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California handguns Discuss your favorite California handgun technical and related questions here. |
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The California ‘safe gun list’
The California ‘safe gun list’ (This thread is so-named because that is the colloquial name for the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. ) Information is correct as of January, 2008; remember, the Legislature could change this at any time. The author is Not A Lawyer; for Real Legal Advice, consult a licensed California Attorney. Quote:
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No. The original intent was to put ‘Ring of Fire’ gun manufacturers out of business. Unfortunately for that intent, the guns – Davis, Lorcin, Bryco etc. – passed the tests.How does a gun get on the Roster? A manufacturer or an importer (and ONLY those) submits a handgun for testing. They must supply THREE copies of the gun to be tested, and pay a fee. (PC 12130)The Roster shows an expiration date; what is that for? That means it is time for the manufacturer/importer to pay the annual $200 fee for that model. If the fee is paid, the handgun stays on the Roster. Nothing else has to happen. If the fee is paid, no new requirements apply after an expiration date.What happens to a gun if the manufacturer/importer does not pay the fee? The gun drops off the Roster. Ordinarily, this happens because the manufacturer no longer sells that model.If a manufacturer stops paying the fee, can someone else pay to keep it on the list? No. 11 CA ADC § 4059(c) and § 4071The Legislature passed a new law about handguns (e.g. microstamping); what does that mean for guns on the Roster? Unless the Legislature writes the law differently, nothing. Guns on the Roster are not affected by laws passed after the gun was listed; so far, the changes have been required only for guns not yet on the Roster and offered for testing to get on the Roster after the effective date of the law.I don’t get it. Guns on the Roster don’t have to meet the new laws? Right. Example: A Glock pistol was added to the Roster in 2001. Glock, Inc. continues to pay the annual fee.Practically, what does it mean when a gun is NOT on the Roster, or a manufacturer lets one fall off the Roster? California FFL dealers are not allowed to sell it to ‘civilians’ from dealer stock.Huh? That’s it? Yes.Why can’t I buy ‘gun x’, not on the Roster, from Joe Smith, or even Joe Smith, FFL, when those folks are out of state? Federal law requires interstate transfer to go to an FFL in the receiver’s state. [18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5)] If you live in California, you can’t receive a handgun from out of state unless you have an FFL – and an FFL cannot sell a non-Roster gun to a non-LEO.What guns do NOT have to be on the Roster? Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. A list of Olympic target pistols, andWhy is the ‘blue’ one on the Roster, and the ‘stainless’ one not? Manufacturer’s choice. Every model sold by FFLs in California must be on the Roster and paid for, every year.Who’s responsible for this SNAFU? It was SB15, in December of 1998 that started it.The bill went into effect January, 2001. The author was Senator Richard G. Polanco (D-Los Angeles). That bill created PC 12125.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 04-27-2008 at 7:48 PM.. Reason: Add PPT ref |
#3
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....because that is exempt from matters of rostering per 12132PC due to 12078(c) PC 'interfamily exemption' The CA FFL is just used to keep the Feds happy for interstate transactions. If your son were a CA resident, you wouldn't need an FFL as an intermediary. You'd just need to hold a valid HSC card and send in a form to DOJ along with $19 fee. And if that were your brother/sister, uncle, or cousin, etc instead of your son - it would not be the case - since only grandparents, parents, children & grandchildren are the authorized parties for exempt interfamily transfers.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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Not really. I've lived here for all but 2 of my 57yrs. and if it wasn't for my family living here and not able/willing to move, I'd be gone. Family is more important and I have the luxury of a le ccw and exemption from the HSC.
If it becomes so draconian that gun/ammo manufacturers stop selling in this state, then I will move and visit my family when I can. |
#9
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No - both you and your bro have to be here in CA. Your bro would have to move into CA with the gun. Register it with DOJ then PPT it to you with both of you and the gun at the same gun shop at the same time.
