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2nd Amend. Litigation Updates & Legal Discussion Discuss California 2A related litigation and legal topics here. All advice given is NOT legal counsel.

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  #3601  
Old 06-15-2020, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Foothills View Post
Watching the news, it certainly seems like some things have been happening. Every store is sold out of everything. The intervening circumstances would seem to be that the roster prevents Californian's from buying anything during a time like this when other states are not so encumbered.

I'm not sure how to reach counsel for Pena, but the current empty inventory would seem to be ripe for including in a request for rehearing as "intervening circumstances." My guess is that a Covid-19 pandemic and civil unrest were not included in their original briefs. But that should be included now. Californians COULD order online and have these items delivered to a California FFL for a background check. The roster is what is standing in their way of defending themselves when the police refuse to do so.
It would certainly be worth the effort to file given the state of things - the 2A rights of Californians have certainly been infringed under the CURRENT state of things with CV-19 and riots and looting. None of that was present when this case was filed, or in most of the intervening 11 years.

Arguably grounds for at least attempting to get a re-hearing, toss in how due to the ridiculous restrictions access to firearms has become nearly impossible at a time when the right to self defense is reasonably at the forefront of the public mind. Toss in how Californians are effectively being turned into 3rd world communist country conditions with NO access to "modern firearms".

I know it's rare for rehearings to be granted, but in this case the volatile and rapidly changing landscape would be more than a reasonable reason to at least take the flyer, nothing ventured, nothing gained!!!

For the SCOTUS to have failed to address this clear cut Constitutional issue for the large number of Californians (and now the rest of the country who will be slowly strangled as Dem-wits rush in to consolidate this win) is an inexcusable dereliction of duty. It's time they are called on the carpet with a demand for rehearing, made loudly public instead of hiding in the shadows hoping for a "win".
  #3602  
Old 06-16-2020, 2:49 AM
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This has been the operating theory for some years now. First the problem was Kennedy, now it's Roberts. Let's hope there's nobody else in line behind those two, and that Trump wins re-election, and that we control the Senate, and that RBG / Breyer decide to retire tomorrow.

Gorsuch has been proven to be a disappointment so far. We just can't catch a break.
  #3603  
Old 06-16-2020, 6:59 AM
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So are all these cases now dead? Or do they sit and wait for next year?
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  #3604  
Old 06-16-2020, 7:06 AM
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Dead
  #3605  
Old 06-16-2020, 8:06 AM
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So are all these cases now dead? Or do they sit and wait for next year?
Those cases are dead, Rodriguez is next. Our only concern at this point is hoping Trump wins in November, the Republicans keep the Senate, and any one of Roberts, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, or Kagan passes on so we can replace them for someone who actually cares about the constitution.
  #3606  
Old 06-16-2020, 8:13 AM
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The roster case should've been a slam dunk for the SCOTUS. It's simple, California is breaking the decision made in the Heller case. SCOTUS said that manufacturers will not and should not be required to modify firearms to meet a states requirement. Everything about the roster is a direct opposite of that ruling.
  #3607  
Old 06-16-2020, 11:08 AM
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Those cases are dead, Rodriguez is next. Our only concern at this point is hoping Trump wins in November, the Republicans keep the Senate, and any one of Roberts, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, or Kagan passes on so we can replace them for someone who actually cares about the constitution.
Lot of concerns.
  #3608  
Old 06-16-2020, 3:23 PM
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Those cases are dead, Rodriguez is next. Our only concern at this point is hoping Trump wins in November, the Republicans keep the Senate, and any one of Roberts, Ginsburg, Breyer, Sotomayor, or Kagan passes on so we can replace them for someone who actually cares about the constitution.
Trump and the Republicans are limp noodles on the 2A. They don't care about it, they don't care about our 2A rights, it's simply a campaign slogan for them to gain votes. None of their actions ever matches with their campaign rhetoric.
  #3609  
Old 06-16-2020, 4:25 PM
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Lot of concerns.
Welcome to 2010, we're right back where we started from after McDonald
  #3610  
Old 06-16-2020, 4:27 PM
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Trump and the Republicans are limp noodles on the 2A. They don't care about it, they don't care about our 2A rights, it's simply a campaign slogan for them to gain votes. None of their actions ever matches with their campaign rhetoric.
Yes they are but their choice to default to federalist society judges is our last best hope for long term change, turning the supreme court conservative again is the top reason to vote R in November same as it was in 2016

