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  #41  
Old 05-17-2018, 7:55 PM
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Oh please it's not that cut and dry
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  #42  
Old 05-17-2018, 8:03 PM
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There is a distinction to be made here: When the Japanese attacked the U.S. Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, the attack was made on U.S. territory. When the German Wehrmacht crossed the border on June 22, 1941 and attacked the Red Army, the attack was made on territory of the Soviet Union.

When the South Carolina artillery batteries fired on Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861, South Carolina had already seceded from the union. Fort Sumter was located in Charleston harbor. Therefore, when the batteries commenced fire the artillery salvos landed on South Carolina territory (occupied by union troops in Fort Sumter). Prior to April 12, the Confederate States of America (CSA) command had requested that the union troops in the fort withdraw, but Lincoln chose not to do so. The fort surrendered on April 13, 1861, Lincoln had his casus belli and the North went to war with the CSA. You know the rest of the story.
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  #43  
Old 05-18-2018, 7:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayacuchano View Post
There is a distinction to be made here: When the Japanese attacked the U.S. Pacific Fleet at Pearl Harbor, the attack was made on U.S. territory. When the German Wehrmacht crossed the border on June 22, 1941 and attacked the Red Army, the attack was made on territory of the Soviet Union.

When the South Carolina artillery batteries fired on Fort Sumter on April 12, 1861, South Carolina had already seceded from the union. Fort Sumter was located in Charleston harbor. Therefore, when the batteries commenced fire the artillery salvos landed on South Carolina territory (occupied by union troops in Fort Sumter). Prior to April 12, the Confederate States of America (CSA) command had requested that the union troops in the fort withdraw, but Lincoln chose not to do so. The fort surrendered on April 13, 1861, Lincoln had his casus belli and the North went to war with the CSA. You know the rest of the story.
Well I am sure we can agree that the Union did not recognize the secession, so your distinction, though apt, is not determinative. Even accepting your argument, though, the South fired first. Lincoln's actions at Ft. Sumter were not bellicose or "aggressive." The South could have responded in kind, but they chose not to, in the mistaken belief that they would simply kick yankee butt.

The opinion that the North manipulated the South into providing a causus belli is no more valid than the opinion tjat the South manipulated the North through oh, let's see, secession?

I understand that reasonable people may disagree over the legality of secession, but the idea that the South was some innocent victim of Northern machinations is just not supported by the facts.

The South picked a fight with a superior adversary and lost. They misoverestimated their capabilities because they were prideful and bellicose.
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  #44  
Old 05-18-2018, 8:50 AM
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While I have no control over what others post, the thread was intended for historical interest and distinctly apolitical. I have my own opinions as to causes and blame, but I intentionally left them out. Primarily because the soldiers doing the bloody work on both sides of the field were far removed from the politics that brought them there.
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  #45  
Old 05-18-2018, 8:52 AM
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i've been to norfolk a long time ago.
almost got lost
seemed like every exist on the expressway was battlefield something.
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  #46  
Old 05-18-2018, 8:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
... [T]he soldiers doing the bloody work on both sides of the field were far removed from the politics that brought them there.
That is true of course and I apologize for the derail. I accept political differences, but have a hard time passing up selectively amnesiac falsities such as "the war of northern aggression."
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  #47  
Old 05-18-2018, 10:37 AM
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Thank you for sharing! My mom is from Pennsylvania and we are related to General John F. Reynolds. Gettysburg is quite a sight to see. I went back a couple of years ago to visit family in Pa and my uncle and I were talking about the civil war and he told me a story that one of his friends discovered some old tattered Confederate uniforms in the attic of his home that had belonged to some Confederate deserters. My mom explained to me that stories like that are somewhat common back there, and I guess a lot of deserters lived in hiding. Many of the residents had no problem hiding them as they would help out on the farms.
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  #48  
Old 05-19-2018, 11:14 PM
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Thank you for sharing! My mom is from Pennsylvania and we are related to General John F. Reynolds.
Every Civil War narrative that I have read where Reynolds was discussed said that he was a respected leader and huge asset to the Union. It was surely known to him that being on horseback in the middle of an infantry fight was dangerous, perhaps reckless. But as the ranking commander he was doing everything possible to bring the Union elements up into position and direct the battle.

