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  #441  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dscoduc View Post
From what I gathered from the various threads I am legally able to self-manufacture an off-roster pistol, but some reason I have to make the pistol a single shot instead of a semi-auto. Since I have to make it a single shot I can't ever convert said pistol into semi-auto.

Except, how does a self-manufactured straight-pull AR Pistol, with a barrel that has no gas port, and a 10 round detachable magazine plus one in the barrel (11 repeatable shots) differ in the slightest than the FA CA7 pistol? Calling it a 'repeater' doesn't magically make it different than an identically configured self-manufactured AR Pistol with the exact same config. Yes, FA CA7 is on the roster but I thought a self-manufactured pistol doesn't have to be on or comply with the roster. And, if a self-manufactured pistol doesn't have to meet roster safety requirements, why does it have to be built as a single shot instead of this magical 'repeater' name? If my self-manufactured AR Pistol matches feature for feature as the CA7 then why is mine called a single shot but the CA7 is a repeater?

Why are there still Glock and 1911 80%'ers being sold today in CA? Following your logic they would all have to be made as a single shot and could not ever legally be converted to semi-auto.

What about all those people to dros'd their pistols back in the SSE days? According to what is said here, all of those non-rostered pistols converted to semi-auto are now illegal as well... What a deep hole this is...

What is most telling to me is, aside from FA selling an AR Pistol with no gas port, that every time Franklin Armory was asked point blank if it's legal to convert their CA7 to semi-auto they either refused to respond or responded with vague comments about how it's up to you to interpret the laws. That seems extremely clear that FA has internally formed an opinion from their research and interaction with CA DOJ that providing its customers with an affirmative response is legally risky. That speaks volumes to me.

Even after all the comments in this thread these questions remain unanswered - which just goes to show how murky this whole thing is...
You miss the point entirely, and I can't tell if you're playing possum or you really can't figure this out!

Point 1 - The CA7 is on the Roster. This is unambiguous.

Point 2 - Franklin Armory is selling a product that is certified safe by the state of California. It has survived scrutiny by the lab.

Point 3 - If I recommend that you change the product, post purchase, then the state can use that against my company. That type of advice could be defined as "negligent entrustment," not because it resulted in an illegal configuration, but because it would be recommending a change of a certified safe product.

Point 4 - We previously had a different pistol approved by a state certified lab only to have the BOF deny the product's accessibility to the roster because we mentioned that out of state variants could use a detachable magazine. I could have sued the state (and probably won,) but I didn't have $50k sitting around to get that ball rolling. (I do now, and we are challenging the BOF on another matter currently.) I do not wish to provide the state any opportunity to exploit our legal commerce in firearms.
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  #442  
Old 01-08-2019, 11:55 AM
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Thank you for responding.

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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
You miss the point entirely, and I can't tell if you're playing possum or you really can't figure this out!
I am not playing possum for sure - just trying to stop the circular logic I keep reading...

Quote:
Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Point 1 - The CA7 is on the Roster. This is unambiguous.
I am confused about why you even went through the cost/effort to put this on roster. I don't mean to come across harsh, but many other FFL manufactures are selling a near identical configuration as yours (less the missing gas port) without going through the effort to put it on roster, and I am wondering why you guys made the effort/cost. Was it to avoid having your AR Pistol classified as a single-shot rifle and be able to classify it as this 'repeater' that people keep saying?

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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Point 2 - Franklin Armory is selling a product that is certified safe by the state of California. It has survived scrutiny by the lab.
Can you confirm that it would have been certified and survived the scrutiny if there was a gas port on the barrel? In other words, did the certification depend on making the CA7 into a configuration that couldn't 'easily' be converted to semi-auto configuration? Or did you just choose to certify the pistol without a gas port because it was cheaper, as some have speculated/suggested?

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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Point 3 - If I recommend that you change the product, post purchase, then the state can use that against my company. That type of advice could be defined as "negligent entrustment," not because it resulted in an illegal configuration, but because it would be recommending a change of a certified safe product.
This confuses me a little. Many firearm companies advertise and provide legal enhancements and options for pistols that are on the roster. How would your company be at any more risk for responding to upgrade/enhancement inquiries than say Glock responding to someone looking to change their barrel to a ported or threaded barrel?

