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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 01-20-2017, 10:15 AM
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Default Unconverted Saiga Mossberg SGA stock adapter

Hey all, thought I'd share my latest featureless project.
In a bout of curiosity I googled around and found an example or two of folks getting creative with ways to mount different furniture on their Saiga variants. I saw an example or two of folks sticking Magpul furniture on their rifles but saw very few (one or two) that were still featureless setups, namely this one by forum member Anto:
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1186157

This small piece allows you to run a Magpul SGA stock on an unconverted Saiga rifle. Mine's a .223, however I suspect this would work on most all Saigas of similar configuration, though I'll need to measure an actual rifle to be sure.


I've got one prototype made out of a piece of the original stock, (pictured) and have a few mockups ready that have been 3D printed for prototyping purposes, and plan to hopefully have a machined aluminum or cast nylon version of those complete within the next few weeks.

Thoughts/suggestions/questions would be very welcome.

IMG_0338.jpg
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:22 AM
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Does the rear tang need to be cut?
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Old 01-20-2017, 10:23 AM
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i've been waiting for one.

Needs to be small, clean, and light... i'll buy a couple!
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Old 01-20-2017, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by sintax View Post
i've been waiting for one.


Same here. I have a .223 as well if you need a 2nd test measurement.
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Old 01-20-2017, 11:45 AM
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I would buy one if it works on a 7.62x39.
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Old 01-20-2017, 11:48 AM
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tagged
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  #7  
Old 01-20-2017, 12:20 PM
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Does any part of the the gun or the stock need to be modified? Is there proper space for all the three receiver side screws and the stock bolt to be inserted into a small adapter like this?
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Old 01-20-2017, 12:23 PM
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If you figure this out, and it works with x39, take my money lol
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2017, 12:42 PM
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I've got a 7.62x39 that I'd wanna buy one for, as long as nothing needs to be cut or altered to the receiver.
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  #10  
Old 01-20-2017, 1:32 PM
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Unfortunately, like Anto found, the way the stock fits there is no real way to get around cutting the tang back a little bit. It could be made so that no cutting was needed but then anyone short of literal bear-sized hands would have trouble getting a finger on the trigger.
That being said there is still more than enough tang to re-drill a bolt hole if you were to wish to return to stock as long as the cut is made cleanly.

The stockndoes not need modification to fit.
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Old 01-20-2017, 2:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maleficarum View Post
Unfortunately, like Anto found, the way the stock fits there is no real way to get around cutting the tang back a little bit. It could be made so that no cutting was needed but then anyone short of literal bear-sized hands would have trouble getting a finger on the trigger.
That being said there is still more than enough tang to re-drill a bolt hole if you were to wish to return to stock as long as the cut is made cleanly.

The stockndoes not need modification to fit.
Tagged, i hope Magpul makes one that's plug n play. don't wanna drill or cut anything.

looks good OP!!!
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  #12  
Old 01-24-2017, 9:50 AM
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Hey all - quick update.
I'm working with a prototyping company to produce a small run of test units. I have one or two small revisions to the design to make (namely to be able to test the unit without asking folks to chop up their tangs prematurely) but I now have a rough estimate of a pre-production run cost.

The most economically feasable prototype available at the moment would be an SLS 3D printed model, as setup for injection molding even with an cheaper aluminum mold is in the thousands.

Would there be folks interested in buying test fit, pre-production units to assist moving the project along by offsetting setup by a small fraction? I'd be looking for a handful of folks in both the .223 and 7.62 caliber models to test.

Shoot me a PM or reply to the thread here (or por que no los dos?) and I'll get a list of interested parties together and see if it's a realistic venture to continue.


EDIT: Also worthy of note, even though my iTrader ratings are good, I would not be taking any sort of payment until the run is complete and I have parts in hand ready to ship. I've seen too many forum-related purchases where a seller asks for money and disappears into the ether afterwards and I feel like this would be the proper way to go to allay fears of something similar occurring here.
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  #13  
Old 01-24-2017, 2:35 PM
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I have a 7.62 model. I am willing to buy a test unit to try out if the price is right. I will PM you as well.
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  #14  
Old 01-24-2017, 3:18 PM
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I also have 7.62 model. Would be happy to help test as well!
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  #15  
Old 01-24-2017, 9:53 PM
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I have a 7.62 if that even makes a difference.
If it comes to modifying parts I would rather recess the stock some if possible to fit the tang then cut the tang on the gun to fit a stock. Me personally I might risk hacking into a stock some, but I'm not going to cut the tang on my gun. The other things I think would need to be done is replace the back tang screw and the trigger guard screw with something shorter. Otherwise won't the bolt that holds on the stock interfere inside the adapter with those screws? I've looked into doing something this before but never actually got an SGA stock just looked it over at a shop.

