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California 2nd Amend. Political Discussion & Activism Discuss gun rights activism and 2A related political topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #41  
Old 03-17-2019, 9:48 PM
LongLiveTheRepublic LongLiveTheRepublic is online now
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I've may or may not have seen some things.. but why should I help the commifornian government enforce unconstitutional laws?
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  #42  
Old 03-18-2019, 1:59 AM
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Geez, juvy for a fight? No wonder kids are so weak these days. 20 years ago, nobody would've ever thought to sue the school over a fight between kids either, at least not where I grew up.
I agree with you 100%. Its also the parents. They are todays problem all over the US. They all have rights, itching to sue anybody to make a fast buck and are part of the "look at me" "social medial" liberal movement. ****en pathetic.

These are parents born/brought up in the 1970s and 1980s.

I talked to Oceanside PD and NCPD and they all have told me North County and downtown SD public is not ready for open carry and most folks dont understand black firearms/semi auto AR15/AK47 style firearms and they think they are bad even though they have absolutely no training or have even handled the firearms. Plus there is a huge population not ready to accept this. Thats the sad part. Then you have Hollywood liberals and the leadership in Sacramento pushing the same crap.

Out of state PDs tell you use discretion and dont be a turd at public ranges in California. Thats common sense.
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  #43  
Old 03-18-2019, 3:04 PM
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Give Newsome time, I cannot believe it is not on his agenda.

Dan
He's just waiting for the next mass shooting in California. It's just a matter of time.
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  #44  
Old 03-18-2019, 3:41 PM
Drew Eckhardt Drew Eckhardt is offline
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Originally Posted by ajb78 View Post
Geez, juvy for a fight?
It's a light punishment.

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No wonder kids are so weak these days.
In many states it's legal to stop battery with deadly force. Kids should learn fighting is inappropriate before taking a lethal lesson.

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20 years ago, nobody would've ever thought to sue the school over a fight between kids either, at least not where I grew up.
Any entity which prohibits self defense with weapons should be liable.
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  #45  
Old 03-18-2019, 9:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Drew Eckhardt View Post
It's a light punishment.



In many states it's legal to stop battery with deadly force. Kids should learn fighting is inappropriate before taking a lethal lesson.



Any entity which prohibits self defense with weapons should be liable.

Juvy is not light punishment....its jail, albeit for kids. And just because its legal for an adult to stop another adult from attacking them with potentially lethal force, its obviously different when you have two kids fighting in middle or high school.
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  #46  
Old 03-20-2019, 7:08 AM
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This is very true. I hear this goofiness from my high school students all the time. They are certain they can get away with anything, like bringing a gun to school to show off or for whatever reason, or to sell drugs, or fighting.



When caught they refuse to accept that another student ratted them out. The last two guns brought to school by students were discovered because a student slide a piece of paper under the door of the SRO with all the details. An administrator and the SRO went to collect the suspected student and the student was surprised that an administrator can search a student's backpack the same as a parent can.



When we have a fight on campus, we have a number of students who are more than willing to tell all. They come to the teacher and ask for a pass to the nurse because they feel sick and then they are smiling their guts. They have learned, their privacy is protected as a minor so the main players get called in and all of a sudden they are talking because the one who talks first just might get less of a consequence and avoid a trip with the SRO to juvenile hall.



Every student who engages in a fight, whether or not it is claimed self-defense usually gets the ride to juvenile hall. The district has decided to let the courts decide as it has cut down dramatically on lawsuits by parents.



What most students and parents claim is self-defense is actually mutual combat.
Everything that you said sounds horrible. Where is this?
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  #47  
Old 03-20-2019, 7:25 AM
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Parents do all the time. Why do you think the school gets involved when your kid gets in a fight off campus; Parent lawsuits and pressure on politicians to change the law.



If someone videos a student in a fight on a Saturday and it gets posted on social media and this is brought to the attention of the school, they have to investigate and follow through. My campus has 2200 students and 4 administrators. We should have 6 administrators but the district would rather pay our superintendent $300,000 a year and provide her 3 administrative assistants at $100,000 each than hire more site level administrators. Drop two of her administrative assistants and they could cover two assistant principals and the number of fights would decrease.



