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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 12-13-2017, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
They are in possession. Possession means: [... many legal references]
Clearly, felons can't possess and that means they can't handle a gun or a bullet, and obviously can't go to shooting ranges.

Unless someone can show me that there's a totally different definition of "possession" for tourists, it seems like tourists (lacking a hunting permit or some other very unusual exceptions) are just as much banned from shooting (or even handling guns) as felons are. It may be that there's a practice of non-enforcement of this situation, but if that's what the law says, I won't rely on the indulgence of our judicial system.

I won't take non-resident aliens shooting anymore unless I make sure to get them a hunting permit first.

How can shooting ranges allow tourist groups in? I'm quite sure that shooting ranges have insurance which must enforce some policies on them, including complying with federal law? Confused... unless there's some aspect of the law I'm not understanding.
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  #42  
Old 12-13-2017, 1:06 PM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
Clearly, felons can't possess and that means they can't handle a gun or a bullet, and obviously can't go to shooting ranges.

Unless someone can show me that there's a totally different definition of "possession" for tourists, it seems like tourists (lacking a hunting permit or some other very unusual exceptions) are just as much banned from shooting (or even handling guns) as felons are. It may be that there's a practice of non-enforcement of this situation, but if that's what the law says, I won't rely on the indulgence of our judicial system.

I won't take non-resident aliens shooting anymore unless I make sure to get them a hunting permit first.

How can shooting ranges allow tourist groups in? I'm quite sure that shooting ranges have insurance which must enforce some policies on them, including complying with federal law? Confused... unless there's some aspect of the law I'm not understanding.
Just out of curiosity, if range in CA accepts Florida's "Nonresident 10-Day Hunting $46.50"
or one day California non-resident license?
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  #43  
Old 12-13-2017, 4:00 PM
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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
....Unless someone can show me that there's a totally different definition of "possession" for tourists, it seems like tourists (lacking a hunting permit or some other very unusual exceptions) are just as much banned from shooting (or even handling guns) as felons are....
In fact foreign visitors on nonimmigrant visas are included in the same list (18 USC 922(g)) of prohibited persons as felons, unlawful users of controlled substances (e. g., any user of marijuana), and persons convicted of crimes of domestic violence.

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Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
....How can shooting ranges allow tourist groups in? I'm quite sure that shooting ranges have insurance which must enforce some policies on them, including complying with federal law? Confused... unless there's some aspect of the law I'm not understanding.
Assuming this is still going on to any great extent (and while I remember it being common here in the Bay Area it pretty much stopped when the law was amended to what it is today), federal prosecutors have apparently chosen not to vigorously pursue prosecution. There's a principle in the law called "prosecutorial discretion", and a prosecutor can pretty much decide not to use his limited resources to prosecute certain offenses or certain offenses under certain conditions. And of course it's all a matter of his discretion, so he can change his mind at any time.
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  #44  
Old 12-14-2017, 7:09 AM
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So what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?
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  #45  
Old 12-14-2017, 7:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
It's a question of definition. If you let someone shoot your gun while you are standing next to them, are they in possession or are you?

I take a lot of foreign co-workers shooting when they come over for work projects.
Uh, they are.
You'd need a pretty shifty lawyer to argue otherwise.
The 12 judging you understand this.
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  #46  
Old 12-14-2017, 8:10 AM
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If they are here on a work visa they can get a social security number to pay taxes and a driver's license. I don't recall ever seeing a range ask someone with a California driver's license if they're a citizen. I've brought numerous people from Europe to ranges all around the Bay Area and not had a single issue. I mean, you don't walk in and shout "hey, I have a non-citizen and I was wondering if I'm breaking a law", do you? I can assure you, if you walk up to a clerk at a range and say "I have a popsicle stick in my pocket, it might be illegal" they will tell you that you're not allowed to shoot there. Try it.
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  #47  
Old 12-14-2017, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
...I don't recall ever seeing a range ask someone with a California driver's license if they're a citizen. I've brought numerous people from Europe to ranges all around the Bay Area and not had a single issue. I mean, you don't walk in and shout "hey, I have a non-citizen and I was wondering if I'm breaking a law", do you?....
So what?

