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National 2nd Amend. Political & Legal Discussion Discuss national gun rights and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #1  
Old 12-10-2017, 4:59 PM
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Default Foreign visitors with Visas cant shoot at the range

We have a coworker from another country, we told him about taking him to the range only to be let down. We were told unless he has a green card or hunters license he couldnt shoot.

18 usc 922 g 5 b and 922 y 2 27 cfr 478.11 478.32

BS or what!!
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Old 12-10-2017, 5:00 PM
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As far as I know, if you go in like a regular guy, nobody asks you nothing except : are you a member? What type of target? do you need ear/eye pro? That should be it.
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Old 12-10-2017, 5:02 PM
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https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/may-...immigrant-visa
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Old 12-10-2017, 5:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontClaire View Post
As far as I know, if you go in like a regular guy, nobody asks you nothing except : are you a member? What type of target? do you need ear/eye pro? That should be it.
You have to sign their waiver, and they ask for ID.
I was at the range already and he arrived w my other coworkers and 1 came and told me they wont let him shoot or even enter.

Sounds like the ranges lawyer doesnt want to take a chance, i understand tht but this law is bs.
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Old 12-10-2017, 6:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
...We were told unless he has a green card or hunters license he couldn't shoot...
It is the law, it may sound silly but it's still the law.
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Old 12-10-2017, 6:50 PM
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There used to be tourist groups (often Japanese) at shooting ranges quite often, and lately I haven't been seeing that.

From that statement in the link, it sounds clear that tourists (without hunting permits or other special exemptions) can't shoot, even a rental at a range. Is that accurate?
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Old 12-10-2017, 6:51 PM
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Ive taken a numer of foreign friends to indoor ranges with no issue. On target and firing lime to name a few.

I don't do indoor ranges anymore but that's just for personal safety.
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Old 12-10-2017, 6:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampcrip View Post
Ive taken a numer of foreign friends to indoor ranges with no issue.
Me too, but if this isn't strictly legal, I won't anymore.
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Old 12-10-2017, 7:14 PM
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Last time I took a foreign friend to the range he was a UK LEO (armed unit carries an MP5 on the job ). They had no problem with his LEO ID.
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Old 12-10-2017, 7:51 PM
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a number of indoor ranges used to make good money selling time to japanese tourists.
now thanks to another anti law from the demigods this way to make money is gone.

the demigods want total control, and good money ( aka tax paying) companys to fold.
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  #11  
Old 12-10-2017, 8:02 PM
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I took a Japanese national to Chabot about 6 years ago with no issues.
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  #12  
Old 12-10-2017, 8:10 PM
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You're in the East Bay right? I've taken my non-citizen friend and girlfriend to target Masters west before. They just need a licence or a passport I believe. On top of signing a waiver and all that stuff of course. Just try to call a few places up and see which ones might let you take your friends shooting.
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  #13  
Old 12-10-2017, 8:21 PM
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Didn't they nail some students here on a visa for gun violations a few months ago?
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
Not posession. YOU are in posession of a firearm in immediate vicinity of the immigrant shooting it.

I also take many foreign nationals and work permit coworkers shooting. I do not hide the fact.

None of these folks can legally buy a gun. Why? Your link. Unless they maintain a hunting lisence...
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  #15  
Old 12-11-2017, 6:23 AM
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What qualifies as a hunting license? Can it be from any state / locality? If so, what's the easiest / fastest / cheapest hunting license to get? I've never even looked at hunting licenses so I don't know much about it. If there's a way to get one on-line for not much money that might be a way to stay out of any gray areas for tourists who want to go to a shooting range.