if we lose Biden could replace up to 3 justices with Ginsburg, Breyer, and Thomas starting to show their age
  #3611  
Old 06-16-2020, 4:44 PM
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Trump and the Republicans are limp noodles on the 2A. They don't care about it, they don't care about our 2A rights, it's simply a campaign slogan for them to gain votes. None of their actions ever matches with their campaign rhetoric.
That type of thinking and rhetoric is EXACTLY how the dems lost in 2016. They got complacent/disillusioned, and stayed home. Gun rights across the nation, with the exception of 8 blue socialist states have expanded greatly since 1994. Now is not the time to hang our heads and cry about it. If the R's DON'T win, you can forget about having to buy off roster guns and make rifles featureless, because the Dems will absolutely be coming for them. Biden and O'Dummy made that clear.
  #3612  
Old 06-16-2020, 4:59 PM
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That type of thinking and rhetoric is EXACTLY how the dems lost in 2016. They got complacent/disillusioned, and stayed home. Gun rights across the nation, with the exception of 8 blue socialist states have expanded greatly since 1994. Now is not the time to hang our heads and cry about it. If the R's DON'T win, you can forget about having to buy off roster guns and make rifles featureless, because the Dems will absolutely be coming for them. Biden and O'Dummy made that clear.
Trump has enacted more gun control than Obama ever did (not an Obama supporter, but this take is cold).

Trump and the Republicans had two years to make good on their promises to strengthen and expand 2A rights at the federal level and they didn't do anything.

Local and state governments operate differently, at the federal level, Republicans are absolutely worthless on the 2A.
  #3613  
Old 06-16-2020, 5:20 PM
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The 2A is federal and therefore only federal law should apply so, why do the states and local government have any say in this?
  #3614  
Old 06-16-2020, 6:06 PM
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Originally Posted by varanidguy View Post
Trump has enacted more gun control than Obama ever did (not an Obama supporter, but this take is cold).

Trump and the Republicans had two years to make good on their promises to strengthen and expand 2A rights at the federal level and they didn't do anything.

Local and state governments operate differently, at the federal level, Republicans are absolutely worthless on the 2A.
True, R's have been absolutely worthless on the 2A. However, that seems to ignore that the other alternative isn't working to absolutely trying to dismantle 2A (and other amendments). I consider a vote for the Republicans as more or less the status quo -- so basically nothing much happens. I consider a vote for the Dems (or throwing away your vote with 3rd party) as actively taking a chainsaw to the 2A (and the 1A and 4A and the 5A). I rather have nothing gained nothing ventured instead of shredding the constitution.
  #3615  
Old 06-16-2020, 7:07 PM
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The 2A is federal and therefore only federal law should apply so, why do the states and local government have any say in this?
The 2A is the red-headed unwanted stepchild of civil rights. Demonstrated by the lack of any action by SCOTUS, and very little action by the lower courts. Both parties at large don't care for it, and many don't even want it to exist.

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Originally Posted by godofgamblers View Post
True, R's have been absolutely worthless on the 2A. However, that seems to ignore that the other alternative isn't working to absolutely trying to dismantle 2A (and other amendments). I consider a vote for the Republicans as more or less the status quo -- so basically nothing much happens. I consider a vote for the Dems (or throwing away your vote with 3rd party) as actively taking a chainsaw to the 2A (and the 1A and 4A and the 5A). I rather have nothing gained nothing ventured instead of shredding the constitution.
It's funny, if everyone who said voting 3rd party is "throwing your vote away" actually did it, a 3rd party would win or at least gain significant enough ground to become viable. Remember, Lincoln was 3rd party.
  #3616  
Old 06-17-2020, 6:05 AM
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Originally Posted by varanidguy View Post
It's funny, if everyone who said voting 3rd party is "throwing your vote away" actually did it, a 3rd party would win or at least gain significant enough ground to become viable. Remember, Lincoln was 3rd party.
Please point me to a third party today that has the same level of support the Republicans had in 1860, or heck, even 1856. Not that it can't happen eventually, but it's not present right now. When there's a viable option then we can talk about it.

