounced Biblical Christians as "anathema" - we're going to hell!

https://carm.org/council-trent-canons-justification

In addition, the RCC puts the church as greater authority than the Bible. They say that they created the Bible! So, you have to listen to the church over the Bible.

I could go on and on. But, the bottom line is that the RCC is not a Christian denomination. They are not "Christian." So, if God saves someone who is currently in the RCC, they will move OUT of the RCC to a Christian church per Phil. 1:6. You cannot be sanctified in a non-Christian church.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:13 AM
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I was born and raised RCC. But, more than that (as most Catholics don't know their doctrine), I studied RCC doctrine and KNOW the church well.

No, the Last Supper is not honored and celebrated by the Mass. RCC "mass" is known as the "bloody mass" because it puts Jesus back on the cross! Jesus' words were to do this in "memory of Me," not REDO what only needed to be done ONCE. Have you ever studied Hebrews 10? Do you know why Christianity has NO person on the cross? Why Christianity REMEMBERS and NOT RE-SACRIFICES Christ at communion?

Heb10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Do you know how many times people "believed" in Jesus and he KNEW that they didn't believe rightly and understood that they were false believers? (e.g. John 2:23-25). Do you know what wrong belief in Jesus will be seen as by Jesus Christ, Himself?

Mt7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Again, the Roman Catholic Church, BY ITS OWN DOCTRINE, is not Christian. IOW, they do NOT believe what the Bible teaches regarding belief in Jesus Christ that will get one into heaven. They know it. They want you following the "church" and NOT Christ.

Please, please, please, STUDY the doctrine of the RCC AND STUDY the doctrine of salvation in the Bible. They are different. One will get you into heaven, the other (RCC) will not.

In Christ,
Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rizzo View Post
This topic got started in the Sola Scriptura thread so I felt it needed to have it's own thread.

It was stated that Catholics are not Christians.
I disagreed and stated that:
"Those that believe in Jesus and try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings are Christians. That about as simple as it gets."

It was also stated that Catholics would not be going to heaven.


Your thoughts/input?
There's really nothing to discuss here without doctrine. Your opinion, unfortunately, doesn't count for anything. How many seminary classes have you taken in RCC doctrine and biblical doctrine to know the differences?

I showed to you BIBLICALLY, that "believe in Jesus" is not a definition of salvation. "try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings" won't get you to heaven either (works-based righteousness). You're right, it's a simple definition, but it's not a Christian definition.

It's better that every Catholic KNOW that if they believe that they will get to heaven based on the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are deceived and Christ, will tell them, "Depart from me, I never knew you." (Matt. 7:21-23).

Sorry, didn't mean to ruin anyone's day with basic Biblical theology. There are SO many books and scholarly works written on this for anyone interested in studying.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:42 AM
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It's better that every Catholic KNOW that if they believe that they will get to heaven based on the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, then they are deceived and Christ, will tell them, "Depart from me, I never knew you." (Matt. 7:21-23).
Ironically, the Catholic Church makes no judgment about the salvation of those in non-Catholic Churches, for such judgment belongs to God alone.

Judge not, Pastor Bill.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:44 AM
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Ironically, the Catholic Church makes no judgment about the salvation of those in non-Catholic Churches, for such judgment belongs to God alone.

Judge not, Pastor Bill.
Really? Did you miss the Council of Trent? Hmmm...

What does "anathema" mean to you?

The RCC has decreed ALL Protestants are anathema and going to hell. Is that not judgment?

Pastor Bill.
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Really? Did you miss the Council of Trent? Hmmm...

What does "anathema" mean to you?

The RCC has decreed ALL Protestants are anathema and going to hell. Is that not judgment?

Pastor Bill.
Wow, thats recent. 1545.

Got anything more recent?
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Old 11-08-2017, 11:51 AM
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I tend to follow Christ by the church.
Not by a bunch of carpet baggers. No matter what obscenity they babble out the side of their collective necks.
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Old 11-08-2017, 1:48 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
I was born and raised RCC. But, more than that (as most Catholics don't know their doctrine), I studied RCC doctrine and KNOW the church well.

No, the Last Supper is not honored and celebrated by the Mass. RCC "mass" is known as the "bloody mass" because it puts Jesus back on the cross! Jesus' words were to do this in "memory of Me," not REDO what only needed to be done ONCE. Have you ever studied Hebrews 10? Do you know why Christianity has NO person on the cross? Why Christianity REMEMBERS and NOT RE-SACRIFICES Christ at communion?