The law is what it is. If someone has been doing things which are illegal and hasn't gotten into trouble, it doesn't change what the law is. It only means he hasn't been caught yet. And that's no guarantee that he won't be caught and prosecuted in the future.

There's a difference between committing a crime and getting away with it and doing the legal thing. Whenever someone commits a crime he is betting his freedom, fortune, and future on not getting caught. And people who commit crimes often wind up getting caught in unexpected ways. The prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught.

If someone understands what the law is and chooses to violate it anyway, getting caught will be his problem and his family's problem. But at least it won't be my problem.

Also, prosecutors are pretty free to decide when and if to prosecute a violation of the law. They can decide not to prosecute for pretty much any reason. It's called "prosecutorial discretion."

The key word there is "discretion." It's entirely up to the prosecutor, and it can be exercised, at his discretion, on a case-by-case basis. So the fact that a federal prosecutor has decided not to pursue charges against the last 50,000 Iraqi tourists shooting machine guns at a Las Vegas range doesn't prevent him from charging you and your buddy visiting from India when you show him and let him handle your new Smith & Wesson 686.

And lack of enforcement didn't stop federal prosecutors from bringing charges against a couple of guys from Saudi Arabia for renting guns in San Diego County.
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  #48  
Old 12-14-2017, 12:02 PM
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I never said that I break the law. I've just never had anyone ask for anything more than ID and to fill out the waiver. FWIW, hunting licenses aren't exactly rocket science. The law is pretty clear.

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So what?
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  #49  
Old 12-14-2017, 1:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reverser View Post
I never said that I break the law.....
Well, you wrote what you wrote, and one of the things you wrote was:
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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
....I've brought numerous people from Europe to ranges all around the Bay Area and not had a single issue.....
If any of those visitors were here on a nonimmigrant visa, and if they shot or handled guns at the range, it sure looks like you did break the law -- by aiding and abetting the unlawful possession of a gun or ammunition by a person disqualified therefrom under 18 USC 922(g)(3).
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  #50  
Old 12-14-2017, 1:42 PM
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I said that I haven't had a single issue, which meant I haven't had any range staffers waving fingers at me or asking for huge amounts of documentation and booting me out. I'll agree that based on the context my statement wasn't perfectly clear.

Since when is it against the law to bring someone with an out of state apprentice hunting license? Right, it isn't. This has been covered in the past. There are posts on this going back as far as 2009. Every once in a while someone asks about it and this same argument comes up.

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Well, you wrote what you wrote
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  #51  
Old 12-14-2017, 2:50 PM
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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
I said that I haven't had a single issue, which meant I haven't had any range staffers waving fingers at me or asking for huge amounts of documentation and booting me out....
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether by taking foreign visitors, if they were here on nonimmigrant visas, to a range to shoot violated federal law by aiding and abetting their violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3) by being prohibited persons in possession of guns or ammunition.

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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
...Since when is it against the law to bring someone with an out of state apprentice hunting license?...
You said nothing about your visitors having hunting licenses, and it seems rather convenient that you recall that now.

You might want to stop posting in this thread, and perhaps delete your prior posts, before you embarrass yourself further.

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Originally Posted by reverser View Post
....Every once in a while someone asks about it and this same argument comes up.
Because, it seems, that a lot of folks just don't want to believe that the law is what it is.
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Last edited by fiddletown; 12-14-2017 at 3:17 PM..
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  #52  
Old 12-14-2017, 9:46 PM
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Thanks for the clear information on this. I'm never again going to take a tourist or non-resident alien shooting or allow them access to guns without getting them a hunting permit first. This seems clear. I'm not going to hang my own clear record, or someone else's clear record, on prosecutorial discretion, even if the chances of problems are very remote. Why take any chance when they can just spend the $100 to get a PA non-res hunting permit.
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  #53  
Old 12-14-2017, 9:46 PM
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I don't feel embarrassed at all, thanks. I didn't realize that I had to state that I was there legally with my clients. If I said I drove to the store today, would you assume I did so illegally because I may not have a driver's license? Come on now. This topic has been beaten to death here and the hunting license is the oldest trick in the book. It's not convenient, it is cheap insurance. I was simply trying to point out to the guy that range staff don't harass you unless you give them a reason. Thanks for making me write a freakin novel.

This isn't adding to the thread and is just bickering at this point. I'll stay off your lawn now.