Last edited by godofgamblers; 06-17-2020 at 6:06 AM.. Reason: clarification
  #3617  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:24 PM
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Not shocked. I suppose gun owners could riot, burn buildings and cop cars, loot, beat people, etc. Seems to working for some...
  #3618  
Old 06-17-2020, 10:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DB> View Post
It would certainly be worth the effort to file given the state of things - the 2A rights of Californians have certainly been infringed under the CURRENT state of things with CV-19 and riots and looting. None of that was present when this case was filed, or in most of the intervening 11 years.


I know it's rare for rehearings to be granted, but in this case the volatile and rapidly changing landscape would be more than a reasonable reason to at least take the flyer, nothing ventured, nothing gained!!!
It is hard to get the rehearing in. As situations continue to develop, I am fairly sure they didn’t want to touch 2A while things are so volatile. I don’t know what the timeline is on a rehearing petition, but maybe they can kick the can down the road until after the election.
  #3619  
Old 06-18-2020, 12:37 AM
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Is it not just another filing, that worst case they refuse to hear?

Given the current situation where because of the roster, getting any gun is virtually impossible in CA, that is certainly valid "new evidence" of the sort that by definition MUST be considered.

Who is the counsel of record on the case, and can they be contacted and asked to take one last desperate flyer, while holding some MAJOR press conferences to sway the public opinion or at least awareness?

The legal theory is there, the additional effort expended is relatively minimal, and the stakes are VERY high right now. Time to call the state's "bluff" that the roster does not infringe on the ability of a law abiding citizen to exercise their right to self defense.

If one does not take advantage of a crisis, why the heck NOT?!? Not letting a crisis go to waste is the mantra of the enemy, time to use it for OUR advantage!!!!
  #3620  
Old 06-18-2020, 1:39 AM
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it is clear that all the ruling classes are on the same side. the SCOTUS did not want to upset their teammates in California and other places.
  #3621  
Old 06-18-2020, 8:27 AM
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So if the new roster changes (AB 2847) is signed into law, couldn't one re-submit a new lawsuit since it's a change to the original lawsuit (going from 2 areas to microstamp down to 1)? If so, someone should put it up for legal battle and make sure it ends up on Benitez's bench. At least he could write a better argument for the courts when the state re-appeals.
  #3622  
Old 06-18-2020, 9:04 AM
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Originally Posted by varanidguy View Post
The 2A is the red-headed unwanted stepchild of civil rights. Demonstrated by the lack of any action by SCOTUS, and very little action by the lower courts. Both parties at large don't care for it, and many don't even want it to exist.



It's funny, if everyone who said voting 3rd party is "throwing your vote away" actually did it, a 3rd party would win or at least gain significant enough ground to become viable. Remember, Lincoln was 3rd party.
If everyone who voted Republican in deep blue states (like California) in 2016 voted 3rd Party (Libertarian) instead of Republican in the General Election, that would get the Libertarian Party around 15% of the popular vote, which is more than enough to secure federal funding for the party.

Wouldn't change the outcome of the election (because that's based on winner-take-all Electoral College votes which are all going to the Democratic Party anyway), but it would provide much-needed funding to that 3rd Party such that it would elevate their profile significantly - then maybe that would push the Republican Party towards a more civil Libertarian mindset to try and court those votes back, or maybe even to pick a Libertarian to be the running mate.

Then your vote wouldn't be wasted in a state that's gonna go blue anyway.
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  #3623  
Old 06-18-2020, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by cre8nhavoc View Post
So if the new roster changes (AB 2847) is signed into law, couldn't one re-submit a new lawsuit since it's a change to the original lawsuit (going from 2 areas to microstamp down to 1)? If so, someone should put it up for legal battle and make sure it ends up on Benitez's bench. At least he could write a better argument for the courts when the state re-appeals.
Yes we can file a new lawsuit at any time. It would still require our side to spend ungodly amounts of money and at least seven years to reach the supreme court again.
  #3624  
Old 06-18-2020, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by cre8nhavoc View Post
So if the new roster changes (AB 2847) is signed into law, couldn't one re-submit a new lawsuit since it's a change to the original lawsuit (going from 2 areas to microstamp down to 1)? If so, someone should put it up for legal battle and make sure it ends up on Benitez's bench. At least he could write a better argument for the courts when the state re-appeals.
Sure. Let's see what happens in 2030.


