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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #601  
Old 05-10-2010, 10:48 PM
MARVIN GARDENS MARVIN GARDENS is offline
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Hi.

I've read all of this and I'm still confused. I want to purchase a C&R (it's about 70 years old) rifle that was originally manufactured as a SBR. The rifle has been removed from the NFA list because of it's collector interest and is now a C&R.

What do I have to do to get it into this state legally?

Thanks
Bob

Last edited by MARVIN GARDENS; 05-10-2010 at 11:01 PM..
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  #602  
Old 05-13-2010, 8:44 PM
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I spoke with the Sheriff today and he stated he would sign a Form 4 for me. I also spoke to a superior court judge earlier this week, just in case, and he will sign a form 4. I have a dealer willing to transfer for $100 and a seller in Texas with a Remington 870 MCS AOW. I'm so excited, I'm gonna pee. Hopefully by mid August I'll have the thing. I can't wait to walk into the local range and have them crap their pants when I bring it out of the case. They are (a-holes) so the look will be priceless. It will be worth the $10 even if they won't let me shoot it. Yes, yes I'll post pics when I have it in hand. I will even let some local calgunners in the north/east bay shoot it if they want.


Last edited by Calm Down; 05-13-2010 at 9:44 PM.. Reason: add pic
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  #603  
Old 06-04-2010, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Calm Down View Post
I spoke with the Sheriff today and he stated he would sign a Form 4 for me. I also spoke to a superior court judge earlier this week, just in case, and he will sign a form 4. I have a dealer willing to transfer for $100 and a seller in Texas with a Remington 870 MCS AOW. I'm so excited, I'm gonna pee. Hopefully by mid August I'll have the thing. I can't wait to walk into the local range and have them crap their pants when I bring it out of the case. They are (a-holes) so the look will be priceless. It will be worth the $10 even if they won't let me shoot it. Yes, yes I'll post pics when I have it in hand. I will even let some local calgunners in the north/east bay shoot it if they want.

Which county are you in??? Just asking..
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  #604  
Old 06-04-2010, 12:09 PM
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I spoke with the Sheriff today and he stated he would sign a Form 4 for me. I also spoke to a superior court judge earlier this week, just in case, and he will sign a form 4.


you lucky SOB.
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  #605  
Old 06-04-2010, 12:16 PM
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Which county are you in??? Just asking..
if it were me, I'd keep that info under wraps until after he signs the Form 4. Wouldn't want someone to get to his ear and change his mind.
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  #606  
Old 06-04-2010, 12:26 PM
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if it were me, I'd keep that info under wraps until after he signs the Form 4. Wouldn't want someone to get to his ear and change his mind.
So true... Let us know when u can...
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  #607  
Old 06-04-2010, 12:40 PM
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if it were me, I'd keep that info under wraps until after he signs the Form 4. Wouldn't want someone to get to his ear and change his mind.
I will refrain from naming names. But as an update, I purchased the gun from Bachman Pawn & Gun in Texas last week. The form 3 was sent to ATF on6/01. Hopefully it will be approved by ATF in the next two weeks and sent to my dealer, then I can complete my form 4. Another 10-12 weeks I should have it in hand. I have the fingerprint cards but need the passport photos. I have yet to tell my wife of the purchase, though she knows I've been wanting one for two years. I'll have to find the right time in the next three weeks before the credit card bill comes ($759+ $100 transfer). Hopefully a bottle of wine and a foot rub will make it easier for her to hear. Yes, I'm slightly whipped so be nice.
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  #608  
Old 06-05-2010, 7:50 PM
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I finally finished reading this entire thread and thank you all for the great info and advice. I was totally excited when I began reading about the idea of turning a C&R into a sbs and Im totally bummed that I am no longer able to. But on a positive note Its awesome that some california dealers are starting to offer aow's. I think calguns is doing a great job about spreading information to create positive change. I think my first project will be an AR pistol aow. If anyone knows any dealers in the San Francisco Bay Area that sell stripped AR-15 lowers marked "pistol" or "pistol only" please let me know where. Thanks. Ps. I am aware that the pistol marking is not mandatory however it does give me some piece of mind.
Chase
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  #609  
Old 06-06-2010, 8:52 PM
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If anyone knows any dealers in the San Francisco Bay Area that sell stripped AR-15 lowers marked "pistol" or "pistol only" please let me know where. Thanks. Ps. I am aware that the pistol marking is not mandatory however it does give me some piece of mind.
Chase
It shouldn't give you any peace of mind, since unless you're LEO, you can't turn a pistol-marked lower into a pistol in California anyways.
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  #610  
Old 06-06-2010, 8:55 PM
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I've always wondered since I haven't remotely researched the topic lately, but can one follow the same method for converting an AR pistol to AOW status to affix a VPG?
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  #611  
Old 06-06-2010, 9:01 PM
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I've always wondered since I haven't remotely researched the topic lately, but can one follow the same method for converting an AR pistol to AOW status to affix a VPG?
sure can. I know at least one AK pistol was VFG'ed after an approved AOW Form 1. pistol AW regs still apply, so still have to keep the mag lock and <11-round mags.
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  #612  
Old 06-06-2010, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
sure can. I know at least one AK pistol was VFG'ed after an approved AOW Form 1. pistol AW regs still apply, so still have to keep the mag lock and <11-round mags.
Oh the temptation! I would love to make it uber-evil now...
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  #613  
Old 06-06-2010, 9:03 PM
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Originally Posted by bdsmchs View Post
It shouldn't give you any peace of mind, since unless you're LEO, you can't turn a pistol-marked lower into a pistol in California anyways.
However, you can roll your own from an 80%'er...
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  #614  
Old 06-07-2010, 10:31 AM
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However, you can roll your own from an 80%'er...
Yep. Z me fly is doing his 2nd round GB on them now...