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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with whether by taking foreign visitors, if they were here on nonimmigrant visas, to a range to shoot violated federal law by aiding and abetting their violation of 18 USC 922(g)(3) by being prohibited persons in possession of guns or ammunition.

You said nothing about your visitors having hunting licenses, and it seems rather convenient that you recall that now.

You might want to stop posting in this thread, and perhaps delete your prior posts, before you embarrass yourself further.

Because, it seems, that a lot of folks just don't want to believe that the law is what it is.
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  #54  
Old 12-14-2017, 10:58 PM
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If I understand correctly there is a way for a person on a non immigrant visa to get authorization to lawfully posses and fire firearms through the US Dept. of Justice (AG). Is anyone familiar with this process?
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  #55  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by BAJ475 View Post
If I understand correctly there is a way for a person on a non immigrant visa to get authorization to lawfully posses and fire firearms through the US Dept. of Justice (AG). Is anyone familiar with this process?
A process through the State Department is alluded to in 18 USC 922(y)(2)(C), but I haven't looked into the details.
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  #56  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:07 AM
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A process through the State Department is alluded to in 18 USC 922(y)(2)(C), but I haven't looked into the details.
Thank you for your reply. I will explore this.
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  #57  
Old 12-15-2017, 12:08 PM
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So those Las Vegas machine gun renting ranges that have bus loads of Asian tourists lining up daily to blast away all get instant ATF waivers?

Guess we won't get any answers like the Mandalay Bay shooting?
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  #58  
Old 12-15-2017, 5:50 PM
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I wonder if someone from a Visa Waiver country be ok? They are not required to obtain a no immigrant visa. I ask because I have relatives from Germany that like go to the range when they visit. I am also aware that an answer here would be advisory at best.
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  #59  
Old 12-15-2017, 6:31 PM
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I’ll just leave this here. See Q5. https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/...nspdf/download
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  #60  
Old 12-15-2017, 7:46 PM
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I wonder if someone from a Visa Waiver country be ok?....
Yes, someone travelling on a passport eligible for a waiver of a vise requirement and visiting for 90 days or less for the purposes of business or pleasure is probably qualified for the Visa Waiver Program and therefore should be able to lawfully have temporary possession of a gun or ammunition.

The allows a foreign national from one of a number of participating countries to enter the United States for a limited period of time, and for certain purposes, without a visa.

ATF (see Q5 and Q6) has decided that lawfully entering the United States as a non-immigrant when permitted without a visa is not the same as entering with a non-immigrant visa, and therefore such a non-resident alien in not subject to the 18 USC 922(g)(5) prohibition. It looks like this ATF interpretation was made around 2012.

The Visa Waiver Program applies to visitor from most European countries, several Asian countries, and one South American country. It doesn't include any Middle Eastern or African countries. The requirements for a visa are waived only for visits for business or pleasure not to exceed 90 days.
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  #61  
Old 12-15-2017, 8:22 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Yes, someone travelling on a passport eligible for a waiver of a vise requirement and visiting for 90 days or less for the purposes of business or pleasure is probably qualified for the Visa Waiver Program and therefore should be able to lawfully have temporary possession of a gun or ammunition.
Which would perhaps explain why some have reported no problem taking visitors shooting.
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Old 12-15-2017, 8:55 PM
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Which would perhaps explain why some have reported no problem taking visitors shooting.
Yes, when the visitor is from a participating country and here for less than 90 days, and therefore is not here on a visa.

Note, however, that the title of this thread is (emphasis added), "Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range." So the exception for persons here under the Visa Waiver Program would not apply to the persons described in the title of this thread.

And often visitors here on some form of longer term working visa or student visa who are interested in shooting get hunting licenses to bypass the 18 USC 922(g)(5) disability.

On the other hand:
  • There are a lot of visitors here who aren't from countries participating under Visa Waiver Program.

  • There are a lot of visitors here who are here for more than 90 days and therefore must be here on some form of nonimmigrant visa.

  • There are no doubt a lot of visitors here on some form of nonimmigrant visa who don't have hunting licenses.
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  #63  
Old 12-15-2017, 9:13 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Yes, when the visitor is from a participating country and here for less than 90 days, and therefore is not here on a visa.