Heb10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD,

Do you know how many times people "believed" in Jesus and he KNEW that they didn't believe rightly and understood that they were false believers? (e.g. John 2:23-25). Do you know what wrong belief in Jesus will be seen as by Jesus Christ, Himself?

Mt7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 “Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

Again, the Roman Catholic Church, BY ITS OWN DOCTRINE, is not Christian. IOW, they do NOT believe what the Bible teaches regarding belief in Jesus Christ that will get one into heaven. They know it. They want you following the "church" and NOT Christ.

Please, please, please, STUDY the doctrine of the RCC AND STUDY the doctrine of salvation in the Bible. They are different. One will get you into heaven, the other (RCC) will not.

In Christ,
Pastor Bill
I think it's safe to say any blanket statement of who is and who isn't saved is going to fail on some level. I would agree with Pastor Bill that the RCC is not a "Christian" organization. But as he points out most people who attend the RCC don't even know the Catholic doctrine.

If someone has repented and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior they are saved. Not someone who just prayed some prayer. Someone who made Jesus Lord of their life.

I expect some people who attend the RCC are saved having been led to salvation through The Spirit. Just as I expect many who attend a Protestant church are headed to Hell.
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Old 11-08-2017, 1:53 PM
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I think it's safe to say any blanket statement of who is and who isn't saved is going to fail on some level. I would agree with Pastor Bill that the RCC is not a "Christian" organization. But as he points out most people who attend the RCC don't even know the Catholic doctrine.

If someone has repented and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior they are saved. Not someone who just prayed some prayer. Someone who made Jesus Lord of their life.

I expect some people who attend the RCC are saved having been led to salvation through The Spirit. Just as I expect many who attend a Protestant church are headed to Hell.
I suspect the same.

If two religions teach mutually exclusive damnation, and both are right, then good people who believe in God and His sacrifices, and lead good lives, are damned because they, or their parents or grandparents, picked the wrong church.

Doesn't seem correct to me. How is one to know which religion is correct? Both say they are the only patch to heaven, and they can't both be right.

Seems arbitrary.
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:09 PM
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Bill,

Your hate is outdated. So is your theology.
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:18 PM
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I think it's safe to say any blanket statement of who is and who isn't saved is going to fail on some level. I would agree with Pastor Bill that the RCC is not a "Christian" organization. But as he points out most people who attend the RCC don't even know the Catholic doctrine.

If someone has repented and made Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior they are saved. Not someone who just prayed some prayer. Someone who made Jesus Lord of their life.

I expect some people who attend the RCC are saved having been led to salvation through The Spirit. Just as I expect many who attend a Protestant church are headed to Hell.

I believe this to be true. God will judge your heart, not your ability to recite theological history and trace the ancestry of your denomination.
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:21 PM
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So what about members of the RCC before the Protestant Reformation? Were they all in the wrong religion and therefore all went to hell? Probably most of the corrupt leadership. But how can you fault the poor and illiterate who could not read the bible for themselves and could only learn what the leadership told them was true. If they truly believed that Jesus was their savior and did a bunch of extra nonsense the RCC told them to, I do not think it is their fault.
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:22 PM
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God only knows...
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:36 PM
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Being raised Catholic and having Catholicism drilled into me in Catholic school but not a theologian, I can tell you the RCC is a Church of Rules as opposed to a Church of Faith.

I did not understand the difference until I read the Bible.

The Whole Bible not just what they read at Mass on Sunday and what they made us read in Catholic School.

There are whole sections of the Bible left out of RCC teaching.

Once I read the Bible myself I could no longer call myself a Catholic. I wrestled with this for years and visited many a church trying to understand why.

Personally I refer to myself as a bible based christian but only recently discovered I might actually be almost a Protestant.
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:45 PM
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Being raised Catholic and having Catholicism drilled into me in Catholic school but not a theologian, I can tell you the RCC is a Church of Rules as opposed to a Church of Faith.

I did not understand the difference until I read the Bible.

The Whole Bible not just what they read at Mass on Sunday and what they made us read in Catholic School.

There are whole sections of the Bible left out of RCC teaching.

Once I read the Bible myself I could no longer call myself a Catholic. I wrestled with this for years and visited many a church trying to understand why.

Personally I refer to myself as a bible based christian but only recently discovered I might actually be almost a Protestant.
Sounds like you had a Luther Tower Moment.
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Old 11-08-2017, 2:59 PM
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Bill,

Your hate is outdated. So is your theology.
Please respond to the doctrine, the theology. These comments only tell us about what's not good inside you. They don't say anything about me.