Oh and if anybody else out there made a black/grey laminated wood stock that was shaped similar to an SGA I'd buy that too. I saw the other one the guy made of oak and stained.
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Old 01-25-2017, 12:26 AM
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I will be getting a 7.62 fairly soon would love to try that stock out. Just like everyone else I wouldn't want to do any cuts. Thanks
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  #17  
Old 01-25-2017, 7:08 AM
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PM'd! for my 7.62
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  #18  
Old 01-25-2017, 12:44 PM
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Another quick update -

I've got the threading issue I've been having lately figured out by implementing a captured nut solution. Now the only thing left to do is to get pricing for the pre-production run sorted out.

I'm considering doing a soft silicone mold as the numbers for an injection molded part at this time do not balance out, and the setup cost is something I can manage, leaving me to fill orders on a small scale once that's sorted.

That being said, I've noted most folks who've posted here for their interest. My current model does require partial removal of the top tang, however I'm looking at ways of adjusting this. The most immediate solution I can think of extends the length of pull significantly, however I'll make a quick mockup to test. I'll post pictures later this evening of the current iteration and its fit/finish.
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Old 01-25-2017, 3:12 PM
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I also have a 762 I'd be down to buy one to try
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Old 01-25-2017, 5:09 PM
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Newest iteration pictures!

At this point it's about final minor dimension modification to account for material shrinkage, and confirmation that it will fit on other receivers, which I'm hoping will happen within a week or so. I did manage to crack the latest adapter a little while screwing in the receiver mounting hardware, so it's unforunately not a useable prototype, but that's due to the limitation of my printer's polymer (PLA) and the type of printing in addition to the fact that I printed it not fully filled.

Finish is rough but that will come out with some elbow grease and filler primer before moldmaking. Stay tuned!

IMG_0365.jpg

IMG_0367.JPG
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  #21  
Old 01-25-2017, 7:52 PM
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I'm really liking what I'm seeing
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  #22  
Old 01-25-2017, 8:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cody88 View Post
I'm really liking what I'm seeing
Thanks! Any and all feedback is appreciated, positive, negative, or otherwise.
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Old 01-30-2017, 5:51 PM
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Additional quick update.

I haven't forgotten, but I do have a day job and when that gets crazy, well, you all know how it is.

Anyways, I'll be getting test fitter models out to a few volunteers and in the meantime if you have a pair of calipers and your saiga handy I'll definitely take you up on making measurements of A) the outer dimensions of your stock tang, and B) the inner dimensions of your reciever to help confirm fit.

That being said I've been chatting with a couple moldmakers and we have a design ready to try for pre-production so one of these out of solid plastic or resin isn't too far off. Stay tuned!
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Old 01-30-2017, 7:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maleficarum View Post
if you have a pair of calipers and your saiga handy I'll definitely take you up on making measurements of A) the outer dimensions of your stock tang, and B) the inner dimensions of your reciever to help confirm fit.

Can do, and PM'd you last week, let me know if you need any measurements.
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Old 01-31-2017, 7:15 AM
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Looks like you're making some good progress! I'm excited to see (and hopefully buy) the finished product
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  #26  
Old 01-31-2017, 1:05 PM
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From your first picture in post 17 from and appearance perspective it looks like the angle where the SGA meets the adapter should be changed to bring the back end of the stock down slightly so that the top flat line of the stock is parallel with the top line of the receiver. This would look better and it'll give people a steeper angle on the grip.

Also if you put up different pictures of the adapter alone from different angles, connected to the gun only, top and bottom, the SGA connection alone, etc I think better feedback could be given.
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  #27  
Old 02-12-2017, 9:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevehazard View Post
From your first picture in post 17 from and appearance perspective it looks like the angle where the SGA meets the adapter should be changed to bring the back end of the stock down slightly so that the top flat line of the stock is parallel with the top line of the receiver. This would look better and it'll give people a steeper angle on the grip.

Also if you put up different pictures of the adapter alone from different angles, connected to the gun only, top and bottom, the SGA connection alone, etc I think better feedback could be given.
Steve - thanks for the feedback, I'll take a look at the pictures and angles once I get the time this week to give it a good going over. That being said I think the stock looks kilted upward due to the fact I don't have the dust cover attached. It looks much better with the cover on, and sight acquisition is fine with the current angle. Be assured I will take a hard look at that before I make the final master copy to mold.

As a quick update to the project, I'll be ordering parts for casting this next week. I've been working with a friend of mine who works in propmaking to develop my mold strategy and design. That meeting took a little while to arrange due to us both working wacky jobs but it was something that needed to happen.

