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Centerfire Rifles - Semiautomatic or Gas Operated Centerfire rifles, carbines and other gas operated rifles.

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2018, 10:41 AM
Toamaius Toamaius is offline
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Default Best California AR-15 Option 2018+

Hey guys, I just wanted to share a video I shared on YouTube of a California compliant option to avoid registration or modification of your rifle where it no longer looks or functions as an ar-15. This is for folks who want a fast magazine change, keep bolt catch/last round bolt hold open and easily address type 3 malfunction. This will allow you to keep your ar15 looking like an ar15 and be 100% compliant with the law 2018 and beyond. Here is the link,

https://youtu.be/omWvvQd6k4M

Feel free to leave comment any questions/concerns you might have or reply here on the forum.
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  #2  
Old 07-11-2018, 11:03 AM
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Don't have time to watch the video, but if it allows even one shot to be fired with the action cracked open (which the ARMaglock does, I believe, based on its forum rep's admission), it's in an extremely gray area based on the definition of fixed mag in the regs, and discussed at length in other threads.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:15 AM
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At 2:40 is a huge FUD. you absolutely can fire the weapon when its "cracked open"
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:34 AM
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Everything is a "gray area" in California...
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:49 PM
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There are several devices available to make a BB AR 15 a "fixed magazine" rifle. Some better than others

There are gun makers who install a "fixed mag" device on their otherwise "full feature" AR15 you can buy and have shipped to a FFL in CA

like this one for example

https://www.turners.com/daniel-defen...56-nato-453119

Gun stores and ranges also sell and install these devices
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by JDW67 View Post
Everything is a "gray area" in California...
50 shades of grey
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Old 07-11-2018, 2:46 PM
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Being able to have a real mag release button is worth all this over a bullet button release.

50 Shades of Grey is exactly where we are--nobody really knows what is legal until people go to trial, maybe appeal.

Meanwhile, I have a spiel memorized if I am stopped and questioned, trying to explain the legality of my equipment with the best foot forward. Getting a citation or worse could be the end of a person's gun rights.
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Old 07-11-2018, 2:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
Meanwhile, I have a spiel memorized if I am stopped and questioned, trying to explain the legality of my equipment with the best foot forward. Getting a citation or worse could be the end of a person's gun rights.
Unless that spiel is "I wish to invoke my constitutional right to counsel, and will not answer questions outside his presence," you're putting yourself in jeopardy.

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Old 07-11-2018, 2:52 PM
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Directly from the regulations, and the reason why the gun being able to fire and change mag is problematic. It doesn't matter if you think the gun is a single shot.

Quote:
(b) “Action” means the working mechanism of a semiautomatic firearm, which is the combination of the receiver or frame and breech bolt together with the other parts of the mechanism by which a firearm is loaded, fired, and unloaded.
Quote:
(n)
Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
Quote:
(hh) “Semiautomatic” means a firearm functionally able to fire a single cartridge, eject the empty case, and reload the chamber each time the trigger is pulled and released. Further, certain necessary mechanical parts that will allow a firearm to function in a semiautomatic nature must be present for a weapon to be deemed semiautomatic. A weapon clearly designed to be semiautomatic but lacking a firing pin, bolt carrier, gas tube, or some other crucial part of the firearm is not semiautomatic for purposes of Penal Code sections 30515, 30600, 30605(a), and 30900.
  1. A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm merely lacking ammunition and a proper magazine is a semiautomatic firearm.
  2. A mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm disabled by a gun lock or other firearm safety device is a semiautomatic firearm. (All necessary parts are present, once the gun lock or firearm safety device is removed, and weapon can be loaded with a magazine and proper ammunition.)
  3. With regards to an AR-15 style firearm, if a complete upper receiver and a complete lower receiver are completely detached from one another, but still in the possession or under the custody or control of the same person, the firearm is not a semiautomatic firearm.
  4. A stripped AR-15 lower receiver, when sold at a California gun store, is not a semiautomatic firearm. (The action type, among other things, is undetermined.)
Everything that makes the gun semi-automatic is present with any of these limited opening take-down pins. It is a mechanically whole semiautomatic firearm and the regulations make it extremely clear when it is not a mechanically whole semi-automatic. Being able to fire when in the open position is extremely problematic.