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"Loving California"
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Thanks Mel W. |
#13
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Yes, the direction (father->son, son->father) is irrelevant. The only family-exempt parties are grandparents, parents, children and grandchildren. Brothers/sisters, aunts/uncles, cousins, great uncles, etc. are not eligible for the interfamily exemption. A grandchild can give/sell a non-Rostered handgun to his grandma, or a daughter can gift a non-Rostered handgun to her dad, or vice versa.
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#14
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No, PPTs are only between CA residents - and your brother is not an authorized exempt interfamily member (only transfers btwn grandparents/parents/ children/grandchildren are exempt from Rostering).
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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#16
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The renewal notification is sent only to the entity that last submitted, therefore renewal is also restricted to manufacturers/importers. The point I missed making is that not just anybody can volunteer to pay the fee; no informal group of collectors or gun club can do it, nor can any random individual. Thanks for the reminder to be more complete; main post updated. It's really close to the 10,000 character limit, so I can't get the whole reply into that one. And that 'other responsible person'? 11 CCR § 4070(d) (sorry, Westlaw links time out. Rats. Start here. ) Quote:
Any of our FFL members want to think about that?
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 01-06-2008 at 12:25 PM.. |
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if you have a parent that lives out of state and " they have a gun you want " there is no restrictions on transfer between the son / daughter and there parents. so if they have a gun that is not on the list you still can receive the gun from your parents or vise versa. i know this because i did this on the ca. doj information they gave me. this is how i got my non rostered gun. my brother lives in oregon and gave my dad a desert eagle 50ae. my dad later gave it to me. of course you have to do your transfer but totally legal.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#20
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It's too bad more pistols with easily interchangeable barrels did not get on the list before the LCI requirement went into effect. Last edited by mymonkeyman; 02-03-2008 at 10:45 PM.. |
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So I was looking through the roster, and noticed for the first time (don't ask how I hadn't noticed before) that there are no SPECIFIC model numbers listed. For example, the taurus list has "pt-92" followed by a brief description, like "blued steel". There are more detailed descriptions of some of the models, but "blued steel" covers half of the line. How can a person be 100% sure that they found the gun they want, and not another one that fits the description? Is there another version of the roster hidden somewhere that actually has mfr part numbers? Or is this just an even more flawed system than I had previously realized?
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He was a demon. He was a parasite. He was a cancer. We were the cure. And he left you for a bitter grave today. - Coalition Bear There's a lot of fine ways to die. I ain't waiting for the government to choose mine. - Malcolm Reynolds |
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#24
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It would seem that SB15 regulates interstate commerce. Why is California allowed to get away with usurping a power that Constitutionally belongs to Congress? It would seem that if one buys a handgun from an out of state party for their own use, one would not be "importing for sale etc..". Further, if I buy a handgun from "X" in Texas, there is no "sale" in California.
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#26
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Federal law 18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5) have been posted on Calguns a bunch of times, or look it up for yourself.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. |
#27
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A big problem with SB15 is that it effectively creates monopolies on replacement parts.
A gun appears to lose its Roster status if modified, even if identical replacement part(s) of equivalent quality/behavior/tolerances were dropped in. I don't think a rostered Colt 1911 using, say, a replacement Wilson combat or other quality 1991 trigger or hammer or barrel would be regardable as the same gun that was tested/Rostered. [A separate issue may involve Harrott-like listing criteria, however - and that 'listing' (Rostering) is 'good enough.] This is kinda like saying your GM car's emissions warranty/certification ability to be resold in CA being controlled by required use Delco oil filters, radiator hoses, etc. - but if you buy them from another vendor, your car can't be sold in CA. That'd effectively segment out a nice guaranteed monopoly in repair/warrant parts for Delco. Perhaps some Magnussen-Moss issues and certainly Berkey v Kodak-relevant matters pop up here relating to SB15.
__________________
Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#28
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I'm aware that the firearm has to go to an FFL, but the FFL isn't selling anything. He is only receiving the firearm per U.S. law. The buyer isn't "importing for sale" etc, but for his (or her) own use. |
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The FFL is regarded as making the sale if he's bringing in a gun for you. The handwaving of you mailing the money to the dude in Nebraska or Texas is just, um, handwaving: the CA FFL is the gatekeeper, the "nexus".