Justin
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  #615  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:16 PM
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It shouldn't give you any peace of mind, since unless you're LEO, you can't turn a pistol-marked lower into a pistol in California anyways.
Why is that? if it is legal to create an AR pistol from a virgin lower why would it matter whether or not it says "pistol" on it? I know of a few stores in california that sell entire AR pistols but i would like to build my own.

Last edited by chaseface; 06-07-2010 at 4:19 PM..
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  #616  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:20 PM
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Why is that? if it is legal to create an AR pistol from a virgin lower why would it matter whether or not it says "pistol" on it?
because, In CA, that virgin lower has to be DROSed as a long gun. It can't be DROSed as a pistol due to roster issues. It has not been determined if a "long gun" DROS taints that lower so that it can never become a pistol or not. So, for now, it has been asked by The Right People that we not push in this area, expecially when a complete AR-pistol can be easily acquired in CA legally, and be handgun DROSed, so that there are no concerns about any "long gun DROS contamination".

those AR-pistols that you see for sale in some stores in CA are configured into a roster-exempt configuration so that they can be DROSed as a handgun and still comply with the roster regulations. A stripped lower DROSed as a pistol doesn't comply with the roster regulations.
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  #617  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:34 PM
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I must be missing some part of this conversation. Because you most certainly can DROS a virgin non-pistol marked lower as a handgun. It just has to be assembled into a pistol first. If ordering online from an out of state dealer, simply ship them your upper, parts kit, bullet button and single shot bob-sled and have them assemble it for you before sending it to your local FFL for DROS.

In fact, as far as I know even if it is marked PISTOL, it still must be assembled and rendered a single shot before you DROS it. Simply saying PISTOL on the side of it does not make any difference at all. It has nothing to do with anything.

I do agree, you can't just bring in a bunch of unassembled virgin or pistol marked lowers and DROS them as handguns. But if they are assembled before the hit your FFL, then you're perfectly fine regardless of how they are marked.

This is common knowledge my friend.
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  #618  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:42 PM
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I must be missing some part of this conversation. Because you most certainly can DROS a virgin non-pistol marked lower as a handgun. It just has to be assembled into a pistol first.
but at that point it isn't a virgin lower anymore. It has fornicated with a parts kit to become a pistol. And as long as it is in a roster-exempt configuration, then it can be DROSed as a pistol.


Quote:
If ordering online from an out of state dealer, simply ship them your upper, parts kit, bullet button and single shot bob-sled and have them assemble it for you before sending it to your local FFL for DROS.
correct, if once it is at your local FFL in a roster-exempt configuration, then it can be DROSed to you. Now, it may not be kosher for that out-of-state dealer to assemble a lower with a parts kit if is is an 01FFL, not an 07FFL that marked it with his info, but that is between him and ATF.
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  #619  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:44 PM
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Engraved "Pistol" has no legal significance...
You will not find any AR styled pistols on the Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale... So when you DROS the virgin lower as a pistol it will be rejected unless you are a LEO...

Unless it is already properly configured and exempt...