Edit: I found out that Pennsylvania offers a non-resident hunting license (available to tourists), which you buy on-line for about $100, takes one to two weeks to arrive. Is that the cheapest / easiest non-res hunting license?
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  #16  
Old 12-11-2017, 7:02 AM
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I've taken foreign tourists to shooting ranges before. No problems. One was Swiss. Another German. Another Japanese. And another Mexican. Ranges were here in CA, Atlanta, and Detroit. They showed their passports for ID and that's all there was to it.
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  #17  
Old 12-11-2017, 7:26 AM
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There is no federal law preventing them from simply shooting.
A foreigner most certainly can shoot.
Maybe the private range may.. But no federal law
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  #18  
Old 12-11-2017, 7:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Not posession. YOU are in posession of a firearm in immediate vicinity of the immigrant shooting it.
Ok, but clearly that concept of "possession" is different for felons. A convicted felon can't even touch a gun, in almost any context (very narrow exceptions exist, not relevant to this topic). If using a gun at a shooting range is "possession" for a felon, how is it not "possession" for a tourist?

Curious... again, I've taken tourists shooting on quite a few occasions, and I would like to do it in future too, and I've seen tourists check in to shooting ranges using their passports, but I want to clearly understand the legality of it and stay out of any gray areas.
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Old 12-11-2017, 8:06 AM
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The gay bay area has it's own constitution and laws. Come down south, they let anyone with ID shoot here. Out in the desert no ID required.
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  #20  
Old 12-11-2017, 4:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Not posession. YOU are in posession of a firearm in immediate vicinity of the immigrant shooting it.

I also take many foreign nationals and work permit coworkers shooting. I do not hide the fact.

None of these folks can legally buy a gun. Why? Your link. Unless they maintain a hunting lisence...
That wasnt the case at Livermore rifle pistol. They wouldnt do it period, their "lawyer said so"
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  #21  
Old 12-11-2017, 8:53 PM
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totally. And my LGS wont transfer AR pistols because they are all illegal. They told me so.

And half the online vendors won't sell me bullets anymore, because that's illegal. They told me so.

on, and on....
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  #22  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by russ69 View Post
It is the law, it may sound silly but it's still the law.
It's a question of definition. If you let someone shoot your gun while you are standing next to them, are they in possession or are you?

I take a lot of foreign co-workers shooting when they come over for work projects.
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  #23  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:10 PM
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What ID, what waiver? Are you kidding me? You mean to tell me in order to go in to the range, you guys show your ID in CA?
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  #24  
Old 12-11-2017, 9:26 PM
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It's technically illegal and some people have been arrested for it in exceptional situations:

Case in point- the dbag owner at poway range

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/loc...363682751.html
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Old 12-12-2017, 6:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklyte27 View Post
We have a coworker from another country, we told him about taking him to the range only to be let down. We were told unless he has a green card or hunters license he couldnt shoot.

18 usc 922 g 5 b and 922 y 2 27 cfr 478.11 478.32

BS or what!!
Not BS. It's federal law. See 18 USC 922(g)(5):
Quote:
(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) …

(2) …

(3) …

(4) …

(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or

(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) …

(7) …

(8) …

(9) …
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.
and 18 USC 922(y):
Quote:
(y) Provisions Relating to Aliens Admitted Under Nonimmigrant Visas.—
(1) Definitions.— In this subsection—
(A) the term “alien” has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(3) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(3)); and

(B) the term “nonimmigrant visa” has the same meaning as in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)).
(2) Exceptions.— Subsections (d)(5)(B), (g)(5)(B), and (s)(3)(B)(v)(II) do not apply to any alien who has been lawfully admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa, if that alien is—
(A) admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States;

(B) an official representative of a foreign government who is—
(i) accredited to the United States Government or the Government’s mission to an international organization having its headquarters in the United States; or

(ii) en route to or from another country to which that alien is accredited;
(C) an official of a foreign government or a distinguished foreign visitor who has been so designated by the Department of State; or