Fights are not like they used to be. It is not one on one and after a few minutes it is over. It becomes I am losing so I bring out my knife and start slashing the other kid. It is I got the other kid on the ground and now I will stop his head until I decide he has paid enough. We have had 4 students that I know of end up in the hospital in a coma because they were beaten to near death and only stopped when security was finally able to wade through the crowd of students that is actively blocking their access and pull the aggressor off. You look at the video and see the kid on the ground started it, so legally it is mutual combat. Parents of the kid in the hospital sue because we did not protect their kid. They get upset because when the lawyers get done they realize they have nothing to base their suit on, their kid started it and others blocked security and administration from getting to the combatants. Our security also has a full time SRO and a part time one on campus at such and after school. The kids will even jump the police.



So, the policy of all get arrested and to to juvie for whatever booking they go through and cited and released to their parents. The judge figures it out. It stops the majority of suits cold in their tracks. Parents cannot find an attorney willing to take a case because there is no case and they parents do not want to pay the fee upfront for a Civil suit that will take 5 years to get through our clogged court system. in a civil suit, they even have to pay the jurors their salary they would get if they were at work if they lose. The attorney wants all of this up front. My sister loved being on a jury for a civil case.



The only attorneys that take a case are ones that are confident they will win and recover all costs from the district, or who are bluffing and hope for a settlement. The district has learned to call the bluff because all of a sudden the case is dropped. The parents do not want to pay up front the cost to continue.



Last year I pulled a kid off of another student he had on the ground. He was twice her size and kicking her in the head. She was unconscious. Since I am only a teacher the district did not defend me when the parents filed suit against me. I did not harm their child or hurt him in anyway. Of course there were several students videotaping and sending out over snapchat and instagram.



I was supposed to call for security and administration and let them deal with it. It takes them about 5 minutes to get to my room. This kid had already hospitalized 3 students in the previous year. He is severally mentally ill but we have to keep in under the special ed. laws. I knew that and acted. I was not supposed to have that information and it was purposely withheld from me. I was told it by his previous special ed. teacher.



My union spent $150,000 to defend me from the civil and criminal charges. The district also invoked state law for state employees and claimed I was defiant for not following instructions from the principal to not intervene. That never happened but it was being used to fire me.



I came out with no criminal charges (the worst would have been a misdemeanor and the DA laughed when it came to his attention, he told me good job for protecting a student). The police were not my friend and questioned me for awhile. I said speak to my attorney and kept quiet for an hour. The principal was hoping I would leave because she was ready to write me up for defiance as she pulled me out of class, brought in a sub for the rest of the day, and directed me to answer the questions of the two detectives that were sent. The detectives got tired talking to a wall and left. I was warned in advance by a union attorney this could happen and not to walk out because doing so could cause me to be dismissed on the spot. I also was not obliged to answer their questions until they arranged for an attorney for me. The principal knew and was told by a district administrator to not follow through because he knew what the process was and did not want to waste time or spend money on a sub for me when I would not answer anything.



Then my attorney contacted me and I followed her directions to the letter. The police were contacted and told to speak to her and leave me out of it unless they had an arrest warrant. They did. The principal was told I would not answer any of her questions, even with my attorney present. She did all the talking. My other attorney then stepped in for the criminal charges and went to the DA as the parents were pushing for my arrest. He spoke with the DA then I was called in and told no charges would be filed, ever. I got that in writing and my attorney took it to my district and made it clear that I did not violate any state laws.



In the end, after a few months of back and fourth an agreement was signed, I was on probation for 90 days and could be dismissed without cause if I violated any part of the contract or State or Federal education law. I would never again physically intervene when students are fighting, I would do my legal duty and call for an administrator. I got the numbers to their personal cell phones they use when on campus.



The principal was to be the first responder to my room for any student altercation. If she were not on campus it would be the vice-principal.



I learned that if I do not intervene State law protects me and the district is required to legally defend me because if a civil suit goes against me they have to pay out as I am acting as directed by them as an employee.



I used to have no more than one fight in my room. Since this happened, I had 4 others last school year and 6 this school year. My students know I cannot intervene. Half started when a student outside of my class was let in by another student without my permission and mostly after I told them to not open the door, and then the student not in my class attacked another student in my class. Once it was 5 one one. I called the principal and waited outside as directed. I told the other students to leave the class, if they did, they were good, if they did not, I was no longer responsible for their injuries, I did what I was directed. When the principal came with security, they covered both doors, and did not let anyone out. Then more came and they went in to deal with the fight if it were still going on.