Just the facts.
Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:01 PM
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Please respond to the doctrine, the theology. These comments only tell us about what's not good inside you. They don't say anything about me.

Just the facts.
Pastor Bill
The facts are, the issue you raised, the Council of Trent, was doctrine five hundred years ago.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:04 PM
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So what about members of the RCC before the Protestant Reformation? Were they all in the wrong religion and therefore all went to hell? Probably most of the corrupt leadership. But how can you fault the poor and illiterate who could not read the bible for themselves and could only learn what the leadership told them was true. If they truly believed that Jesus was their savior and did a bunch of extra nonsense the RCC told them to, I do not think it is their fault.
Anyone, at any time, who did not believe in Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone, did not go to heaven. No labels needed.

You have to look at this from God's point-of-view. He has always made sure that His way of salvation is known to mankind. And, anyone He draws (John 6:44) is going to be shown how to have faith by grace in Christ.

There was no RCC until sometime after 313ish when Constantine made it the "official" church of the Roman empire. The institution of "pope" wasn't codified until like 1857. No, pope's don't go back to Peter. Peter didn't push his Apostle status late in life (e.g. 1 Peter 5 - "fellow elder" and others). Apostles were replaced by elders in churches by then. The "papacy" is so full of corruption, it's easy to see it's not of Christ and His church. Ask a Catholic how to explain when they had THREE popes in 1070! Sorry, just the facts.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:07 PM
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Wow, thats recent. 1545.

Got anything more recent?
Don't need anything more recent. It's still the official doctrine of the RCC and they believe it, support it. Do you have anything contrary?

Pastor Bill.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:07 PM
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Please respond to the doctrine, the theology. These comments only tell us about what's not good inside you. They don't say anything about me.

Just the facts.
Pastor Bill
You'll have to provide some doctrine or theology for me to respond to. All you've done so far is spew ignorant outdated hate.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:08 PM
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Anyone, at any time, who did not believe in Christ alone, by faith alone, by grace alone, did not go to heaven. No labels needed.

You have to look at this from God's point-of-view. He has always made sure that His way of salvation is known to mankind. And, anyone He draws (John 6:44) is going to be shown how to have faith by grace in Christ.

There was no RCC until sometime after 313ish when Constantine made it the "official" church of the Roman empire. The institution of "pope" wasn't codified until like 1857. No, pope's don't go back to Peter. Peter didn't push his Apostle status late in life (e.g. 1 Peter 5 - "fellow elder" and others). Apostles were replaced by elders in churches by then. The "papacy" is so full of corruption, it's easy to see it's not of Christ and His church. Ask a Catholic how to explain when they had THREE popes in 1070! Sorry, just the facts.

Pastor Bill
Both churches, you claim, say they are the only way to salvation.

If you are a member of one, you hear that. If you are a member of the other, you hear that. Both cannot be right. The stakes are eternal damnation for millions.

Explain how that is not an arbitrary test from God's point of view, please.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:10 PM
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I belong to a group in which many people say we aren't true Christians or we teach a false gospel. After a while you just have to accept the fact that people disagree and will think what ever they will.

In regards to whom is saved, the Bible is quite clear about what salvation is, and who receives it. Anything that deviates from that results in missing out on the glory of heaven. So the teachings of any group will speak for themselves and, when held against the scriptures, a judgment can be righteously made.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:10 PM
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You'll have to provide some doctrine or theology for me to respond to. All you've done so far is spew ignorant outdated hate.
Excuse me? Are you reading the thread? Apparently not.

you just responded to a response! I put A LOT of doctrine - biblical and RCC doctrine.

Seems you just wanted to be judgmental without fact.


Sorry, everyone, but there's nothing to fight about here. I've told you the official doctrine of the RCC. It's settled. It's fact. It's not biblical. You don't have to like it, but don't attack me for something that is WELL KNOWN in theological circles of study - on both sides.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:23 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Excuse me? Are you reading the thread? Apparently not.

you just responded to a response! I put A LOT of doctrine - biblical and RCC doctrine.

Seems you just wanted to be judgmental without fact.


Sorry, everyone, but there's nothing to fight about here. I've told you the official doctrine of the RCC. It's settled. It's fact. It's not biblical. You don't have to like it, but don't attack me for something that is WELL KNOWN in theological circles of study - on both sides.