Last edited by tonyxcom; 07-11-2018 at 2:57 PM..
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  #10  
Old 07-11-2018, 2:53 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyxcom View Post
Directly from the regulations, and the reason why the gun being able to fire and change mag is problematic. It doesn't matter if you think the gun is a single shot.
You have more patience for this than I do, hat's off to you.
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Old 07-11-2018, 2:59 PM
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I'm a late starter to this debate, so I've got plenty of fuel in the tank.
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Old 07-11-2018, 3:22 PM
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I want to know who the first will be to show that the rifle can or cannot be fired with the limited break open pins, and quantify the distance required to disconnect the action from the fire control?

I don't have a dog in this show but it might be dangerously entertaining.
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Old 07-11-2018, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mshill View Post
I want to know who the first will be to show that the rifle can or cannot be fired with the limited break open pins, and quantify the distance required to disconnect the action from the fire control?

I don't have a dog in this show but it might be dangerously entertaining.
Protohyp admitted that's the case with the ARMAGLOCK/Kingpin combo. He knows his product, so I'll take the admission against self-interest at face value.
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Old 07-19-2018, 6:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
Don't have time to watch the video, but if it allows even one shot to be fired with the action cracked open (which the ARMaglock does, I believe, based on its forum rep's admission), it's in an extremely gray area based on the definition of fixed mag in the regs, and discussed at length in other threads.
Just to clarify, the Juggernaut Tactical Hellfighter Mod Kit(JTHMK) rear takedown pin combined with Hogue Freedom Fighter fixed magazine solution, does make this rifle legal. When the rifle is fully assembled, (both receiver are closed shut and pinned), it is a fixed magazine semi-automatic rifle.

When action is partially open, it no longer is a semi-automatic. Bolt is locked forward, action cannot be worked, if the rifle did fire it would do so in a single shot mode. The action cannot cycle or function as a semi-automatic. Bolt actions and single shots are not what CA DoJ calls an "assault weapon"
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Old 07-19-2018, 6:26 AM
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
At 2:40 is a huge FUD. you absolutely can fire the weapon when its "cracked open"
Yeah, I misspoke. When I said, "the rifle is disassembled, and cannot fire" What I meant was, the rifle cannot fire in a semi-automatic configuration. Rifle action is interrupted and no longer fits the description as a semi-automatic. If the weapon does fire it would do so in a single shot/bolt action configuration and does not meet the standard for a semi-automatic. It also does not meet the standard an assembled rifle. Rifle cannot be considered fully assembled until both receivers are closed shut and pinned closed. While rifle is assembled it is a fixed magazine.
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Old 07-19-2018, 6:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDW67 View Post
Everything is a "gray area" in California...
No "gray area" or "loophole" this is 100% within the law and abides with it.

When rifle is fully assembled it is in a fixed magazine configuration.

When rifle is partially disassembled, it is in a single shot bolt action configuration. The rifle cannot fire in a semi-automatic mode. The action is locked forward, action cannot be worked. If weapon fired it would do so in a single shot/bolt action configuration.
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Old 07-19-2018, 6:44 AM
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Originally Posted by 4GLOCK30 View Post
There are several devices available to make a BB AR 15 a "fixed magazine" rifle. Some better than others

There are gun makers who install a "fixed mag" device on their otherwise "full feature" AR15 you can buy and have shipped to a FFL in CA

like this one for example

https://www.turners.com/daniel-defen...56-nato-453119

Gun stores and ranges also sell and install these devices
I am not a fan of the complete Juggernaut Tactical Hellfighter Mod Kit. It uses a bolt catch style fixed magazine solution. If used complete you lose your bolt catch and last round hold open.

Another issue, modern magazines like Magpul, Hexmag, Ultimag and most GI mags will hold the bolt back regardless of there being a bolt catch or not. When this happens, you have to push follower down to send bolt home to allow you to reload. Another way is to push out your front pin and separate receivers enough to drop mag. This is timely compared to just sending bolt home with bolt catch on last round hold open.