As for measurements and fitments - initial research suggests that the inner receiver dimensions of the 7.62 and .223 variants of the saiga both appear to be nominally the same, and all of the test fit parts I've sent out appear to fit without modification, with varying degrees of snugness, which was to be expected.

I'm doing my best to make the final master to a spec that will fit all receivers with minimal fitment needed(hopefully none, ultimately, but AKs being what they are (bent sheetmetal), they're pretty prone to some dimensional shift from a manufactuing standpoint). That being the goal I am expecting the first master or two to need some tweaking dimensionally to account for expansion/contraction of whichever casting material I end up using.

Thanks again to those of you who've offered assistance and sent pictures (keep the offers coming, if you've got a receiver to measure and a set of calipers I'd be happy to take your measurements), and thanks also to everyone following with baited breath and patience.
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  #28  
Old 03-02-2017, 11:36 AM
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Also very interested for a x39 model. But no calipers on hand.
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  #29  
Old 03-04-2017, 9:14 AM
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additional update:

materials for the mold are taking longer for me to aquire than anticipated, partly due to supply issues and partly due to the fact that I've been working 50-60 hours a week the past month. In that light I've decided to delegate and sent a master copy or two off to my moldmaking contact and he'll be making a pre-production mold hopefully within the next week or two.

This likely will end up being a boon for the project because he's got some serious chops in making molds like this and so I can now expect to avoid running into amateur issues without having to be concerned so much about working around my own schedule.

TLDR; mold is coming soon, pre-production non-3d printed models to be available shortly thereafter.
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Old 03-04-2017, 9:21 AM
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Wow definitely looks like a great option for unconverted Saiga's.
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  #31  
Old 03-04-2017, 10:09 AM
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Sweeeeet
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  #32  
Old 03-11-2017, 8:06 AM
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First pre-production part is out of the mold!

17237270_1491449560867317_850428345_o.jpg

Granted this one is in white and is a little rough because the mold needs adjustment to get rid of some air bubbles and to address filling issues but it's a full, solid, plastic part now.

We're rounding the corner to the home stretch here folks, and things are looking good!
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Old 03-22-2017, 5:18 PM
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bump
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  #34  
Old 03-30-2017, 2:36 PM
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Just another mold update on this - I've been splitting my time between a bunch of projects and my 9-5, but again, I haven't forgotten this one.

We're about 2/3 of the way on our first master mold on this, it's slow going but it's still going nonetheless. Once we've got this done I'll be able to get a for real solid part out with an embedded thread insert and (hopefully) start making these available for purchase on a limited basis while we work on a multi-part mold.

17521673_1511441712201435_293510827_o.jpg
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Old 03-30-2017, 3:12 PM
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Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but ATI has the patent on this. US Patent 6,374,528. See especially claim 15. They have in 2002 patented any adapter that adapts any stock to any receiver. The words "overly broad" come to mind on this patent. Their lawyers have shut down sales and manufacturing of our SGW-515 Headbutt adapter, and we've lost thousands of dollars on that product.

Last edited by Exile Machine; 04-28-2017 at 12:13 PM..
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  #36  
Old 03-30-2017, 3:44 PM
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That is bad to hear about that patent. I was personally following this adaptor for my Saiga. They don't make many stocks for it.

What happens to your SGW515 Headbutt inventory? Do you have to destroy them?
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Old 03-30-2017, 3:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NPFreedom View Post
That is bad to hear about that patent. I was personally following this adaptor for my Saiga. They don't make many stocks for it.

What happens to your SGW515 Headbutt inventory? Do you have to destroy them?
We're waiting to hear back from their attorneys on licensing terms. We had to stop selling and manufacturing them in the meantime. There was no requirement to destroy them. If we can't reach agreement on the licensing terms we'll just mothball the mold tooling and shelve the inventory until 2022 when the patent expires.
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Old 03-30-2017, 4:21 PM
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Well there is just under 3 years left on their patent. It's 20 years from when it was filed not granted.
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Old 03-30-2017, 8:25 PM
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Exile Machine has reached out to me on the patent troll issue, both here and in private message form. ATI's patent trolling is pretty despicable in my opinion, and I intend to move forward with the development of the mold as a matter of principle, and because I hate to leave a project unfinished. That being said, when finished, I will release the STL files, and continue development on an open-source, fully 3d-printed option where anyone could print it at home and have it work in a strong, secure fashion.

Thanks to all, for your support. The updates will continue, albeit in a different direction than originally intended.
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  #40  
Old 04-28-2017, 12:12 PM
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Hey folks, just keeping the updates, I know it's been a while.

molded parts are done with metal thread inserts, I've got a working part on my Saiga now. I may end up looking into licensing options to bring this to market still, however I do have STL files available for anyone who wants them.


IMG_0469.jpg
IMG_0470.jpg
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