Pastor Bill
You made a lot of assertions, many of them false. You neither proclaimed doctrine (which frankly you can't do anyway), nor expounded theology.

The giants in modern christian theology and philosophy, J.P. Moreland, William Lane Craig, Craig Hazen, Alvin Plantinga, N.T. Wright, etc., do not condemn the modern Roman church.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:29 PM
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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
Excuse me? Are you reading the thread? Apparently not.

you just responded to a response! I put A LOT of doctrine - biblical and RCC doctrine.

Seems you just wanted to be judgmental without fact.


Sorry, everyone, but there's nothing to fight about here. I've told you the official doctrine of the RCC. It's settled. It's fact. It's not biblical. You don't have to like it, but don't attack me for something that is WELL KNOWN in theological circles of study - on both sides.

Pastor Bill
Wrong. You gave your subjective take on a 500+ year old position, and have ignored requests for more recent proclamations, even one that affirms what you claim.

You don't respond.

Stop pretending you're bringing facts and there is nothing to discuss

You fear discussion.
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Old 11-08-2017, 3:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Citadelgrad87 View Post
Wrong. You gave your subjective take on a 500+ year old position, and have ignored requests for more recent proclamations, even one that affirms what you claim.

You don't respond.

Stop pretending you're bringing facts and there is nothing to discuss

You fear discussion.
Baloney. Oh my. Have you ever studied doctrine of a church or theology?

500 years means nothing if they still call it their doctrine, support it, and refuse to remove it. They don't have to reaffirm it every now-and-then. It just stands. They've been asked and it stands. Once proclaimed, always proclaimed.

The Bible is several thousand years old. It doesn't get reaffirmed. God said and it stands.

Pretending? The Council of Trent is real. The Bible verses I quoted are real and in context.

You're the one who has added nothing of fact or value to this discussion. Sorry, but you're just attacking the messenger.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:05 PM
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Baloney. Oh my. Have you ever studied doctrine of a church or theology?

500 years means nothing if they still call it their doctrine, support it, and refuse to remove it. They don't have to reaffirm it every now-and-then. It just stands. They've been asked and it stands. Once proclaimed, always proclaimed.

The Bible is several thousand years old. It doesn't get reaffirmed. God said and it stands.

Pretending? The Council of Trent is real. The Bible verses I quoted are real and in context.

You're the one who has added nothing of fact or value to this discussion. Sorry, but you're just attacking the messenger.

Pastor Bill
It IS real? It's five hundred years ago. The church no longer sell indulgences, therefore bleating "council of Trent" over and over like a mental patient, or a gun board poster who just learned the word "cuck", is wanting.

Show me that the church still holds to the council, or yield.

What I've added is a wholsale destruction of your smug and shallow assertions.

Stamp your feet and say it isn't so.

That doesn't change reality.
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:20 PM
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It IS real? It's five hundred years ago. The church no longer sell indulgences, therefore bleating "council of Trent" over and over like a mental patient, or a gun board poster who just learned the word "cuck", is wanting.

Show me that the church still holds to the council, or yield.

What I've added is a wholsale destruction of your smug and shallow assertions.

Stamp your feet and say it isn't so.

That doesn't change reality.
You clearly don't understand RCC church doctrine. You have to show us that it no longer holds, else it still holds. I've shown RCC doctrine and Biblical doctrine in this thread and the first part of the thread over under Sola Scripture. All you do is personally attack.

Please stop the personal attacks. All you do is lower yourself.

Just making up an assertion that I have to prove something means nothing. You've entered a world you seem to know nothing about - theology and church doctrine. All you're telling us is that you don't like the facts and you don't like the messenger.

Please show us that the RCC no longer holds to their official doctrine, or retire from the discussion.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:29 PM
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The RCC (Roman Catholic Church) is not "Christian" as defined in the Bible -clearly seen in their doctrine and teaching. The Catholic church simply does NOT have Christian doctrine.

And, at the Council of Trent, the RCC clearly pronounced Biblical Christians as "anathema" - we're going to hell!
How does that make you feel Bill?
The Council of Trent says you are going to hell.
And on the other side of the coin is you stating that Catholics are going to hell.

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No, the Last Supper is not honored and celebrated by the Mass. RCC "mass" is known as the "bloody mass" because it puts Jesus back on the cross! Jesus' words were to do this in "memory of Me," not REDO what only needed to be done ONCE.