The combatants were removed and then all the students that stayed behind were identified and their parents called. They could be suspended for not leaving the scene of a fight. All the cell phones were confiscated and searched and of course there was video. Like it or not, administrators can search cell phones for video. If the student or parent do not give up the password, it goes to the police station and becomes part of the evidence. If they give it up, the video is transferred to an administrators hard drive and the phone returned. If the phone was confiscated, the judge in the case might release it in a year or two. The parents who have contracts are pissed, they still have to pay until they transfer it to a new phone.



Some of the kids just watching are suspended under the Ed. Code provision and the district policy of contributing to a fight by not leaving the scene when directed.



That is how a school goes from have few fights of no consequences to near riots in the parking lot that requires a police response or parents coming onto campus, going to the room which has a student they believed dissed their child and entering and beating the **** out of him or her.



Teachers are not allowed to break up fights and parents expect us to deal with all the social media drama that occurs outside of school. There is no loosing a fight, you stack the deck in your favor, you get your crew to back you up so if you start to loose, they jump in and beat the crap out of the enemy of their friend. Everything is fair game, knives, books, pipes, or whatever is at hand.



That is why I make it clear, the average high school is not safe. Tell your kid to fight back and he or she will all of a sudden have 20 or 30 kids beating his or her behind. Because your kid willingly engaged in the initial combat without backing down or GTFO at the first sign of trouble, your kid gets cited and suspended for fighting. The gangbangers and other jerks love to set other kids up for this. They spend a few days in juvie because their parole was revoked, and then are back in school with a new ankle bracelet to show off as a badge of honor. Mean time your kid is still lying in the hospital in a coma or recovering from broken bones and internal injuries.



The video of the whole thing is more than enough to protect the district, they did what they were legally required to do, no more and no less.



I had a student bring paper spray to school. It was on her keychain and given to her by her father. She was a junior and her dad told her she had to carry it at all times. It finally came to the attention of an administrator because so many young ladies carry their keys in hand through out the day and she did the same. I had warned her to leave the pepper spray at home and I called her dad about it.



She was expelled for bringing a dangerous item to school. She would not have been had dad kept his mouth shut but instead made it known that I had contacted him about it and claimed I never stated it was illegal. I had to pull out my record of the conversation and show I called and I wrote, daughter needs to leave pepper spray at home, she can face serious consequences including suspension and expulsion if she is caught with it.



He admitted I called him about it, it is in the student handbook and on the separate page all parents have to sign about what is contraband in school. If parents do not sign, their kid is held in the office until the parent comes up to sign it. If they do not sign it, then the administrator and another witness fill out a statement to that fact and it is legally acceptable even if the parent does not sign it. The video of the parent entering school is saved and the note is placed in the file as to why the parent came in.



So had he just said, my bad, I did not think clearly when I gave it to her, she would not have faced any disciplinary action. He would have been handed the pepper spray and warned the next time she showed up to school with it, she would be suspended or expelled.



She missed her senior year and had to do it with the County program for expelled students. No 4 year college for her, and that was where she was headed. She had to do two years minimum at the JC and hope the expulsion for pepper spray did not prevent a college from accepting her. It would have to be a private college. Because dad went ballistic, the case was turned over to the SRO and so she ended up with a juvie record.



This is why I am planning to leave this state. I can teach science in another state with fewer students, earn more money, and not deal with this BS. I cannot even protect my students from other students at school as it is right now.
Link to the video of you pulling the student off of the girl?
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  #48  
Old 03-20-2019, 8:17 AM
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Everything that you said sounds horrible. Where is this?
Stockton.
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  #49  
Old 03-20-2019, 9:21 AM
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In answer to the OP.

I have not seen or heard of such happening in recent times.......but...

I personally witnessed such happening after the first AW ban in 1989 of DOJ officers with CHP as muscle doing such checks at the range and detaining one fellow. That was well before all the new firearm form factors laughed at the stupid laws and made it really confusing for LE on what is legal and what was not. I heard the check was complaint driven by several members of the club complaining about visitors using the range with illegal weapons. It was the only time I used my AW letter to show....yes I can own this..... didn't go to that range for several years afterwards as it was an old mans range. Now that I too am an old man I have since returned and now see these rifles are common on the line-being used by old men like me.

