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Curio & Relic/Black Powder Curio & Relics and Black Powder Firearms, Old School shooting fun! |
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Curio and Relic details for 03FFL
Now that I have my C&R, do I have to get any more licenses from Ca before I can buy through the on-line auctions or places like SAMCO, Aim Surplus, Classic Arms, and such?
Last edited by jmlivingston; 03-26-2008 at 7:12 AM.. Reason: Changed title |
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Here is a short synopsis of the California regulations concerning C&R firearms and licenses:
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Nope. As Pthfndr said, make a crapload of copies because you will need it.
P.S. Don't max out your cards.
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"America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall." Quote:
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In practice, most people follow the 50-year rule, which excludes all handguns. However, this exemption has nothing to do with an FFL-03, beyond sharing part of the definition for relic status. By the strictest interpretation, one might conclude that a C&R license is completely worthless in California.
I’ve debated this issue myself, favoring a more liberal interpretation of the law. For example, I’ve been unable to locate specific language in the penal code prohibiting an FFL-03 holder from “importing” an eligible rifle less than 50 years old. The code is dense and difficult to read, so I could well be wrong. Thus most take the more conservative approach.
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Matthew D. Van Norman Dancing Giant Sales | Licensed Firearms Dealer | Rainier, WA |
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The fuzziness comes from what the Feds say qualifies as C&R (such as certain civilian and military models), and California law pertaining to firearms capable of being concealed on a person (Handguns). Those have to go through 01 FFLs, IIRC. Even when I was pointed out my errors a couple months ago the Federal/State law was mixed up. Unless you mean to tell me that having a rifle shipped to you that is 50+ years old from another state (or in-state) to you when you have an 03 FFL is a crime, or face-to-face transactions with the same rifle status as previously mentioned, I believe you are mistaken.
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"America is not at war. The Marine Corps is at war; America is at the mall." Quote:
Last edited by Dr. Peter Venkman; 10-23-2007 at 12:20 PM.. |
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Well, that’s the conclusion I would draw from EOD Guy’s interpretation. It took me a while to get my FFL-03, because I was afraid it would be useless.
Even if you assume the 50-year exemption applies to out-of-state sellers, it only covers infrequent transfers, if I recall correctly. Are AIM, SOG, and the CMP criminals, or am I the criminal for buying their stuff?
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Matthew D. Van Norman Dancing Giant Sales | Licensed Firearms Dealer | Rainier, WA Last edited by M. D. Van Norman; 10-23-2007 at 2:42 PM.. |
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No, one of the exceptions to the dealer transfer requirement is for C&R rifles and shotguns that are over 50 years old. Possession of a C&R FFL has no bearing on that exception. Also, both Federal and California law have the same definition for C&R firearms. California defers to the Federal law. |
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yes there is. It says so on the CA DOJ website. you dont need to go through a DEALER, you need to go through an FFL holder...a C&R license is an FFL license. You can only purchase C&R items this way, otherwise, what would be the point of having a C&R license if you had to go through a dealer? think before you post
__________________
Most civilization is based on cowardice. It's so easy to civilize by teaching cowardice. You water down the standards which would lead to bravery. You restrain the will. You regulate the appetites. You fence in the horizons. You make a law for every movement. You deny the existence of chaos. You teach even the children to breathe slowly. You tame. People Should Not Be Afraid Of Their Governments, Governments Should Be Afraid Of Their People ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |
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http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12070.php Quote:
You also might want to check your attitude at the door..... John |
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__________________
Most civilization is based on cowardice. It's so easy to civilize by teaching cowardice. You water down the standards which would lead to bravery. You restrain the will. You regulate the appetites. You fence in the horizons. You make a law for every movement. You deny the existence of chaos. You teach even the children to breathe slowly. You tame. People Should Not Be Afraid Of Their Governments, Governments Should Be Afraid Of Their People ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ |
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One other useful feature of an 03 FLL (C&R License) is that the holder can....with possession of a CA Certificate of Eligibility....avoid the one-handgun-purchase-every-30-days rule. Nice little side benefit. As for criminality, an 03 FFL may take delivery of any long gun deemed to be a Curio & Relic directly from an out-of-state source. This means an 03 FFL holder can purchase a rifle from Auction Arms and get it mailed direct to him as long as it's over 50 years old. No harm, no foul.
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NRA Life Member Tim & the gang Fort Courage Armory 1518-B Los Angeles Avenue Simi Valley, CA 93065 (805) 526-6563 www.fortcouragearmory.com |
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The 50 year long arm exception is applicable to anyone in California legally able to possess the firearm. A C&R FFL has nothing to do with it on either end of the transaction.
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But can’t the exemption be exploited only infrequently? I seem to recall a definition of less than 10 sales per year, but I don’t feel like sifting through the code again just yet. Now, that provision may be unenforceable against out-of-state dealers, but wasn’t the DOJ able to choke off the flow of C&R handguns with the threat of lawsuits?
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Matthew D. Van Norman Dancing Giant Sales | Licensed Firearms Dealer | Rainier, WA |
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So anyone legally able to possess a firearm can do cash & carry on a 50 year old or older long gun? I remember that was the case in the mid-90's but I thought that was changed?