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
#30
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So why has the vaunted NRA done absolutely nothing about repealing, or at the very least, modifying the so-called safe list. Why do they proclaim it a great victory to allow Jan Libourel or Phil Spangenberger test out the latest "unsafe" firearms, but let BULLSH*T like the safe list stand.
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#31
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If you have the ability to show those folks how to remove it given the current seating in the legislature, I'm sure they'd wanna hire you NRA is just a few folks PLUS YOU on the phones/email. But we were stabbed in the back by CAFR/CRPA' Kathy Lynch and Gerry Upholt. We got the safe gun list in SB15 because of CRPA/CAFR screwup (in conjunction with SASS). It passed by a very few votes and when CRPA's + SASS lobbyists didn't object - since it helped protect large gun dealer/distributors as it gave them a competitive advantage over smaller gun dealers (who couldn't deal with the added inventory costs of turning around guns that fell off the Roster, unlike big guys that could just rotate 'em back to the distributor). The SASS guy got bought off when he got his precious single-actions protected. When fence-sitting legislators saw a split amongst the 'gun people' - not realizing the deatils - they figured it wasn't unified enough and therefore a 'safe vote' to vote for. Rolling back gun control is an incremental thing and often best done in the courts. The recent 'journalists' exemption' is something that can slide thru and can be enhanced in future legislation. Hell, many Calgunners might be able to use it if we start a Products Review column for makes/models
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Bill Wiese San Jose, CA CGF Board Member / NRA Benefactor Life Member / CRPA life member
No postings of mine here, unless otherwise specifically noted, are to be construed as formal or informal positions of the Calguns.Net ownership, The Calguns Foundation, Inc. ("CGF"), the NRA, or my employer. No posts of mine on Calguns are to be construed as legal advice, which can only be given by a lawyer. |
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It seems like the NRA so afraid of losing that they promote meaningless legislation and trumpet the great "victory" when it gets passed. They refused to support the California 2nd Ammendment initiative. They weren't even in favor of Heller until it got to SCOTUS! Once it did they jumped on the band wagon. |
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Sorry you don't like my exposing that "the emperor has no clothes". Why don't you enlighten me on what the NRA has accomplished in California since 1999? I'm an NRA member. But I have begun to wonder why I am when the great legislative victory of 2007 was an exemption for a bunch of hack magazine writers. Last edited by Bruce; 02-11-2008 at 7:05 PM.. |
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You mean like a semi-auto rifle with a permanently attached magazine? whoopee. Where's the great legal or legislative effort to get SB23 tossed?
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#37
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You're either venting, or you must not realize how bad this state really is when it comes to socialism. Venting on this forum won't help you. The deck is stacked against guns, and gun owners in this state. Liberals are just looking for excuses to pass more gun control. I don't doubt for one moment they're looking for every reason to ignore gun owners, and the NRA. We're outnumbered, and that's just a reality. With so much energy why don't you volunteer at your local NRA members council? |
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If you can figure out how to get 21 in the State Senate and 41 in the Assembly, I'd be very interested in hearing your plan. Legal? With the 9th Circuit governing California? We need something to change 9th Circuit's legal analysis. Got something in the last 16 years that would overturn Fresno Rifle? If so, please share. BTW, not to rain on your parade, but kindly start a new thread for NRA discussions; this one is for the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale and related inanities.
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ARCHIVED Calguns Foundation Wiki here: http://web.archive.org/web/201908310...itle=Main_Page "The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane."Ann Althouse: “Begin with the hypothesis that what they did is what they wanted to do. If they postured that they wanted to do something else, regard that as a con. Work from there. The world will make much more sense.” Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs. Last edited by Librarian; 02-11-2008 at 7:54 PM.. |
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I'm not the one venting.
This site was created years ago so that people may get involved. Stop complaining and do something. Last edited by RRangel; 02-11-2008 at 7:44 PM.. |
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