Having been one of the relatively few number of career Army officers with previous combat experience in the Mexican war, his loss was a terrible blow to the Union. His stature in the army was equal to that of Hancock, also grievously wounded at Gettysburg but who thankfully survived.
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  #49  
Old 05-20-2018, 2:53 AM
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Wasn't Buford zapped in the first 5 minutes of the battle? I like to think one of my ancestors in Archer's 1st TN sharpshooters got him...


You picked a GREAT time to visit. I lived there in Gettysburg for a year ('97 - '98), and we had a fairly mild winter that year, which made it a GREAT time to explore the battlefield without the riffraff around. In the summer (after the re-enactors are there for the 4th of July), you have New Yawk & New Joisey tourists driving on the sidewalks around town - you take your life in your hands trying to walk anywhere - especially on weekends.


All my pictures are OLD school 35mm prints - I'll hafta sit down and scan them all someday.


Not even a battlefield pic (the present chapel was built ca. 1940) per se, but this was a summer thunderstorm in June of '98 that blew up out of MD one evening, and passed to the east of the town. Turned into a tornado over in Lebanon, PA.


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  #50  
Old 05-20-2018, 6:49 AM
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Thanks Bobby.

I hope to get there one decade. The flying machines at the Air Force Museum in Dayton and the Smithsonian Air & Space are in front of the Civil War though. PAX
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  #51  
Old 05-20-2018, 3:20 PM
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Wasn't Buford zapped in the first 5 minutes of the battle? I like to think one of my ancestors in Archer's 1st TN sharpshooters got him...
John Buford survived the Battle of Gettysburg unscathed, but died from non combat related illness later in the same year. If one of your ancestors shot at him, they missed.
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  #52  
Old 05-20-2018, 8:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobby Ricigliano View Post
Every Civil War narrative that I have read where Reynolds was discussed said that he was a respected leader and huge asset to the Union. It was surely known to him that being on horseback in the middle of an infantry fight was dangerous, perhaps reckless. But as the ranking commander he was doing everything possible to bring the Union elements up into position and direct the battle.

Having been one of the relatively few number of career Army officers with previous combat experience in the Mexican war, his loss was a terrible blow to the Union. His stature in the army was equal to that of Hancock, also grievously wounded at Gettysburg but who thankfully survived.
Thank you for sharing, I haven't read much about him as I should have, but I do remember reading that he was a good officer. I'm proud that he is one of my collateral ancestors. As a side note, his maternal side is how I'm related to him. Our ancestors on that side, who would be my several generations back great-grandma, Marie Ferree and her children left French occupied Bavaria for religious freedom. They established a Huegonot colony in Lancaster, Pa. Later descendants, from what I understand became part of the Pennsylvania Dutch Mennonite community and there are several men on that side who served as officers and enlisted in the revolutionary war and the war of 1812.
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  #53  
Old 05-21-2018, 12:30 AM
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Not much talk here about Slavery.

I don't hold with Slavery or Slavers.

It was a good idea and worth the heavy cost in blood and treasure to end the Institution of Black Slavery in the United States.
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  #54  
Old 05-21-2018, 4:31 AM
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Thanks for posting the pictures. I grew up in Laurel, Maryland.
We took a 8th grade field trip to the battle field in 1966. All day at Gettysburg.
Being a history buff it was an amazing tour. My great great grandfather on my mothers side was a surgeon for the south during the civil war. Or as the family sometimes called it "The War of Northern Aggression". We also took an overnight school field trip to Jamestown, Yorktown, and Williamsburg.
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  #55  
Old 05-21-2018, 5:10 AM
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I love the pictures! I've visited 15 Civil War battlefields, and Gettysburg was by far the best. I did not know that there is a plaque in front of Gouverneur Warren's statue, I can't remember seeing a path to get there. While Chamberlain gets a lot of the credit at Little Round Top, there was another officer named Col. Strong Vincent who initially secured the position when Warren saw its strategic value. There's a monument to him too.

The cupola offers a great view of the battlefield. It's a replica of the original. I remember the guide was giving me a detailed history of the Seminary so I thought it was going to be a boring tour, until he started getting into all the battle stuff

The Civil War Trust sends me preservation news all the time, and one recent effort was the restoration of Lee's HQ at Gettysburg. I haven't been there since the restoration, but I'd love to get out there again.
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