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Here's the deal guys:
Any california resident (excluding 01 FFL dealers if the long gun in question is part of his dealer inventory) can transfer a 50+ year old long gun to another california resident without any paperwork, background check, DROS, etc. This means I can sell my 56 year old mosin to anyone in the state without going through a dealer. If you posses a 03 FFL, you can recieve 50+ long guns from out of state (mail order, internet, etc). The reason a person without a 03 FFL can not do this is federal law says you can't sell to residents of other states unless they have a FFL. If you posses a 03 FFL, you can purchase any C&R eligible firearm while outside of the state. (all state and local laws for wherever you're visiting must be followed, so this probably won't work in NY) As long as the firearm is legal to posses in CA, you can bring it home with you (ie: no assault weapons, SBRs, etc). If you're bringing a handgun home, you must send a form + $19 (per gun) to the DOJ. AS FOR SELLING STUFF: There is no "you can only sell XX number of firearms per year" restrictions whatsoever. However, if you have a 03 FFL, you may not engage in business. What does this mean? It's fuzzy. You are entitled to sell any of your guns, even at a profit. You just can't be making a living off buying and selling guns...
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so long as said is over 50 years old. and on the c & r list you can buy any pistol that is over 50 years old and on the c & r list out of state. and pay a tax along with a form to the doj here in ca. you get to keep the gun in your house, no 10 day wait. to buy any pistol here in ca, if over 50 years old and on the c&r list cash and carry applys, any long or short gun less than fifty years old, same old anti gun rules apply. black powerd guns, ie push down the tube style, no wait for any long or short gun. the true cash and carry. and all guns you buy using your c&r must be listed in you book. list who you bought it from and listed as to who you sold it to. |
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John |
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I AM LICENSED, I DO NOT "USE" MY LICENSE. you got the right idea. It's just a pet peeve of mine to hear people say they "use" their license....
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So to finally put this to bed for a non-C&R holder like me, I can sell a 50+ year old rifle to anyone inside Calif. w/o monkeying around w/ the DROS as long as that person can legally own guns. It's even better if that person is a C&R holder. Am I correct?
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does the CA Certificate of eligibility cover new handguns also
Does the CA Certificate of eligibility cover new handguns also, could i walk into a gun store and walk out with a new pistol same day
( yes i did search but nothing came up ) Quote:
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Thanx Dante' Objects in mirror are closers than they appear: DRIVE FASTER |
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Military surplus firearms can't be imported into the U.S. unless they are C&R firearms. So the fact importers were bringing them in back then means that they were C&R back then.
__________________
__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
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Only other thing to add, just because I haven't seen it mentioned here, is you still have to comply with all the Assault Weapon (AW) laws. So be careful of SKS's with grenade launchers, and AW features. John |
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http://www.calgunlaws.com/article-122.html
Page not found The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. Please try the following: If you typed the page address in the Address bar, make sure that it is spelled correctly. - Click the Back button in your browser to try another link. - Use a search engine like Google to look for information on the Internet. HTTP 404 - File not found HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!??????????????? I wanted to read this............. |
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Broken Link
From the home page: http://www.calgunlaws.com/ under “MODULES” (top left hand pane) , there is a heading: “TOPICS”, click there and then scroll down to “Antiques, Curios and Relics.” The “Memorandum of Law” is there, for some reason the actual links from this site don’t work to copy/paste any longer. The page with the actual DOJ approval letter isn’t indexed properly, but I’m sure if you contact them they will be happy to provide it to you, it is archived. They recently changed their website, and it is somewhat difficult to navigate on. It is also a Trutanich - Michel Lawfirm website.
Last edited by pdangeruss; 08-06-2008 at 2:13 AM.. Reason: error |
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Ok. In the mail today I found brown envelope with my FFL 03 forms in it to fill out. I requested them last Friday and today is Thursday. Amazing!
So on to my questions. I live within 1000 feet of a school in El Cajon(San Diego) any special hoops I will have to jump through? I will be purchasing mainly longarms. Are there any local laws that would prevent me from getting a 03? I am totally legal to own and purchase a longarm or handgun. Totally clean record. Thanks for the help!! Really looking forward to my CMP purchases I plan on! (Move this if it needs to please.) |
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I’m a 03 licensee have been for 15 years, welcome to collectors license.
Having a 03 license in California rather then lets say Texas is your restricted to purchase AWB, guns with grenade launchers and 03 handguns. Here’s the kicker, an 03 license along with a COE certificate is you can purchase more then one 03 handgun from gun shows outside California, once you arrive in California ya’ll need to pay $15.00 and you’re set to go. I attend the Las Vegas gun show and walked out with 03 qualified handguns without a hitch. Also defined C&R longguns like the SKS 59/66 even though Calif knows they are not 50+ years old, rifles like these without printed dates are a grey area but appear to be qualified rifles for C&R sales in California (Without grenade launcher) Just a footnote, most sellers outside California don’t care about our 03 handgun restriction, most of my friends buy them on line without a problem, your call on that one. If YOU are physically INSIDE California and buying an 03 handgun, it doesn’t have go through a 01 FFL dealer. 10 day waiting period doesn’t apply as long as you have BOTH a C&R license and a COE, you can also buy more then one 03 handgun. Last edited by Mark49; 10-21-2008 at 10:36 PM.. |
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__________________
__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
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100% correct, not sure what you're drinking tonight, but when you sober up do some research.... Not a flame "just need to get the facts"
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__________________
__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
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You seriously need to spend some time reviewing the applicable firearms law. Especially the 12070 stuff, it's available right here. John |
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I just want to clarify with the experts here. Most I read in this thread is either buying out of state or private party, but I might have missed what I was looking for. If I buy a C&R rifle (lets say a Mosin Nagant) from a local store/FFL, I take it that I still need to pay DROS and wait 10 days. I have C&R license but i dont have a COE.
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If you had the COE as well then you could skip the 10 day waiting period, but you'd still have to pay the DROS.
__________________
__________________ "Knowledge is power... For REAL!" - Jack Austin |
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