Again, the Roman Catholic Church, BY ITS OWN DOCTRINE, is not Christian. IOW, they do NOT believe what the Bible teaches regarding belief in Jesus Christ that will get one into heaven. They know it. They want you following the "church" and NOT Christ.
At the Last Supper when Jesus offered the bread and wine to the apostles He said to "...do this in memory of me..."
That is what happens during the Catholic mass.
It is mimicking the Last Supper.

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Originally Posted by billvau View Post
There's really nothing to discuss here without doctrine. Your opinion, unfortunately, doesn't count for anything. How many seminary classes have you taken in RCC doctrine and biblical doctrine to know the differences?

I showed to you BIBLICALLY, that "believe in Jesus" is not a definition of salvation. "try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings" won't get you to heaven either (works-based righteousness). You're right, it's a simple definition, but it's not a Christian definition.
There you go again with your "did you read this, or that, how many seminary classes have I been to....blah, blah, blah.

I'm not a chapter and verse guy Bill but here is something that I remember:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That is from the bible and throws out your last statement about "I showed to you BIBLICALLY, that "believe in Jesus" is not a definition of salvation."

Like I mentioned before:
"Those that believe in Jesus and try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings are Christians. That about as simple as it gets."

BTW, that is from the Book of Rizzo 1:1 <smirk>
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:29 PM
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In 2013, the 450th anniversary of the Council of Trent was celebrated by the RCC and the pope wrote a letter reaffirming the importance and support of its canons.

Why? Because the Bible that grace comes by faith alone. The RCC claims (by no Biblical basis) that grace is mediated by the sacraments of the church only.

They affirm that Biblical Christianity is incompatible with the RCC, and, hence, Christians are anathema.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 4:51 PM
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How does that make you feel Bill?
The Council of Trent says you are going to hell.
And on the other side of the coin is you stating that Catholics are going to hell.


At the Last Supper when Jesus offered the bread and wine to the apostles He said to "...do this in memory of me..."
That is what happens during the Catholic mass.
It is mimicking the Last Supper.



There you go again with your "did you read this, or that, how many seminary classes have I been to....blah, blah, blah.

I'm not a chapter and verse guy Bill but here is something that I remember:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

That is from the bible and throws out your last statement about "I showed to you BIBLICALLY, that "believe in Jesus" is not a definition of salvation."

Like I mentioned before:
"Those that believe in Jesus and try to live their lives by Jesus' teachings are Christians. That about as simple as it gets."

BTW, that is from the Book of Rizzo 1:1 <smirk>
Sorry you're so upset about RCC and Biblical doctrine, Rizzo. If you're not a chapter and verse guy, then don't argue with those who are, and spend their lives studying and teaching it.

You have your belief of what gets you into heaven. As I've shown you, Jesus Christ disagrees with you, the Bible disagrees with you, and even the RCC disagrees with you! So, keep your belief, but don't try to will on others by personal attack.

I never said you had to believe something different. I've never attacked you, just showed external, objective doctrine that disagrees with you and asked if you have the same.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 5:03 PM
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You clearly don't understand RCC church doctrine. You have to show us that it no longer holds, else it still holds. I've shown RCC doctrine and Biblical doctrine in this thread and the first part of the thread over under Sola Scripture. All you do is personally attack.

Please stop the personal attacks. All you do is lower yourself.

Just making up an assertion that I have to prove something means nothing. You've entered a world you seem to know nothing about - theology and church doctrine. All you're telling us is that you don't like the facts and you don't like the messenger.

Please show us that the RCC no longer holds to their official doctrine, or retire from the discussion.

Pastor Bill
No, I don't have to establish anything.

You clearly don't understand how debate works.

It's YOUR assertion, therefore you must support it.

And you cannot do so.

Retire? Nope.
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Old 11-08-2017, 5:07 PM
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No, I don't have to establish anything.

You clearly don't understand how debate works.

It's YOUR assertion, therefore you must support it.

And you cannot do so.

Retire? Nope.
In 2013, the 450th anniversary of the Council of Trent was celebrated by the RCC and the pope wrote a letter reaffirming the importance and support of its canons.

Why? Because the Bible that grace comes by faith alone. The RCC claims (by no Biblical basis) that grace is mediated by the sacraments of the church only.

They affirm that Biblical Christianity is incompatible with the RCC, and, hence, Christians are anathema.

Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 5:13 PM
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In 2013, the 450th anniversary of the Council of Trent was celebrated by the RCC and the pope wrote a letter reaffirming the importance and support of its canons.