CA in 2030: what are guns?
  #3625  
Old 06-18-2020, 12:08 PM
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If everyone who voted Republican in deep blue states (like California) in 2016 voted 3rd Party (Libertarian) instead of Republican in the General Election, that would get the Libertarian Party around 15% of the popular vote, which is more than enough to secure federal funding for the party.

Wouldn't change the outcome of the election (because that's based on winner-take-all Electoral College votes which are all going to the Democratic Party anyway), but it would provide much-needed funding to that 3rd Party such that it would elevate their profile significantly - then maybe that would push the Republican Party towards a more civil Libertarian mindset to try and court those votes back, or maybe even to pick a Libertarian to be the running mate.

Then your vote wouldn't be wasted in a state that's gonna go blue anyway.
Exactly this. IMO, throwing your vote away is voting for the status quo, red vs blue, no other choice. The amount of ground being lost, the broken promises by the R's...this should be a big enough signal but apparently it isn't. Two years the R's had to solidify and expand the 2A, like they promised during campaigns, and they didn't do a single thing, and Trump enacts gun control with executive fiat.

Nobody can convince me to go with the R's now. They're in the same boat with the D's.
  #3626  
Old 06-18-2020, 2:52 PM
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Exactly this. IMO, throwing your vote away is voting for the status quo, red vs blue, no other choice. The amount of ground being lost, the broken promises by the R's...this should be a big enough signal but apparently it isn't. Two years the R's had to solidify and expand the 2A, like they promised during campaigns, and they didn't do a single thing, and Trump enacts gun control with executive fiat.

Nobody can convince me to go with the R's now. They're in the same boat with the D's.

The Republican party is a 3rd party in California. The two biggest parties in California are Democrats and NPP ..

If you want to make a 3rd party bigger just vote Republican.
  #3627  
Old 06-18-2020, 3:22 PM
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The Republican party is a 3rd party in California. The two biggest parties in California are Democrats and NPP ..

If you want to make a 3rd party bigger just vote Republican.
No, Republicans don't give a crap about the 2A (and other important issues), so they don't deserve my vote. They have failed to do anything relevant to help out this community, and have only hurt us.
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Old 06-18-2020, 3:49 PM
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I
Wouldn't change the outcome of the election (because that's based on winner-take-all Electoral College votes which are all going to the Democratic Party anyway),
MUCH better would be to do this to Green Party, not Libertarians. Greens would siphon votes away from democrats.
  #3629  
Old 06-18-2020, 3:55 PM
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No, Republicans don't give a crap about the 2A (and other important issues), so they don't deserve my vote. They have failed to do anything relevant to help out this community, and have only hurt us.
See how well your so-called "democrats" are doing to Seattle right now. Keep voting for dems and CHAZ wont just be in a single state. Itll happen to the whole goddamn country.
  #3630  
Old 06-18-2020, 5:20 PM
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Not shocked. I suppose gun owners could riot, burn buildings and cop cars, loot, beat people, etc. Seems to working for some...
Only works for over emotional teen girls. Old farts are excluded,
  #3631  
Old 06-18-2020, 5:46 PM
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No, Republicans don't give a crap about the 2A (and other important issues), so they don't deserve my vote. They have failed to do anything relevant to help out this community, and have only hurt us.
republicans are merely feeble when it comes to 2a, but democrats are actively against 2a, so i'm not sure how that works out, unless you mean not voting for either
  #3632  
Old 06-19-2020, 8:38 AM
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republicans are merely feeble when it comes to 2a, but democrats are actively against 2a, so i'm not sure how that works out, unless you mean not voting for either
No sir, the Democrats can all kiss it, to put it politely.
  #3633  
Old 06-19-2020, 8:50 AM
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No, Republicans don't give a crap about the 2A (and other important issues), so they don't deserve my vote. They have failed to do anything relevant to help out this community, and have only hurt us.
Precisely the thinking that ensured Clinton lost and Trump won, just the other way around. Most of those independents who voted for the Green Party lean left, but wouldn't vote for Clinton. She lost, and that played a part in it.