(D) a foreign law enforcement officer of a friendly foreign government entering the United States on official law enforcement business.
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Last edited by fiddletown; 12-14-2017 at 11:58 PM.. Reason: correct format issue
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  #26  
Old 12-12-2017, 6:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
...If you let someone shoot your gun while you are standing next to them, are they in possession or are you?....
They are in possession. Possession means:
Quote:
1 a : the act of having or taking into control...
See also United States v. Huet, 665 F.3d 588 (3rd Cir., 2012), in which the gun a prohibited person was charged with illegally possessing was was not even in his hands but was merely present in the place in which he lived and not secured against the prohibited person's access. That supported both the prohibited person's conviction for unlawful possession of a gun and the indictment of his cohabitant. From the opinion (at pg. 593, emphasis added):
Quote:
...on June 6, 2008, a valid search warrant (the “search warrant”) was executed on the couple‟s Clarion County home. Agents seized an SKS, Interordnance M59/66 rifle (“SKS rifle”) from an upstairs bedroom.

Although Huet is legally permitted to possess a firearm, Hall was convicted in 1999 of possessing an unregistered firearm, in violation of 26 U.S.C. § 5861(d), and is therefore prohibited from owning or possessing a firearm. After being informed of the raid, Huet allegedly told investigators that the guns in the house belonged to her and that it was not illegal for her to purchase weapons. Despite Huet‟s assertions that she alone possessed the SKS rifle, the Government sought and obtained an indictment charging Hall with illegal possession of the weapon, and Huet with aiding and abetting Hall‟s possession....
So the gun Hall, a convicted felon, was indicted for unlawfully possessing, belonged to his cohabitant, Huet. It appears to have been undisputed that Huet could lawfully possess firearms. Nonetheless, she was indicted for aiding and abetting Hall's unlawful possession of gun because Huet's gun wasn't secured against access by Hall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff View Post
...I take a lot of foreign co-workers shooting when they come over for work projects.
Which means you could be prosecuted for aiding and abetting the unlawful possession of a gun by a prohibited person. See 18 USC 2:
Quote:
(a) Whoever commits an offense against the United States or aids, abets, counsels, commands, induces or procures its commission, is punishable as a principal.

(b) Whoever willfully causes an act to be done which if directly performed by him or another would be an offense against the United States, is punishable as a principal.
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Last edited by fiddletown; 12-12-2017 at 7:14 AM..
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Old 12-12-2017, 6:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiterabbit View Post
Not posession. YOU are in posession of a firearm in immediate vicinity of the immigrant shooting it.....
Ignorant hogwash. Cite legal authority supporting your claim. I've cited legal authority to the contrary.
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CCWFacts View Post
What qualifies as a hunting license? Can it be from any state / locality? If so, what's the easiest / fastest / cheapest hunting license to get? I've never even looked at hunting licenses so I don't know much about it. If there's a way to get one on-line for not much money that might be a way to stay out of any gray areas for tourists who want to go to a shooting range.

Edit: I found out that Pennsylvania offers a non-resident hunting license (available to tourists), which you buy on-line for about $100, takes one to two weeks to arrive. Is that the cheapest / easiest non-res hunting license?


Florida offers a ten day non-res for about 40 bucks........that would work for your friend.
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  #29  
Old 12-12-2017, 7:19 AM
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Never been a issue for my friends and family.
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:28 AM
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How do those ranges in Vegas allow all those foreign Asians to shoot when they come there on vacation?
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:33 AM
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Never been a issue for my friends and family.
The law is what it is. If someone has been doing things which are illegal and hasn't gotten into trouble, it doesn't change what the law is. It only means he hasn't been caught yet. And that's no guarantee that he won't be caught and prosecuted in the future.

Whenever someone commits a crime he is betting his freedom, fortune, and future on not getting caught. The prisons are full of people who didn't think they'd get caught.

If someone understands what the law is and chooses to violate it anyway, getting caught will be his problem and his family's problem. But at least it won't be my problem.