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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Point 4 - We previously had a different pistol approved by a state certified lab only to have the BOF deny the product's accessibility to the roster because we mentioned that out of state variants could use a detachable magazine. I could have sued the state (and probably won,) but I didn't have $50k sitting around to get that ball rolling. (I do now, and we are challenging the BOF on another matter currently.) I do not wish to provide the state any opportunity to exploit our legal commerce in firearms.
I truly appreciate the work your company does with regards to the California firearms community, and wish you great success with challenging the state. Nothing in my previous questions have been an attempt to cause harm or put your product in question. In fact, I am really tempted to buy one, partly just to support your company. I would just like to feel comfortable that any modifications to the pistol will not put me in jeopardy with the CA DOJ.

Last edited by dscoduc; 01-08-2019 at 12:04 PM..
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  #443  
Old 01-08-2019, 12:28 PM
Mistadobalina_CA Mistadobalina_CA is offline
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I'm sure we have a few CA7 owners keeping an eye on this thread. Would one of you please start an owner's thread? I've been following this thread hoping to see some user reviews and gear porn. I'm not sure we're ever going to get clarity over what's being discussed here. Let's see them pistols!

PS - @FranklinArmory, please post a live fire and field strip video! I'll gladly volunteer my time to put a couple videos together if you want to send me an evaluation sample!

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  #444  
Old 01-08-2019, 1:07 PM
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dscoduc - I think you are missing the big picture here. FA has produced a legal product, nothing more. But their product has also opened a legal window for us to explore - at our own peril, as it were. What you (or I for that matter) want out of the FA7 is up to us to do our homework and decide what we are comfortable with. FA has their own battles to fight.
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  #445  
Old 01-08-2019, 1:28 PM
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Originally Posted by dscoduc View Post
Thank you for responding.


I am not playing possum for sure - just trying to stop the circular logic I keep reading...



I am confused about why you even went through the cost/effort to put this on roster. I don't mean to come across harsh, but many other FFL manufactures are selling a near identical configuration as yours (less the missing gas port) without going through the effort to put it on roster, and I am wondering why you guys made the effort/cost. Was it to avoid having your AR Pistol classified as a single-shot rifle and be able to classify it as this 'repeater' that people keep saying?

Can you confirm that it would have been certified and survived the scrutiny if there was a gas port on the barrel? In other words, did the certification depend on making the CA7 into a configuration that couldn't 'easily' be converted to semi-auto configuration? Or did you just choose to certify the pistol without a gas port because it was cheaper, as some have speculated/suggested?

This confuses me a little. Many firearm companies advertise and provide legal enhancements and options for pistols that are on the roster. How would your company be at any more risk for responding to upgrade/enhancement inquiries than say Glock responding to someone looking to change their barrel to a ported or threaded barrel?



I truly appreciate the work your company does with regards to the California firearms community, and wish you great success with challenging the state. Nothing in my previous questions have been an attempt to cause harm or put your product in question. In fact, I am really tempted to buy one, partly just to support your company. I would just like to feel comfortable that any modifications to the pistol will not put me in jeopardy with the CA DOJ.
Every time CADOJ makes a response about something, one way or the other, they are binding themselves into a box that will ultimately constrain their future actions and/or it will allow a future SCOTUS to bring the whole facade down. Getting a pistol on the roster is another definitive action that allows dealers, distributors, and consumers to know with certainty what is legal. This shouldn't be too confusing.

I cannot confirm any "what ifs" with CADOJ and their approval process. You are welcome to see what they say if you submit something. I can tell you that we believed that CADOJ might not approve it if it had a gas port and that is why we went the opposite direction. It ends up we were right.

The CA7 was approved as a bolt action repeater, and we believe that that was a superior place to be in the market due to the state certification. One could possibly submit a single shot pistol for testing. While that is old news, we proved that that was a legal process with the second SE-SSP submission. However, now that CADOJ has their warning information, I would not want to invest in that strategy. As a gunny, you have to admit that a bolt action repeater is superior to a single shot pistol, right?