You should do some research on the single shot exemption, and the DROS process...
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  #620  
Old 06-07-2010, 4:48 PM
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I think I'll have a little of both!
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  #621  
Old 06-07-2010, 5:21 PM
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but at that point it isn't a virgin lower anymore. It has fornicated with a parts kit to become a pistol. And as long as it is in a roster-exempt configuration, then it can be DROSed as a pistol.




correct, if once it is at your local FFL in a roster-exempt configuration, then it can be DROSed to you. Now, it may not be kosher for that out-of-state dealer to assemble a lower with a parts kit if is is an 01FFL, not an 07FFL that marked it with his info, but that is between him and ATF.
So what makes a roster-exempt configuration? also is it possible to buy a fully assembled lower in a pistol configuration? ad then build the upper that i want? i've never seen a fully assembled lower for sale by itself in a store but im just curious
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  #622  
Old 06-07-2010, 5:29 PM
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So what makes a roster-exempt configuration? also is it possible to buy a fully assembled lower in a pistol configuration? ad then build the upper that i want? i've never seen a fully assembled lower for sale by itself in a store but im just curious
A fully-assembled AR-pistol that is set up in a single-shot configuration (with a zero-round magazine "SLED" and a fixed mag lock) and meets the dimensional requirements would be roster exempt.

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12133(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 10 1/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
a fully-assembled pistol lower, or a striped lower, do not meet that exemption posted above, since they don't have a barrel of 6" or more.

Because of that, you have ot buy a complete AR-pistol. You can't buy the lower and then add your own upper later, it must be complete when you DROS it.
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  #623  
Old 06-07-2010, 5:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ke6guj View Post
A fully-assembled AR-pistol that is set up in a single-shot configuration (with a zero-round magazine "SLED" and a fixed mag lock) and meets the dimensional requirements would be roster exempt.

a fully-assembled pistol lower, or a striped lower, do not meet that exemption posted above, since they don't have a barrel of 6" or more.

Because of that, you have ot buy a complete AR-pistol. You can't buy the lower and then add your own upper later, it must be complete when you DROS it.
So after it is purchased, is it then legal to turn it Semi Auto with the use of a mag lock? by the way thanks for the great info. Im new to calguns and your guys information has helped out a lot. I want to own every cool gun i see but i also want to be a responsible gun owner within the confines of the law.
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  #624  
Old 06-07-2010, 5:46 PM
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yes, there is no law that says you can't modify a handgun you own from one type of handgun to another, provided that you don't violate some other law in the process, such as make an AW or AOW out of it (and you can AOW it if you have an approved Form 1 first).
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  #625  
Old 06-07-2010, 5:50 PM
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Ok cool. One more question. I understand the whole Trust thing, and that if you want to create an AOW it makes like a lot easier. But how do you buy an AOW such as the super shorty from OC arms?? it is my understanding that you have to buy a gun and then transfer it to the trust, and that trusts themselves cannot purchase a gun? am i correct? and how else can this be dealt with?
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  #626  
Old 06-07-2010, 6:18 PM
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you are buying it on behalf of the trust. YOu fill out the DROS and the 4473 in your name and include a letter stating that you are buying it on behalf of the trust. that is the way that the feds want it done.
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Old 06-07-2010, 6:30 PM
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right on. Thanks again Jack
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Old 06-11-2010, 10:24 AM
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Bachman Pawn called me this morning. The Form 3 was approved and they are shipping MCS AOW today. It should be at my dealer either tomorrow (I'm not sure if it's an overnight ship) or I'll see it Tuesday. I completed my fingerprint cards and obtained my passport photos. I'll have the dealer help me with the Form 4 and have it signed by my CLEO by next Friday. Then the uneasy wait will begin for 8-12 weeks. I'll post a pic next week when it gets in. Sean at Bachman Pawn sold me the last one he had and they're not ordering anymore; however there is one for sale on gunbroker for $900.http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/Vie...Item=173198572
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Old 06-11-2010, 11:01 AM
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sweet
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  #630  
Old 06-11-2010, 12:17 PM
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I will refrain from naming names. But as an update, I purchased the gun from Bachman Pawn & Gun in Texas last week. The form 3 was sent to ATF on6/01. Hopefully it will be approved by ATF in the next two weeks and sent to my dealer, then I can complete my form 4. Another 10-12 weeks I should have it in hand. I have the fingerprint cards but need the passport photos. I have yet to tell my wife of the purchase, though she knows I've been wanting one for two years. I'll have to find the right time in the next three weeks before the credit card bill comes ($759+ $100 transfer). Hopefully a bottle of wine and a foot rub will make it easier for her to hear. Yes, I'm slightly whipped so be nice.
That is a fast form 3! I know my last one was 3 months on the dealer to dealer.
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Old 06-11-2010, 1:53 PM
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That is a fast form 3! I know my last one was 3 months on the dealer to dealer.
Now only if the Form 4 gets approved as quickly, I'll be impressed. I probably just jinxed myself. This will be my first NFA firearm but hopefully not my last. It will be up to my CLEO if I can get a Maglite .410 AOW next or a side by side AOW 12ga if anybody starts making them. Other than a G.R.A.D. knife pistol, Serbu Shorty, MCS and Maglite gun; what other AOW's are available that are not "pen guns"?
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #632  
Old 06-11-2010, 2:05 PM
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cane guns are AOW.