Just for reference, the penalty for being a prohibited person in possession of a gun or ammunition is a fine and/or up to ten years in federal prison. The penalty for aiding and abetting would be the same. And of course since it's a felony the penalty includes a lifetime loss of gun rights.
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:39 AM
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fiddletown - this is CA; apparently we only need to obey the laws we like
just ask the governor

Last edited by randomBytes; 12-12-2017 at 7:43 AM..
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
The gay bay area has it's own constitution and laws. Come down south, they let anyone with ID shoot here. Out in the desert no ID required.
Not in Poway.

Quote:
Two Saudi Arabian nationals have been arrested and a third is wanted for illegally renting firearms and purchasing ammunition at a shooting range in Poway.
Saad Mutlak Alsahli, Muath Ahmed Alraqibah and Abdulrahman Abdullah Alolaymi rented a Sig Sauer 9mm pistol and a Bravo .223 caliber rifle and bought 100 rounds of .223 caliber ammunition and 50 rounds of 9mm ammunition at the Poway Weapons and Gear gun range for target practice, according to a Southern District of California court complaint.
...

The men are in the county on F-1 non-immigrant student visas. Under that visa, they are not allowed to possess firearms and ammunition without a valid permit. State records show none of the men had any permit for the firearms, the complaint says.
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimi Jah View Post
How do those ranges in Vegas allow all those foreign Asians to shoot when they come there on vacation?
Again, the law is what it is, and I have no idea. Maybe they have a side business selling hunting licenses.
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Old 12-12-2017, 7:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomBytes View Post
I've taken foreign nationals shooting plenty of times no problem.
Some photo id is all they needed IIRC - even foreign DL.
Congratulations on your confession of committing the federal crime of aiding and abetting the unlawful possession of a gun or ammunition by a prohibited person.
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Old 12-12-2017, 4:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by randomBytes View Post
fiddletown - this is CA; apparently we only need to obey the laws we like...
If you have the bad luck to be prosecuted try that on the judge. I’m sure it will fix things for you.
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Last edited by fiddletown; 12-12-2017 at 5:35 PM..
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Old 12-12-2017, 5:43 PM
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About a year ago I saw some article in a crap paper (LA times I think) reporting on "birth tourism" from Chinese women. They quote that the packages included trips to a shooting range.

I guess that might be a way to scare a baby out of someone, but I don't think taking a pregnant woman shooting is super smart. Now I find out it is also against the law if she is Chinese. A bullsht law to be sure, but still.

I'll see if I can find the article and post the link.
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Old 12-12-2017, 5:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eigenstate View Post
About a year ago I saw some article in a crap paper (LA times I think) reporting on "birth tourism" from Chinese women. They quote that the packages included trips to a shooting range.

I guess that might be a way to scare a baby out of someone, but I don't think taking a pregnant woman shooting is super smart. Now I find out it is also against the law if she is Chinese. A bullsht law to be sure, but still.

I'll see if I can find the article and post the link.
Here is one

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-born-american

This articles says that only the husbands got trips to the shooting range. Well, if they liked it, maybe we can trade them for one our own little tyrants that are constantly shoving more and more draconian gun laws down our throats. I bet virtue signaling, busybody, liberal politics supply great status in China.
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Old 12-12-2017, 5:58 PM
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fiddletown fiddletown is offline
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Here is one

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-born-american

This articles says that only the husbands got trips to the shooting range. Well, if they liked it, maybe we can trade them for one our own little tyrants that are constantly shoving more and more draconian gun laws down our throats. I bet virtue signaling, busybody, liberal politics supply great status in China.
Well most of us will never know what the story says since the entire story is only available to subscribers.
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Old 12-13-2017, 7:08 AM
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Jimi Jah Jimi Jah is offline
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Originally Posted by fiddletown View Post
Again, the law is what it is, and I have no idea. Maybe they have a side business selling hunting licenses.
Seems any anti gun lawyer could then sue and shut all those places down? Or the ATF?

How do they remain in business renting machine guns to foreign nationals on tourist visas?
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