While many companies in the industry provide upgraded Glock parts, Glock does not provide much in the way of enhancements on their Gen 3 pistols. They may have spare magazines, but they certainly are not marketing lightened slides, super light triggers, threaded barrels, etc. to California buyers.

I apologize for not giving you the answers that you want, but I simply can't provide that advice. I am not an attorney. The closest thing I can do is look at precedence. Thousands of Californians currently possess modified pistols. These modifications could include sights, magazines, grip panels, finish treatments, scalloping, etc. Are you aware of anyone getting cited or arrested for owning a modified firearm? I am not. However, that does not mean that the state couldn't (wrongly) decide to create a new enforcement objective.
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  #446  
Old 01-08-2019, 1:55 PM
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Thank you for the response, it makes sense.
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  #447  
Old 01-12-2019, 3:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quiet View Post
The Reformation meets CA's definition of an "unconventional pistol" [PC 17270]; which makes it illegal (felony) to make, import, transfer, or possess in CA [PC 31500].



Penal Code 17270
As used in this part, an “unconventional pistol” means a firearm with both of the following characteristics:
(a) It does not have a rifled bore.
(b) It has a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length or has an overall length of less than 26 inches.

Penal Code 31500
Except as provided in Chapter 1 (commencing with Section 17700) of Division 2 of Title 2, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any unconventional pistol is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or imprisonment pursuant to subdivision (h) of Section 1170.
But Section 17710 exempts AOWs from the unconventional pistol ban, as you noted in another thread just now. So why can't you get the Reformation, as designed and marketed without further modifications, with an AOW stamp in California?
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  #448  
Old 01-12-2019, 3:18 PM
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But Section 17710 exempts AOWs from the unconventional pistol ban, as you noted in another thread just now. So why can't you get the Reformation, as designed and marketed without further modifications, with an AOW stamp in California?
An AOW would be able to use our barrels. But, you could not put a stock on it.
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  #449  
Old 01-12-2019, 3:28 PM
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Why?
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  #450  
Old 01-12-2019, 3:43 PM
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Why?
It would cease to be an AOW and would be come an SBR.
The Can Cannon would not be an SBR because it lacks a rifled barrel.
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  #451  
Old 01-12-2019, 4:05 PM
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It would cease to be an AOW and would be come an SBR.
The Can Cannon would not be an SBR because it lacks a rifled barrel.
Neither does the Reformation. Straight lands-and-grooves mean its not rifled. That's the whole point of the straight lands-and-grooves. Otherwise, the Reformation would be a federal SBR as well.

PC 17170 defines SBR as:

As used in this part, “short-barreled rifle” means any of the following:

(a) A rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

(b) A rifle with an overall length of less than 26 inches.

(c) Any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if that weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

(d) Any device that may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge which, when so restored, is a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive.

(e) Any part, or combination of parts, designed and intended to convert a device into a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, or any combination of parts from which a device defined in subdivisions (a) to (c), inclusive, may be readily assembled if those parts are in the possession or under the control of the same person.



In other words, an SBR must be a rifle. A rifle must send a bullet through a rifled bore. While a rifled bore isn't defined anywhere, but the dictionary and conventional definition of a "rifled bore" is a bore with spiraled grooves, not straight lands and grooves.
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  #452  
Old 01-12-2019, 8:33 PM
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And other states, allow these guns not calling them "unsafe".

SCOTUS can easily strike down CA anti gun laws by simple questioning the definition of unsafe.
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  #453  
Old 01-13-2019, 12:48 PM
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And other states, allow these guns not calling them "unsafe".



SCOTUS can easily strike down CA anti gun laws by simple questioning the definition of unsafe.
The roster law suit is dead unless SCOTUS takes it on.... Right?

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  #454  
Old 01-13-2019, 6:24 PM
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My FFL received mine on Friday. 4 weeks after order! Sweet.
Was pleasantly surprised with the awesome case it came with.
Spent about 30 minutes going over the firearm and its build quality in my local store. It is a gorgeous piece. I am so thrilled I pick this up. Everything feels tight and nice the trigger is smooth. The Franklin's face on a bolt carrier group was also a nice addition. I will update when I get a chance to take her to the range.