Since then the letter has always been with me. But now its hard to shrink down since the letter has a page two to list it all.

Back then after the first ban there were several arrests for AW possession as the primary PC. The laws were pretty clear cut-there were no off list lowers, fixed magazine, or pregnant guppy fins. An officer was not concerned about wasting lots of time and ruining someone's life on something that gets dropped because the pregnant guppy fin made it a legal firearm-while the officer just thought it was some stupid bling added to the rifle.

As pointed out in the earlier posts I think this mass confusion on what is legal is discouraging attempts at enforcement by itself-only being used to meet a desired end result for another reason. What officer wants to look stupid in front of his co-workers because he did not understand the law he was enforcing, especially with a the activisim practiced by the courts against LE.

So to say it can't happen I would say no Virginia, it can happen. Just that you don't hear about such.

Having a governor with the perfect hair from chronic misuse of hair products for men, you never know. He will likely wait for another event to grandstand and make a Napoleonic decree! Hopefully it will be after another muslim attack where he once again grandstands before all the facts are in. (no, I am not hoping for another muslim attack-or any attack-but I liked the way it shutdown the gungrabbers when the facts got out).

Being a gun owner in California is similar to the stories you heard about being black in the south back in the 1920's. A gun goes bang.......lets round up all the law abiding gun owners....
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  #50  
Old 03-20-2019, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by jeremiah12 View Post
... This is why I am planning to leave this state. I can teach science in another state with fewer students, earn more money, and not deal with this BS. I cannot even protect my students from other students at school as it is right now.
Jeremiah - thanks (I think ) for taking the time to post - I really don't need anymore fuel for my cynicism bonfire

Your story and similar continue to convince me that it is worth the money and commitment to avoid public schooling in CA.
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  #51  
Old 03-20-2019, 11:09 AM
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Jeremiah - thanks (I think ) for taking the time to post - I really don't need anymore fuel for my cynicism bonfire



Your story and similar continue to convince me that it is worth the money and commitment to avoid public schooling in CA.
The school districts in San Diego operate far better. Don't assume that his district is normal.
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Old 03-20-2019, 12:51 PM
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In answer to the OP.
As pointed out in the earlier posts I think this mass confusion on what is legal is discouraging attempts at enforcement by itself-only being used to meet a desired end result for another reason. What officer wants to look stupid in front of his co-workers because he did not understand the law he was enforcing, especially with a the activisim practiced by the courts against LE.
I have always said that LE will not be capable of enforcing the current AW laws considering all of the different configurations that ARE legal:

Pre-2000 RAW with standard magazine release
BBRAW that retains the bullet button
Rimfire that looks like a AW and can even be as short as 28" (think bullpup)
Featureless that looks like a AW except for fin or custom grip.
Featureless with a Thordsen stock
Fixed magazine has all features of a AW but loads through ejection port.
Fixed magazine has all features of a AW but requires break open to drop magazine.

I have featureless w/Thordsen, BBRAW, and Fixed magazine AR-15 type rifles, a rimfire bullpup, and a couple fixed magazine AR pistols. I probably couldn't find a LEO that could tell me if or why all of them are legal or even which one of them is the RAW.
FAB-10 looks like a RAW with no magazine
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  #53  
Old 03-20-2019, 1:28 PM
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Apparently you should also worry about your fellow gun owners. A couple of threads have been posted on here asking what they should do when they see someone at the range shooting a non compliant rifle
The correct answer to that is mind your own dam business!
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  #54  
Old 03-20-2019, 7:05 PM
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The school districts in San Diego operate far better. Don't assume that his district is normal.
He is in Stockton. That explains much. It's a tough area.
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  #55  
Old 03-20-2019, 7:07 PM
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He is in Stockton. That explains much. It's a tough area.
Apparently not tough enough to just tell parents that the teacher did the right thing by stopping the fight.
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Old 03-20-2019, 8:05 PM
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Itís really based on your county and District Attorney. In Riverside County theyíre not interested in creating criminals out of people that lawfully purchased their firearm and is now unlawful as long as there isnít a slew of other charges to go along.
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