Note, however, that the title of this thread is (emphasis added), "Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range." So the exception for persons here under the Visa Waiver Program would not apply to the persons described in the title of this thread.

And often visitors here on some form of longer term working visa or student visa who are interested in shooting get hunting licenses to bypass the 18 USC 922(g)(5) disability.

On the other hand:
  • There are a lot of visitors here who aren't from countries participating under Visa Waiver Program.

  • There are a lot of visitors here who are here for more than 90 days and therefore must be here on some form of nonimmigrant visa.

  • There are no doubt a lot of visitors here on some form of nonimmigrant visa who don't have hunting licenses.
Either way, a shooting range isn't going to know what type of visa someone has or even if they have a visa. Ranges ask for ID and that's it. If a foreigner shows a passport, the range staff says ok. I'm not commenting on the nature of the law and whether that is legal or not. Just that "the reason some people don't have any problems" is because no shooting range in the country is going to ask someone if they are a non-immigrant with or without a visa or what the status of their stay in the country is. There's a line out the door and the dude at the counter wants to go have a smoke. You got $20 for a range lane and ID? Yes? good, go for it. No? Well go bowling instead or something.
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  #64  
Old 12-15-2017, 9:25 PM
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Passports work at my two local ranges (indoor and outdoor) for foreign visitors/vacationers.
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Old 12-15-2017, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by FourT6and2 View Post
....I'm not commenting on the nature of the law and whether that is legal or not. Just that "the reason some people don't have any problems" is because no shooting range in the country is going to ask someone if they are a non-immigrant with or without a visa or what the status of their stay in the country is.....
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Passports work at my two local ranges (indoor and outdoor) for foreign visitors/vacationers.
But the law still is what it is. Getting away with something doesn't make it legal. Getting away with something works fine until you don't get away with it. That's the risk anyone takes when he violates the law, and it only works out until it doesn't work out any more. And if it doesn't work out one time, that can cost up to ten years in a federal prison and up to a $250,000.00 fine.

People get away with crimes all the time/. The cops all know who the hookers are and where they're working. Cops all know where drugs are being sold. There are all kinds of illegal activities going on that the police pretty well know are going on, and for various reasons they aren't vigorously pursuing prosecuting them. But sometimes they do, and they can whenever they want.

I'm just making sure folks understand what the law is. If you want to take your chances, that's fine with me. I have no reason to care what happens to you.
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  #66  
Old 12-16-2017, 7:55 AM
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Are these ranges that allow someone with a passport ID to shoot under threat of closure or criminal violation? Do their lawyers inform them of this risk to their business?

Seems that would end that practice on day one. Who wants to risk their business for a few foreigners? (Vegas is excepted because it's well, Vegas).
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Old 12-16-2017, 9:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Mayor McRifle View Post
Passports work at my two local ranges (indoor and outdoor) for foreign visitors/vacationers.
As has been noted, a passport from visa waiver country takes them out of the prohibited category while a passport from other countries would not. The question is whether your two local ranges know what countries are on the waiver list and are only accepting passports from those countries.
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Old 12-16-2017, 9:25 AM
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Are these ranges that allow someone with a passport ID to shoot under threat of closure or criminal violation?...
If the Department of Justice (which includes the FBI and ATF) is interested in prosecuting such violations and is therefore willing to put the necessary investigative effort into finding sufficient evidence to prove that a range has rented guns to someone who the range had reasonable cause to believe is a prohibited person, yes, the range is at risk.

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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
...Do their lawyers inform them of this risk to their business?...
I have no idea what their lawyers tell them. If I were a range's lawyer, I would explain the law to the range management.

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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
...Seems that would end that practice on day one. Who wants to risk their business for a few foreigners? (Vegas is excepted because it's well, Vegas).
In over thirty years of practicing law I've seen all sorts of businesses knowingly take all sorts of often serious legal risks to make a few extra bucks. I've seen taking those risks to occasionally pay off, and I've seen taking those risks to backfire badly.
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Old 12-16-2017, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Note, however, that the title of this thread is (emphasis added), "Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range." So the exception for persons here under the Visa Waiver Program would not apply to the persons described in the title of this thread.
Yeah but I think the point of this thread is, what's the situation with foreigners going to the range? Most of us don't think deeply about subjects like the VWP and so on and we see foreigners at the range and are wondering what the rules are.