You can use a dremel to modify your existing magazines, however their reliability might become compromised. If you use this set up, I recommend just buying magazines that will not hold bolt back on last round and have a ramped follower.
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  #18  
Old 07-19-2018, 6:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Califpatriot View Post
50 shades of grey
Nope there is absolutely no gray/grey area with this setup. As I replied to similar comments above.

No "loophole" no "circumventing" no nothing....
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  #19  
Old 07-19-2018, 7:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Toamaius View Post
I am not a fan of the complete Juggernaut Tactical Hellfighter Mod Kit. It uses a bolt catch style fixed magazine solution. If used complete you lose your bolt catch and last round hold open.
I don't understand people's fascination with keeping the bolt hold back with a fixed magazine solution. To me, it serves no purpose since you still have to drop the BCG before separating the upper to change mags so whats the point... if anything, its an extra step.
Yes it might come handy to clear a jam but removing the front pin to clear is just as viable.
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Old 07-19-2018, 7:28 AM
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Originally Posted by 4GLOCK30 View Post
There are several devices available to make a BB AR 15 a "fixed magazine" rifle. Some better than others

There are gun makers who install a "fixed mag" device on their otherwise "full feature" AR15 you can buy and have shipped to a FFL in CA

like this one for example

https://www.turners.com/daniel-defen...56-nato-453119

Gun stores and ranges also sell and install these devices
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toamaius View Post
I am not a fan of the complete Juggernaut Tactical Hellfighter Mod Kit. It uses a bolt catch style fixed magazine solution. If used complete you lose your bolt catch and last round hold open.

Another issue, modern magazines like Magpul, Hexmag, Ultimag and most GI mags will hold the bolt back regardless of there being a bolt catch or not. When this happens, you have to push follower down to send bolt home to allow you to reload. Another way is to push out your front pin and separate receivers enough to drop mag. This is timely compared to just sending bolt home with bolt catch on last round hold open.

You can use a dremel to modify your existing magazines, however their reliability might become compromised. If you use this set up, I recommend just buying magazines that will not hold bolt back on last round and have a ramped follower.
^^^????

Not sure why you quoted my post...I did not mention the "Juggernaut" device....or modifying any magazines. IMHO the juggernaut Tactical Hellfighter device is not what I would use for the reason you mention as it removes the forward bolt release to mount its mag lock portion

The DD AR I noted in the link in my post used the ARMaglock device


I agree that installing a "fixed magazine" device does comply in making what was a BBAW a non assault weapon thus not requiring to be registered as an "assault weapon"

I reference the following text:

California Code of Regulations
Title 11, Division 5
Chapter 39 Assault Weapons and Large-Capacity Magazines

Any person who, from January 1, 2001, to December 31, 2016, inclusive, lawfully possessed an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined in Penal Code section 30515, including those weapons with an ammunition feeding device that can be readily removed from the firearm with the use of a tool (commonly referred to as a bullet-button weapon) must register the firearm before July 1, 2018.

(a) Except as provided in section 5472, an assault weapon that does not have a fixed magazine, as defined by Penal Code section 30515, must be registered with the Department before July 1, 2018.

(p) “Fixed magazine” means an ammunition feeding device contained in, or permanently attached to, a firearm in such a manner that the device cannot be removed without disassembly of the firearm action.

(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed


§ 5472. Registration of Assault Weapons Pursuant to Penal Code Section 30900(b)(1); Weapons That Will Not Be Registered as Assault Weapons.

(d) The Department will not register a firearm as an assault weapon if the firearm has a fixed magazine that holds ten rounds or less.
This database is current through 6/29/18 Register 2018, No. 26
11 CCR § 5472, 11 CA ADC § 5472
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  #21  
Old 07-19-2018, 8:05 AM
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
I don't understand people's fascination with keeping the bolt hold back with a fixed magazine solution. To me, it serves no purpose since you still have to drop the BCG before separating the upper to change mags so whats the point... if anything, its an extra step.
Yes it might come handy to clear a jam but removing the front pin to clear is just as viable.
I totally agree with this guy..
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Old 07-19-2018, 8:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unbekannt View Post
Being able to have a real mag release button is worth all this over a bullet button release.