ATF considers a firearm inside a firing briefcase to be an AOW, but the way that ATF registers the firearm as the AOW, and not the container may not provide an exemption to CA's ban on "camoflaging firearms containers".
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Old 06-11-2010, 2:39 PM
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I wonder if you can get the receiver and build it as a AOW? Does the bore size matter? I know the tubes are easy to get but the receivers are available new.
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Old 06-11-2010, 3:21 PM
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[IMG]
I wonder if you can get the receiver and build it as a AOW? Does the bore size matter? I know the tubes are easy to get but the receivers are available new.
ATF has some wierd ideas in what they call AOW and what they call DD. take a super shorty, it is a smoothbore pistol and is called an AOW, even though it has a bore over >.50". But put a rifled barrel on it so it wouldn't be a smoothbore pistol and now it is a DD. So, it has a sporting purpose exemption from DD-status when it is an AOW, but no DD-exemption when it isn't an AOW?

Not sure if they would take the same position on a 40mm smoothbore pistol being an AOW or if they would call it a DD. Now, you might be able to put a 12ga barrel on it and call it an AOW.

edit: in any case, I assume that CA would call it a DD if it had a 40mm barrel, and the AOW exemption does not cover DDs.
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Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

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  #635  
Old 06-11-2010, 7:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Calm Down View Post
I spoke with the Sheriff today and he stated he would sign a Form 4 for me. I also spoke to a superior court judge earlier this week, just in case, and he will sign a form 4. I have a dealer willing to transfer for $100 and a seller in Texas with a Remington 870 MCS AOW. I'm so excited, I'm gonna pee. Hopefully by mid August I'll have the thing. I can't wait to walk into the local range and have them crap their pants when I bring it out of the case. They are (a-holes) so the look will be priceless. It will be worth the $10 even if they won't let me shoot it. Yes, yes I'll post pics when I have it in hand. I will even let some local calgunners in the north/east bay shoot it if they want.



Please take a look at this web site before allowing others to fire your NFA firearm:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/how-to...-class-3-fire/

"The NFA defines who can own a Title II firearm as a natural person, corporation or trust.... When an individual makes application to own a Title II firearm they are the only person who can be in possession or have access to the firearm. This creates a problem for many individuals who are married, have others who know the combination or how to gain access to the items, or want to allow others to use the firearms, even in their presence."

IANAL, but this suggests to me that only you can shoot your NFA firearm.
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  #636  
Old 06-11-2010, 7:11 PM
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ke6guj ke6guj is offline
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Please take a look at this web site before allowing others to fire your NFA firearm:
http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/how-to...-class-3-fire/

"The NFA defines who can own a Title II firearm as a natural person, corporation or trust.... When an individual makes application to own a Title II firearm they are the only person who can be in possession or have access to the firearm. This creates a problem for many individuals who are married, have others who know the combination or how to gain access to the items, or want to allow others to use the firearms, even in their presence."

IANAL, but this suggests to me that only you can shoot your NFA firearm.
that only applies if he were to loan the NFA firearm to a person to use while not in the owner's presence. He can allow others to shoot his NFA stuff while he is there next to him. As an example, many of those machine guns that are rented during the machine gun shoots are personally owned, and they can let others shoot their stuff legally. Its been that way for the last 76 years.


Now, it may not be kosher for him to go to the range and let his buddies shoot his stuff while he goes to the main office or the pro shop. But as long as he is there on the line, it isn't a problem.
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Old 06-17-2010, 3:43 PM
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My MCS arrived today. I did not get a chance to see it before it was put in a safe. I was told via telephone by the owner that only he can removed it from the safe and his employees don't have access to NFA weapons. I have to make an appointment for next week to complete the Form 4 and visit my gun when the owner is present. The anticipation is killing me.
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Old 06-22-2010, 4:49 PM
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I met my gun today, she's beautiful. The Form 4 is filled out awaiting CLEO signature, FBI cards complete and passport photos taken. The dealer said it is taking between 3-6 months for ATF to complete forms. So sometime between my birthday and Christmas, I will take possession. I shall name her Beyonce.


Last edited by Calm Down; 06-22-2010 at 7:36 PM.. Reason: add
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Old 06-22-2010, 5:28 PM
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Do you want an AOW or C&R SBS/SBR in CA?

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  #640  
Old 06-23-2010, 8:52 PM
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I am glad people are exercising their rights. Someday, I will do this too.

Because I can.
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I am always looking for Beretta D models in 9mm or a Compact Type M.
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