From what I have learned in this thread, here are examples which illustrate the rules:
  • Hans from Germany (a VWP country) is here as a tourist for two weeks. He doesn't need a visa and doesn't have one. He's in status in every way (he hasn't overstayed or anything). YES, he can shoot
  • Robert from the UK (a VWP country) is here to do paid musical performances for two weeks. Even though he's here from a VWP country, he got a P-2 (performers visa, a non-immigrant type of visa) to come here and perform. NO he cannot shoot, unless he gets a hunting license
  • Marina is here from Ukraine on a tourist visa. NO she cannot shoot unless she gets a hunting license
  • Jose is here from Mexico on a greencard. YES he can shoot because it's an immigrant visa
  • Satoshi is here from Japan, which is in the VWP. He overstayed 90 days and is out of status, even though he entered legally. NO he cannot shoot, even if he does have a hunting license
  • John is here from Ireland on a student visa or H-1B visa (long-term but non-immigrant visas). NO he cannot shoot without a hunting permit, because student visas are non-immigrant visas, even if he is staying here long-term

By "cannot shoot" I mean, "is a prohibited person", with the same restrictions as a convicted felon.

Is this an accurate summary of the situation? This makes sense because Japanese tourists would have no problem going to the range. Obviously range employees don't know / don't care about these nuances, and let people with passports shoot, because they don't want to spend 20 minutes doing an inquiry into the guy's status. The safest thing for them to do would be to require non-citizens to go to their website and fill in a web form that asks a series of yes-no questions to figure out their status, and complete that and register before they come to the range.

As we know, gun store and range employees tend to be ignorant of the gun laws.
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Old 12-16-2017, 6:44 PM
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....From what I have learned in this thread, here are examples which illustrate the rules:
  • Hans from Germany (a VWP country) is here as a tourist for two weeks. He doesn't need a visa and doesn't have one. He's in status in every way (he hasn't overstayed or anything). YES, he can shoot
  • Robert from the UK (a VWP country) is here to do paid musical performances for two weeks. Even though he's here from a VWP country, he got a P-2 (performers visa, a non-immigrant type of visa) to come here and perform. NO he cannot shoot, unless he gets a hunting license
  • Marina is here from Ukraine on a tourist visa. NO she cannot shoot unless she gets a hunting license
  • Jose is here from Mexico on a greencard. YES he can shoot because it's an immigrant visa
  • Satoshi is here from Japan, which is in the VWP. He overstayed 90 days and is out of status, even though he entered legally. NO he cannot shoot, even if he does have a hunting license
  • John is here from Ireland on a student visa or H-1B visa (long-term but non-immigrant visas). NO he cannot shoot without a hunting permit, because student visas are non-immigrant visas, even if he is staying here long-term

By "cannot shoot" I mean, "is a prohibited person", with the same restrictions as a convicted felon.

Is this an accurate summary of the situation? ...
Very good, and yes, I think that's an accurate summary.
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Old 12-16-2017, 7:50 PM
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Then it's no surprise that there are tour groups of Japanese and Taiwanese tourists, but no PRC tourists at the range. It also makes sense why ranges allow any and all foreign passports. They can always say, "we had no idea what kind of visa or hunting permit they had". This leaves people from non-VWP countries, or people from VWP countries but who have non-immigrant visas, in a bad situation, because no one is telling them that they are prohibited persons. They (not unreasonably) assume that if the range accepts their ID and they sign the forms, they're good to go. But that is not true at all. Lucky for them, prosecutorial discretion, but that doesn't make it legal, or a good decision.

Definitely ranges should have a web signup form for non-citizens to complete before they even walk into the range, to go through some yes-no questions to make sure they are not at risk.
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Old 12-17-2017, 9:12 AM
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At least they should have a list of countries that don't require a visa to come here. Then the RO can check that against the allowed countries at check in. Seems a reasonable amount of checking to prevent ATF shutdowns.
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Old 12-17-2017, 6:43 PM
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At least they should have a list of countries that don't require a visa to come here. Then the RO can check that against the allowed countries at check in. Seems a reasonable amount of checking to prevent ATF shutdowns.
NO THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

That only is true for the 38 countries on the VWP, for people who are here as tourists and have not otherwise violated the terms of their status.