If you want to take your ball and go home, instead of grimacing, holding your nose, and voting for your best available option, you are just helping your opponent.

Good for you, you stuck to your beliefs, and ultimately helped your opponent. Pretty sure the libs learned their lesson from 2016, and will vote for anyone on the ticket, just to beat Trump. And that's what it takes.

And by the way, you are wrong about Republicans. While California and 7 other blue states have certainly gotten worse, the rest of the US enjoys INCREASED gun rights, not lesser rights.
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Old 06-19-2020, 9:17 AM
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I've been a registered Libertarian for forty years so I understand third parties. I'll bet no one here can even name a Libertarian cadidate for national office. In my opinion they embarest themselves with the idiots they ran in 2016. In my younger dumber days I worked to try to get a few elected. The more I interacted with them the more I realized that even if one of them won nothing would change. I voted for Trump because he wasn't the same old goods. You can see how much he is hated by the swamp. Kinda proves he is trying to change things. I will vote for him again because he has more to do. It is hard to get anything done when everyone in Washington is trying to destroy you. I'm hoping his second term he won't have to worry about reelection so if we can get him some more votes in the house and build on our hold on the senate. We can get the courts straightened out and pass some real pro second amendment bills. I know some on here will call me crazy and stupid but look at your other choice. Get involved and vote. In Ca. it's a good way to give the finger to all the vultures in Sacramento.

PS. Blame spell check.
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Old 06-19-2020, 10:37 AM
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I've been a registered Libertarian for forty years so I understand third parties. I'll bet no one here can even name a Libertarian cadidate for national office. In my opinion they embarest themselves with the idiots they ran in 2016. In my younger dumber days I worked to try to get a few elected. The more I interacted with them the more I realized that even if one of them won nothing would change. I voted for Trump because he wasn't the same old goods. You can see how much he is hated by the swamp. Kinda proves he is trying to change things. I will vote for him again because he has more to do. It is hard to get anything done when everyone in Washington is trying to destroy you. I'm hoping his second term he won't have to worry about reelection so if we can get him some more votes in the house and build on our hold on the senate. We can get the courts straightened out and pass some real pro second amendment bills. I know some on here will call me crazy and stupid but look at your other choice. Get involved and vote. In Ca. it's a good way to give the finger to all the vultures in Sacramento.

PS. Blame spell check.
I agree 100%. At least the enemy will know we aren't defeated.
  #3636  
Old 06-19-2020, 11:08 AM
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Precisely the thinking that ensured Clinton lost and Trump won, just the other way around. Most of those independents who voted for the Green Party lean left, but wouldn't vote for Clinton. She lost, and that played a part in it.

If you want to take your ball and go home, instead of grimacing, holding your nose, and voting for your best available option, you are just helping your opponent.

Good for you, you stuck to your beliefs, and ultimately helped your opponent. Pretty sure the libs learned their lesson from 2016, and will vote for anyone on the ticket, just to beat Trump. And that's what it takes.

And by the way, you are wrong about Republicans. While California and 7 other blue states have certainly gotten worse, the rest of the US enjoys INCREASED gun rights, not lesser rights.
What I oppose is gun control, so that means I oppose the Republicans. Trump in his tenure so far has caused more damage than good to the 2A. The Republicans are limp members when it comes to the 2A - and other civil rights. YOUR way of thinking is of the old guard that got us here. Remember the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
  #3637  
Old 06-19-2020, 12:51 PM
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The thread has drifted from the case to politics, and that's off-topic for this forum.

Feel free to start a new thread in http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/f...play.php?f=71; realize it's pretty much old ground, with some different named players.
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No one will really understand politics until they understand that politicians are not trying to solve our problems. They are trying to solve their own problems - of which getting elected and re-elected are number one and number two. Whatever is number three is far behind.
- Thomas Sowell
I've been saying that for years ...

There is no value at all complaining or analyzing or reading tea leaves to decide what these bills really mean or actually do; any bill with a chance to pass will be bad for gun owners.

The details only count after the Governor signs the bills.


Gregg Easterbrook’s “Law of Doomsaying”: Predict catastrophe no later than ten years hence but no sooner than five years away — soon enough to terrify people but distant enough that they will not remember that you were wrong.


Not a lawyer, just Some Guy On The Interwebs.


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