50 Shades of Grey is exactly where we are--nobody really knows what is legal until people go to trial, maybe appeal.

Meanwhile, I have a spiel memorized if I am stopped and questioned, trying to explain the legality of my equipment with the best foot forward. Getting a citation or worse could be the end of a person's gun rights.
No, nothing like that. I the simplest terms I can explain,

When rifle is assembled, meaning receiver are closed and pins locked and rifle functions as a semi-automatic, rifle is 100% fixed magazine.

When rifle receivers are separated, rifle is no longer in a semi-automatic configuration. Rifle action cannot be worked, bolt carrier group assembly is locked forward. If weapon was to be fired it would be in a single shot/bolt action configuration that cannot meet the definition of a semi-automatic rifle or a so called "assault weapon"
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Old 07-19-2018, 9:37 AM
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Here we go again
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Old 07-19-2018, 5:40 PM
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Guys.... all due respect, but learn a little about the subject of firearms. Some of you sound like sound like you just heard what a gun was about a month ago...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-shot
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Old 07-21-2018, 1:57 PM
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Originally Posted by guest1 View Post
I don't understand people's fascination with keeping the bolt hold back with a fixed magazine solution. To me, it serves no purpose since you still have to drop the BCG before separating the upper to change mags so whats the point... if anything, its an extra step.
Yes it might come handy to clear a jam but removing the front pin to clear is just as viable.
I rather train and build the muscle memory and without thinking abournit, send bolt home before dropping the magazine. Even though this is an extra step, it is 10× faster than pushing out front pivot pin.

By having a bolt catch, the only time you need to mess with front pivot pin is during double feed or similar stoppage.

Of course, like I said before. There are special magazines that have a ramped follower that will not snag the bolt and will allow bolt to ride over it similar to an aka style weapon. I myself want to be able to use any magazine and have it work every and be consistent.

ASC(Ammunition Storage Components) makes such magazines it is an orange follower and usually in their stainless steel mags.
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Old 07-21-2018, 2:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Ki6vsm View Post
Guys.... all due respect, but learn a little about the subject of firearms. Some of you sound like sound like you just heard what a gun was about a month ago...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-shot
Wiki isn't a real source lol
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Old 07-22-2018, 5:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Toamaius View Post
I rather train and build the muscle memory and without thinking abournit, send bolt home before dropping the magazine. Even though this is an extra step, it is 10× faster than pushing out front pivot pin.

By having a bolt catch, the only time you need to mess with front pivot pin is during double feed or similar stoppage.
Not sure what you're talking about in bold above.
And your last statement is the point I was making.
Please re-read what I wrote.
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Old 07-22-2018, 5:53 AM
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Wiki isn't a real source lol
Happens to be correct in this case obviously. It's just written so as to make it easy for you guys to comprehend.
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:04 AM
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Like watching grass grow, I stopped watching after 2 1/2 minutes of no meat on the bone...
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Old 07-22-2018, 10:42 AM
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Default Best California AR-15 Option 2018+

I actually found the best option. A thousand times better than anything mentioned in this thread.

I left California.
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Old 07-25-2018, 9:34 AM
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Not sure what you're talking about in bold above.
And your last statement is the point I was making.
Please re-read what I wrote.
How I read it was, you are making a point that, complete use of Juggernaut Tactical Helldighter Mod Kit is a better option than having a bolt catch. I made the point that special magazines are required or existing magazines modified. You said using front pivot pin is a via letter option.

What I meant was that having a bolt catch and sending bolt home after last round hold open, is 10x faster than dropping jammed magazine after firing last shot.

The only time my setup touches a front pin is during a double feed type malfunction.
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Old 07-25-2018, 9:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toamaius View Post
How I read it was, you are making a point that, complete use of Juggernaut Tactical Helldighter Mod Kit is a better option than having a bolt catch. I made the point that special magazines are required or existing magazines modified. You said using front pivot pin is a via letter option.

What I meant was that having a bolt catch and sending bolt home after last round hold open, is 10x faster than dropping jammed magazine after firing last shot.