Why? Because the Bible that grace comes by faith alone. The RCC claims (by no Biblical basis) that grace is mediated by the sacraments of the church only.

They affirm that Biblical Christianity is incompatible with the RCC, and, hence, Christians are anathema.

Pastor Bill
That's false. You either don't understand the issue or you are lying.

The church affirmed the importance of BOTH tradition and the Bible.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...uncil-of-trent

Your assertion is absolutely false.

You have no facts, only your spin and vitriol.

You seem to have a lot of anger and venom for the RCC, which is strange since there are so many people on earth who renounce God that you could focus on. And before you bleat that you're just providing facts, you're on and on about how a billion people are doomed to hell, so nut up and own it.

Thanks for the insight into your phsyche.
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Old 11-08-2017, 5:36 PM
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That's false. You either don't understand the issue or you are lying.

The church affirmed the importance of BOTH tradition and the Bible.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...uncil-of-trent

Your assertion is absolutely false.

You have no facts, only your spin and vitriol.

You seem to have a lot of anger and venom for the RCC, which is strange since there are so many people on earth who renounce God that you could focus on. And before you bleat that you're just providing facts, you're on and on about how a billion people are doomed to hell, so nut up and own it.

Thanks for the insight into your phsyche.
oh my. more attacks and a non-RCC source. Yes, you have insight into my pysche - If it's properly interpreted Word of Christ, then I believe it. Nothing else. I knew I could answer your query on the RCC current support for Trent and you wouldn't accept it. You might want to go read the official papal letters and documents and see how often Trent is quoted. And, yes, the pope wrote a letter supporting Trent at the 450th anniversary. Read his official letter.

I'm sorry you have to continue to personally attack and make up things. Everyone can see it and you should be banned from the faith forum for continuing this.

I have no anger, hatred, venom, or anything negative towards any Catholic. I know many, discuss with many, have had them attend my Bible studies and, even seen some converted to Christianity. I, like God said, desire that all be saved. But, like Christ said, many are deceiving themselves (Matt. 7:21-23) and won't enter heaven. My job is to proclaim and share the truth of salvation. But, only God can draw and save. So, I have no hard feelings toward anyone - even the likes of you that want to attack and attack. You have my prayers.

In Christ,
Pastor Bill
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Old 11-08-2017, 5:42 PM
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That's false. You either don't understand the issue or you are lying.

The church affirmed the importance of BOTH tradition and the Bible.

http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news...uncil-of-trent

Your assertion is absolutely false.

You have no facts, only your spin and vitriol.

You seem to have a lot of anger and venom for the RCC, which is strange since there are so many people on earth who renounce God that you could focus on. And before you bleat that you're just providing facts, you're on and on about how a billion people are doomed to hell, so nut up and own it.

Thanks for the insight into your phsyche.
Honest question here, in that link it says we are “ saved by grace, but in a limited way, some small way, with the help of grace, we contribute to our salvation “ I’m curious what are those limited, small ways?

Last edited by ShaneB; 11-10-2017 at 2:09 AM..
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Old 11-08-2017, 6:54 PM
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oh my. more attacks and a non-RCC source. Yes, you have insight into my pysche - If it's properly interpreted Word of Christ, then I believe it. Nothing else. I knew I could answer your query on the RCC current support for Trent and you wouldn't accept it. You might want to go read the official papal letters and documents and see how often Trent is quoted. And, yes, the pope wrote a letter supporting Trent at the 450th anniversary. Read his official letter.

I'm sorry you have to continue to personally attack and make up things. Everyone can see it and you should be banned from the faith forum for continuing this.

I have no anger, hatred, venom, or anything negative towards any Catholic. I know many, discuss with many, have had them attend my Bible studies and, even seen some converted to Christianity. I, like God said, desire that all be saved. But, like Christ said, many are deceiving themselves (Matt. 7:21-23) and won't enter heaven. My job is to proclaim and share the truth of salvation. But, only God can draw and save. So, I have no hard feelings toward anyone - even the likes of you that want to attack and attack. You have my prayers.

In Christ,
Pastor Bill
Save the pompous bleating about personal attacks and the laughable “in Christ”.

Telling someone they are damned to hell is a personal attack. Your zeal in doing so undeniably sheds light on your psyche. Deny it all you want.

I don’t need or want your prayers. The thought of someone so bent on telliing others thet are bound for hell based on your subjective opinions about history sickens me.
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Old 11-08-2017, 7:49 PM
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This debate is so good you should sell tickets.
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