To FA team. Big thanks!
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  #455  
Old 01-13-2019, 7:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr.patriot1776 View Post
My FFL received mine on Friday. 4 weeks after order! Sweet.
Was pleasantly surprised with the awesome case it came with.
Spent about 30 minutes going over the firearm and its build quality in my local store. It is a gorgeous piece. I am so thrilled I pick this up. Everything feels tight and nice the trigger is smooth. The Franklin's face on a bolt carrier group was also a nice addition. I will update when I get a chance to take her to the range.


To FA team. Big thanks!
I'll share your comments with the armorers on the shop floor tomorrow. Thanks!
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  #456  
Old 01-14-2019, 9:09 PM
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Is it possible to legally build a CA7 configured Pistol from a 80% and then Register it as a Bolt action repeater?
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  #457  
Old 01-15-2019, 5:27 AM
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Is it possible to legally build a CA7 configured Pistol from a 80% and then Register it as a Bolt action repeater?
Unfortunately no. It would lack certification as "not unsafe." Even non-semiautomatic firearms still require drop testing. ...except for single shot bolt or break actions.
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  #458  
Old 01-15-2019, 9:21 AM
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Originally Posted by franklinarmory View Post
Unfortunately no. It would lack certification as "not unsafe." Even non-semiautomatic firearms still require drop testing. ...except for single shot bolt or break actions.
After our lengthy previous discussion I finally came to terms why it was genius to roster the CA7 instead of just selling it as a Single Shot like other companies selling AR Pistols. In fact, FA appears to be the only company to consider the risks that purchasers would take if the AR Pistol was converted to a semi-auto action.

The key to my understanding was the verbiage in the CA PC that specifically includes "not on roster". Since the CA7 IS on roster than even if the DOJ tried to say you manufactured a semi-auto from the CA7 it wouldn't constitute an unsafe Handgun. AR Pistols purchased from other companies don't fall under the same exemption because their pistols didn't start out as a rostered pistol...

Genius really. What I can't figure out is why other companies don't take advantage of the presedence FA set and submit their AR Pistol to the CA DOJ as well... It's not like those companies don't know what will pass or not pass the safe firearm requirements...

Thank you Franklin Armory.
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Old 01-15-2019, 1:10 PM
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Counting down the days until I can go pick up my CA7
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  #460  
Old 01-15-2019, 2:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dscoduc View Post
After our lengthy previous discussion I finally came to terms why it was genius to roster the CA7 instead of just selling it as a Single Shot like other companies selling AR Pistols. In fact, FA appears to be the only company to consider the risks that purchasers would take if the AR Pistol was converted to a semi-auto action.

The key to my understanding was the verbiage in the CA PC that specifically includes "not on roster". Since the CA7 IS on roster than even if the DOJ tried to say you manufactured a semi-auto from the CA7 it wouldn't constitute an unsafe Handgun. AR Pistols purchased from other companies don't fall under the same exemption because their pistols didn't start out as a rostered pistol...

Genius really. What I can't figure out is why other companies don't take advantage of the presedence FA set and submit their AR Pistol to the CA DOJ as well... It's not like those companies don't know what will pass or not pass the safe firearm requirements...

Thank you Franklin Armory.
The reality is that they don't know how to pass the requirements, or even more likely, they have tried and failed. They will need to deploy a fair amount of time and capital into testing before they will have something that they know will work. It is not as easy as it seems. They will also need to avoid our patent pending designs along the way.
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  #461  
Old 01-15-2019, 2:20 PM
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Roster has to go...that's the main point (:-
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  #462  
Old 01-15-2019, 4:00 PM
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SWEET!!!!!
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  #463  
Old 01-15-2019, 5:23 PM
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Counting down the days until I can go pick up my CA7
I’m counting the days leaving California.
Worked in Silicon Valley from 1986 to current.
The great Tech Boom is over in CA and so am I.
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Old 01-15-2019, 5:42 PM
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Originally Posted by dscoduc View Post
After our lengthy previous discussion I finally came to terms why it was genius to roster the CA7 instead of just selling it as a Single Shot like other companies selling AR Pistols. In fact, FA appears to be the only company to consider the risks that purchasers would take if the AR Pistol was converted to a semi-auto action.