The only time my setup touches a front pin is during a double feed type malfunction.
My "need for a bolt catch" comment was in general and not specific for the JT setup. 90% of the time, the bolt by the shear force of the buffer spring forces the follower to drop on its way forward after the last round. You do not need special magazines at all. The Pmag is the other 10% that requires a slight grinding on the tail end of the follower which doesn't effect function but will allow the bolt to go home when empty from my experience... its no big deal. The mention of the front pin is ONLY for clearing a jam which is once in a while; you don't need to touch the front pin for anything else unless you plan to completely separated the upper.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:30 AM
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Best option is going to be highly subjective. Everyone has their own ideas of what they want, or want to work with. It is a bit of "pick your poison" in California right now. The featureless rifle, with finned pistol grip and ambidextrous safety is a strong contender for many. The grip is awkward but the trade off is a normally functioning magazine release, bolt catch/release and smooth, trouble free magazine changes. I've had a chance to work with the other options and they are all doable, but not nearly as intuitive and fast to reload as a featureless. The fin style pistol grip does suck for ergonomics. And of course, capitalism being the great innovator it is, something better will come along soon enough.
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Old 07-25-2018, 10:34 AM
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Have you guys seen this?
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s....php?t=1442734
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Old 07-25-2018, 11:00 AM
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I just disassembled all my stuff. I will reassemble it when I leave California in a few years. I'm not playing those games and jumping through hoops.
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Old 07-25-2018, 5:54 PM
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Wiki isn't a real source lol
It's funny how online strangers of unknown knowledge levels will criticize wikipedia because the articles are written by...online strangers of unknown knowledge levels.
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Old 07-25-2018, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by BigPimping View Post
I just disassembled all my stuff. I will reassemble it when I leave California in a few years. I'm not playing those games and jumping through hoops.
Smart move. Where you moving to?
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  #38  
Old 07-26-2018, 10:16 AM
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Big Kahuna Big Kahuna is offline
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Originally Posted by 4GLOCK30 View Post
(n) “Disassembly of the firearm action” means the fire control assembly is detached from the action in such a way that the action has been interrupted and will not function. For example, disassembling the action on a two part receiver, like that on an AR-15 style firearm, would require the rear take down pin to be removed, the upper receiver lifted upwards and away from the lower receiver using the front pivot pin as the fulcrum, before the magazine may be removed.
This is the main reason why I won't use the Juggernaut Hellfighter or other similar options that only crack open the upper without removing the pin. In my county, the LEOs don't care much about enforcing the new laws, but in an effort to conform to the latest legislation I have chosen the standard AR MAGLOCK Gen 1 utilizing a extended rear take down pin that must be fully removed in order to drop the magazine,
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Old 07-26-2018, 11:05 AM
4GLOCK30 4GLOCK30 is offline
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Originally Posted by Big Kahuna View Post
This is the main reason why I won't use the Juggernaut Hellfighter or other similar options that only crack open the upper without removing the pin. In my county, the LEOs don't care much about enforcing the new laws, but in an effort to conform to the latest legislation I have chosen the standard AR MAGLOCK Gen 1 utilizing a extended rear take down pin that must be fully removed in order to drop the magazine,
There will no doubt be legal challenges as to what constitutes "disabled action" and if various devices with limited release feature are in fact in compliance.

Certainly a device that uses a rear takedown pin that releases the upper completely seems to be a "safe" assumption of compliance now.

ARMaglock now has a Hyper Switch rear take down pin that completely releases the upper from lower by just a thumb flip of a lever.

I am not aware of any circumstance where a limited release device has been the issue of citation, confiscation or otherwise by using one form or another of a limited release rear take down pin. The Kingpin for example can be completely removed if needed to allow the upper to completely flop open. Just as the ARMaglock Gen 2 with dual position rear take down pin.


Just like when CA allowed "AR" platform guns to be sold after a complete ban but those versions needed a BB (tool had to be used to eject mag) within 5 seconds on the internet you could buy a magnetic button to go over them so you would then otherwise have a "normal" AR. It took several years later (now) for the "politicians" to ban those and again within minutes there were various devices to alter the AR so it didn't have to be registered as a "assault weapon"

Needless to say....more litigation to come.
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