I assume there are hundreds of thousands of people from VWP countries who are here on non-immigrant visas. That includes students, H-1B workers, people doing paid musical performances, journalists, consular staff and many many more. "I'm from a VWP country so I'm ok to shoot" is not true at all.

If the RO wants to keep it simple and cover things reasonably well he should ask this flowchart style questionnaire:
  1. Are you a prohibited person? If yes, can't shoot
  2. Are you a citizen? you're good to go
  3. Are you out of status in any way? If yes, can't shoot
  4. Are you here without a visa? If yes, good to go
  5. Are you here on a greencard? If yes, good to go
  6. You are here on a non-immigrant visa. If you have a hunting permit, or some other very unusual exceptions, good to go
  7. Otherwise, can't shoot
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Old 12-18-2017, 6:51 AM
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If it's illegal to allow a foreign national to shoot a gun, how is it that the indoor ranges in Hawaii are allowed to rent guns to Japanese tourists?
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Old 12-18-2017, 7:24 AM
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If it's illegal to allow a foreign national to shoot a gun, how is it that the indoor ranges in Hawaii are allowed to rent guns to Japanese tourists?
Why don't you try actually reading the thread?
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Old 12-18-2017, 8:15 AM
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NO THAT'S NOT RIGHT.

That only is true for the 38 countries on the VWP, for people who are here as tourists and have not otherwise violated the terms of their status.

I assume there are hundreds of thousands of people from VWP countries who are here on non-immigrant visas. That includes students, H-1B workers, people doing paid musical performances, journalists, consular staff and many many more. "I'm from a VWP country so I'm ok to shoot" is not true at all.

If the RO wants to keep it simple and cover things reasonably well he should ask this flowchart style questionnaire:
  1. Are you a prohibited person? If yes, can't shoot
  2. Are you a citizen? you're good to go
  3. Are you out of status in any way? If yes, can't shoot
  4. Are you here without a visa? If yes, good to go
  5. Are you here on a greencard? If yes, good to go
  6. You are here on a non-immigrant visa. If you have a hunting permit, or some other very unusual exceptions, good to go
  7. Otherwise, can't shoot
So now an RO needs to be a trained immigration officer. I would think the informed owners would just cut all foreigners off to avoid any legal traps. But as we know, money talks.
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Old 12-18-2017, 11:09 AM
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So now an RO needs to be a trained immigration officer.
Guns are highly regulated and the regulations are complex and not always logical and technical violations are usually felonies. Such is the reality of our system.

I can dream that they would have an infraction system (like getting a $200 ticket) for certain technical gun violations where there's no criminal intent, but that isn't how it works.

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Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
I would think the informed owners would just cut all foreigners off to avoid any legal traps.
That would be reasonable. If I owned a range, I would either have a web flowchart questionaire to fill in before coming, or just say, citizens only. Simple and safe rules are the most practical.

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But as we know, money talks.
I guess. My local range always has a line. They wouldn't lose money if they cut off foreigners.
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Old 12-18-2017, 2:54 PM
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Wow, that definitely confirms to me, don't bring tourist friends to the range without being careful to dot all the Is and cross all the Ts. That really is awful for these guys. They showed ID, filled in forms, and were allowed in by the RO, who then proceeded to call the cops on them. Cold...

Even if it's a one in a million risk, I don't want it. A PA non-res hunting license is $101 and takes 3 minute to get on line.
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Old 12-18-2017, 4:10 PM
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Wow, that definitely confirms to me, don't bring tourist friends to the range without being careful to dot all the Is and cross all the Ts. That really is awful for these guys. They showed ID, filled in forms, and were allowed in by the RO, who then proceeded to call the cops on them. Cold...

That is a pretty low and dirty move by the poway range owner. He claimed that he became suspicious because they were filming. I see people filming there all the time.

If someone is actually acting suspicious...then thats fine. But don't let people in....take their money, and then roll them on some chicken%%%% law

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Old 12-18-2017, 4:13 PM
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I guess. My local range always has a line. They wouldn't lose money if they cut off foreigners.
The thing is foreigners aren't like regular customers. They come in and rent a bunch of expensive guns and ammo. I have regularly seen people from germany or japan drop 200-300 bucks for an hour or two of shooting (for 2 or 3 people)
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