The key to my understanding was the verbiage in the CA PC that specifically includes "not on roster". Since the CA7 IS on roster than even if the DOJ tried to say you manufactured a semi-auto from the CA7 it wouldn't constitute an unsafe Handgun. AR Pistols purchased from other companies don't fall under the same exemption because their pistols didn't start out as a rostered pistol...

Genius really. What I can't figure out is why other companies don't take advantage of the presedence FA set and submit their AR Pistol to the CA DOJ as well... It's not like those companies don't know what will pass or not pass the safe firearm requirements...

Thank you Franklin Armory.
If you put an Apex trigger or zev slide in a stock gen 3 glock 19, it's no longer a not unsafe firearm. A gun store can no longer sell it.

I applaud what Franklin Armory is doing here and with other products but I don't see any regulatory or statutory basis for the notion that adding a gas tube to a rostered CA7 is any different than adding a CA7 to a roster exempt single shot bolt action an FFL07 built for you. In each case, you modify a not unsafe handgun into an unsafe one. Only question is whether manufacturing or not under 32000
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Old 01-15-2019, 6:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
If you put an Apex trigger or zev slide in a stock gen 3 glock 19, it's no longer a not unsafe firearm. A gun store can no longer sell it.



I applaud what Franklin Armory is doing here and with other products but I don't see any regulatory or statutory basis for the notion that adding a gas tube to a rostered CA7 is any different than adding a CA7 to a roster exempt single shot bolt action an FFL07 built for you. In each case, you modify a not unsafe handgun into an unsafe one. Only question is whether manufacturing or not under 32000
Can you just stop posting....

Please


This is starting to remind me of the gold cup thread

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Old 01-16-2019, 8:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
If you put an Apex trigger or zev slide in a stock gen 3 glock 19, it's no longer a not unsafe firearm. A gun store can no longer sell it.

I applaud what Franklin Armory is doing here and with other products but I don't see any regulatory or statutory basis for the notion that adding a gas tube to a rostered CA7 is any different than adding a CA7 to a roster exempt single shot bolt action an FFL07 built for you. In each case, you modify a not unsafe handgun into an unsafe one. Only question is whether manufacturing or not under 32000
A firearm on the CA Roster = 'not unsafe'. A dimensional compliant single-shot (regardless of who manufactures it) isn't 'not unsafe', its 'roster exempt'

In the past, there wasn't really much distinction between the two, but the laws changed a couple years ago resulting in the possibility that modifying a 'roster exempt' gun into a semi-automatic could be interpreted as illegal manufacturing of an unsafe handgun.

There aren't legal issues with modifying a 'not unsafe' handgun into non-roster status post-purchase.
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  #467  
Old 01-16-2019, 12:50 PM
bajadan bajadan is offline
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Franklin Armory - any plans to submit a CA7 for approval with an arm brace to help those with disabilities? thanks
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  #468  
Old 01-16-2019, 1:20 PM
Mistadobalina_CA Mistadobalina_CA is offline
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Franklin Armory - any plans to submit a CA7 for approval with an arm brace to help those with disabilities? thanks
Why would they have to? You're free to replace the tube that comes with it with a 3rd party brace.

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  #469  
Old 01-17-2019, 7:58 AM
marlin4622 marlin4622 is offline
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Just picked mine up yesterday. Thanks Franklin. Quality product with endless possibilities for customization. Alquist Arms in Turlock CA sells them for $839.


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Old 01-17-2019, 8:36 AM
Mistadobalina_CA Mistadobalina_CA is offline
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Just picked mine up yesterday. Thanks Franklin. Quality product with endless possibilities for customization. Alquist Arms in Turlock CA sells them for $839.


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Finally! A photo of one in the wild. Thank you!

How's the trigger? Do you have any desire to upgrade it? Or are you the type that typically leaves your firearms stock?

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  #471  
Old 01-17-2019, 1:30 PM
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Please poke some holes in my theory so i can go buy one lol, but this is my opinion. After doing a little research the answer to converting to semiauto is maybe. After reading the cadoj warning i realized they pointed us to the info PC 31900. If you put a standard upper on the ca7 i believe it violates 31900 because all rostered handguns post 2010 must have an lci, mag disconnect and microstamping. BUT if you had an upper that had those features i think we would be ok. Dont think it was a question of making it semiauto but making an unsafe semiauto lacking roster features. Someone please tell me im wrong
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  #472  
Old 01-17-2019, 1:42 PM
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waygeekierthanu waygeekierthanu is offline
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If you buy a Glock 19 Gen 3 and take the slide off and put another slide on is it illegal because that other slide does not have an LCI or magazine disconnect? No it is not. I don't see any difference here

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  #473  
Old 01-17-2019, 2:15 PM
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Gen 3 glocks are pre 2007 lci requirement. I think you run afoul if you do that to a post 2007 sig for example that required an lci and mag disconnect. I think the roster date is the key there.
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Old 01-17-2019, 2:31 PM
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If you buy a Glock 19 Gen 3 and take the slide off and put another slide on is it illegal because that other slide does not have an LCI or magazine disconnect? No it is not. I don't see any difference here

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That's the corner Franklin is trying to force DOJ into.
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Old 01-17-2019, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by DA1L0 View Post
Gen 3 glocks are pre 2007 lci requirement. I think you run afoul if you do that to a post 2007 sig for example that required an lci and mag disconnect. I think the roster date is the key there.
You can legally replace any slide, cerakote, trigger or stippling to any pistol (roster or off-roster). Don't overthink it. You are not manufacturing anything if you do not have a manufacturer's license.
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  #476  
Old 01-17-2019, 4:55 PM
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$839....my lgs not that generous.... Anybody else getting these for less than retail?

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  #477  
Old 01-17-2019, 6:56 PM
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$839....my lgs not that generous.... Anybody else getting these for less than retail?

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No kidding that’s a great price!
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  #478  
Old 01-18-2019, 7:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DA1L0 View Post
Please poke some holes in my theory so i can go buy one lol, but this is my opinion. After doing a little research the answer to converting to semiauto is maybe. After reading the cadoj warning i realized they pointed us to the info PC 31900. If you put a standard upper on the ca7 i believe it violates 31900 because all rostered handguns post 2010 must have an lci, mag disconnect and microstamping. BUT if you had an upper that had those features i think we would be ok. Dont think it was a question of making it semiauto but making an unsafe semiauto lacking roster features. Someone please tell me im wrong
To appreciate the absurdity in that, consider modifications made to semiautomatic handguns acquired using a roster exemption other than single shot (e.g. PPT of a handgun originally purchased before 2000 or interstate intra-familial gift.)

What happens when I put a 9L CORE slide assembly on my M&P9?

Narrator: “Nothing. Nothing happens.”
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  #479  
Old 01-18-2019, 8:07 AM
xaznperswaesonx xaznperswaesonx is offline
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Got mines at $940.

Am I the only only one who thinks the finish qaulity is subpar? To me, it scream budget build. Pulling the charging handle, it's not smooth at all. Trigger is standard with a heavier pull bc they used a heavier spring for drop safe reason per FA. The lower and upper is what appears as your standard off the shelf parts.

The box it came with is ummm .. quite large for it. You can fit 3 of this pistol in the box.


What you're really paying for is the work FA spent on getting it on the roster, which I'm perfectly fine and happy with.

Last edited by xaznperswaesonx; 01-18-2019 at 8:09 AM..
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  #480  
Old 01-18-2019, 8:07 AM
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Originally Posted by xaznperswaesonx View Post
Got mines at $940. Am I the only only one who thinks the finish qaulity is subpar? Pulling the charging handle, it's not smooth at all. Trigger is standard with a heavier pull bc they used a heavier spring for drop safe reason per FA. To me, it scream budget build. You're really paying for the work FA spent on getting it on the roster, which I'm perfectly fine with. The lower and upper is what appears as your standard off the shelf parts.

The box it came with is ummm .. quite large for it. You can fit 3 of this pistol in the box.
I put a little bit of CLP on mine and it's moved up nicely. As for the box it makes sense they sell rifles primarily this was just a Hail Mary to get another pistol on the roster. Overall I'm actually pretty happy with the builds I have here. Remember this isn't a LaRue

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